Please Don't Laugh At Me

[jk3a]

I've been running really poorly lately and need to post a very basic hand. Villian is unknown, I just sat.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $71.45
UTG+1: $70.20
Hero: $94.50
Button: $105.60
SB: $158.75
BB: $157.45

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $4.5</font>, Button folds, SB calls, 2 folds.

Flop: 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($11, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $6</font>, Hero...

[Paul Thomson]

haha

[Kilillan]

20

[bilbo-san]

$18

[Paul Thomson]

callings fine. and raising the turn.

[Barrin6]

This board is perfect to slowplay imo. Raising here on the flop does not extract any more value. Call and use your position to your advantage. Only draw he can have is 68 for an open ended straight draw.

[Kilillan]

19$

[Paul Thomson]

i like calling. becuase they're aren't many cards that kill your action.

[Kilillan]

21$

[Novles]

$19.99

[Paul Thomson]

[ QUOTE ]
$18

[/ QUOTE ]

hey bilbo -

why do u like raising?

There's no draws. And if he has KQ or AQ. There are hardly any turn cards that kill our action.

plus a smart player knows how to fold that flop to a raise with AQ...see other post from today.

plus we have position, so villain might double barrell. it's easy to control the pot on the turn in the sense that we can bloat the pot on the turn.

[pual]

[ QUOTE ]
callings fine. and raising the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. Usually a donkbet out like that is a weak Q or draw. Not too many draws out there so I think you get more value out of him by letting him bluff the turn, or hit two pair, or continue thinking his weak Q is good.

[orange]

$12

[bilbo-san]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
$18

[/ QUOTE ]

hey bilbo -

why do u like raising?

There's no draws. And if he has KQ or AQ. There are hardly any turn cards that kill our action.

plus a smart player knows how to fold that flop to a raise with AQ...see other post from today.

plus we have position, so villain might double barrell. it's easy to control the pot on the turn in the sense that we can bloat the pot on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Few reasons.

Mostly because he can only really have a strong hand or he's "donking for information" or he has 68 or 46.

If he's donking for info, calling and raising the turn isn't going to win much more anyway, if he bets the turn at all (unless he's a showdown monkey, in which case it hardly matters).

If he has the draw or a strong hand, I want to dance. Make it easy to get all the chips in the middle in 3 streets.

[chopchoi]

[ QUOTE ]
callings fine. and raising the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

need to build the pot.

[KLJ]

$11

[Paul Thomson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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$18

[/ QUOTE ]

hey bilbo -

why do u like raising?

There's no draws. And if he has KQ or AQ. There are hardly any turn cards that kill our action.

plus a smart player knows how to fold that flop to a raise with AQ...see other post from today.

plus we have position, so villain might double barrell. it's easy to control the pot on the turn in the sense that we can bloat the pot on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Few reasons.

Mostly because he can only really have a strong hand or he's "donking for information" or he has 68 or 46.

If he's donking for info, calling and raising the turn isn't going to win much more anyway, if he bets the turn at all (unless he's a showdown monkey, in which case it hardly matters).

If he has the draw or a strong hand, I want to dance. Make it easy to get all the chips in the middle in 3 streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

but a good oppoent can get away from AQ and a decent opponent should get away from QK. And the chance that he has either of those hands is very few.

so for him to have a "strong" hand. he either needs a set ot 2-pair. And then we're getting it in no matter what.

He almost always has middle pair or nothing. So why push it?

[Kilillan]

no donk is getting away from AQ or Qk here and random people very rarely double or triple barrel.

Building the pot now is much more value than expecting a random second barrel

[Paul Thomson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
callings fine. and raising the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

need to build the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

agree. but what's the best way to do that?

[keikiwai]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
$18

[/ QUOTE ]

hey bilbo -

why do u like raising?

There's no draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say there's no draws until a 9 falls.

[Praetor]

i would raise here

you will have to raise the turn if you just call here, and raising the turn looks ALOT stronger.

[Paul Thomson]

[ QUOTE ]
no donk is getting away from AQ or Qk here and random people very rarely double or triple barrel.

Building the pot now is much more value than expecting a random second barrel

[/ QUOTE ]

There's one Q left in the deck. so there's 8 different ways to make AQ or KQ. and maybe no donk is getting away from QK or QA, but who says he's a donk (villain is unknown). And if he can't get away from it, then we can get it from him on the next 2 streets.

[Paul Thomson]

[ QUOTE ]
i would raise here

you will have to raise the turn if you just call here, and raising the turn looks ALOT stronger.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is true.

[chopchoi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
callings fine. and raising the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

need to build the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

agree. but what's the best way to do that?

[/ QUOTE ]

so call, villain bets 12 on turn, hero pops it to 30 and pushes the river? yeah, i guess that would work too. Why do you prefer this to raising the flop, though?

[Kilillan]

it's gonna be really hard to get his stack in the middle by just calling the flop here.

And the offchance an overcard to the queen falls which can kill your action...

And everyone playing .50/1 is a donk until proven innocent

[Paul Thomson]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
$18

[/ QUOTE ]

hey bilbo -

why do u like raising?

There's no draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say there's no draws until a 9 falls.

[/ QUOTE ]

he called from the sb. and it would have to be a single gap connector (let's assume it'll have to be suited). There's 4 ways to make that hand. and it's probably not in his range.

[keikiwai]

well, if villain doesn't have a hand now... what can he improve to, that stays second best on the turn? not much

so start building the pot now... you're not going to get much more value out of him on the turn if he doesn't already have a hand

[snakekilla88]

$17-21

[Paul Thomson]

[ QUOTE ]
it's gonna be really hard to get his stack in the middle by just calling the flop here.

And the offchance an overcard to the queen falls which can kill your action...

And everyone playing .50/1 is a donk until proven innocent

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear ya. I'm usually the first person to say bet the POT (not 3/4) when you hit a big hand on the flop.

I agree with everyone here. We have to get as much money in the pot. But what's the best way to do it.

If you raise then almost any villain that doesn't have QK or QA is folding. So only one of those cards is a scare card and the other actually helps the good cause.

I don't think all villains are 'donks' until proven otherwise. all villains are typical until proven otherwise.

The biggest fault with raising the turn is that it looks very strong and villain might be able to get away from it. But we also give them a chance to catch a 2nd best hand or bluff.

[keikiwai]

[ QUOTE ]

If you raise then almost any villain that doesn't have QK or QA is folding. So only one of those cards is a scare card and the other actually helps the good cause.


[/ QUOTE ]

don't forget that villain is the one who donked into us

[Dan Bitel]

this flop is scary dry and we have the deck crippled. Just calling here is absolutely fine

[Paul Thomson]

[ QUOTE ]
this flop is scary dry and we have the deck crippled. Just calling here is absolutely fine

[/ QUOTE ]

don't be a wus. you can say it...it's better! lol.

raising obviously isn't bad here either.

[kitaristi0]

[ QUOTE ]
$11

[/ QUOTE ]

[gimmetheloot]

I would say something but meh.

Anyway, OP: depends on your image. I raise this because I am very aggro.

[Fedfan691]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say something but meh.

Anyway, OP: depends on your image. I raise this because I am very aggro.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if it seems both sides have there advantages and disadvantages, isn't this a good way to decide which to do? If you're aggro raise, if you're not call?

[Barrin6]

You build the pot by calling. There's only 1 more Queen, and there's a small chance villian has it

Barrin6

[bilbo-san]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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$18

[/ QUOTE ]

hey bilbo -

why do u like raising?

There's no draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say there's no draws until a 9 falls.

[/ QUOTE ]

he called from the sb. and it would have to be a single gap connector (let's assume it'll have to be suited). There's 4 ways to make that hand. and it's probably not in his range.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a recurring theme for you: you give unknown SSNLers WAY too much credit for being too tight and/or thinking a lot more than they really do.

As I said, if he has some moderate hand, yeah calling MIGHT get one more bet from him (but he might also c/f the turn). But stacking him EVERY TIME he has a strong hand/draw here is essential to your longterm EV.

If nothing else, you raise, he folds, you open a note and put "leads weak hands on dry boards OOP, folds to aggression". That'll be pretty useful info later.

[Mr_Donktastic]

Something between calling and pushing.

[Dan Bitel]

bilbo,

how many strong hands can he have? And what strong hands can he have that he doesnt want to get in on the turn, but wants to get in on teh flop?

[orange]

btw, I also don't mind calling as much, as I float alot of these flops. But my standard is a small raise.

[olof86]

This is a weak hand from villian a big percent of the time, I'd just call.

[bilbo-san]

[ QUOTE ]
bilbo,

how many strong hands can he have? And what strong hands can he have that he doesnt want to get in on the turn, but wants to get in on teh flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. Maybe you are right. I guess there are no scary cards for him on the turn, since it is so unlikely he has a Q.

I guess if I had middle set I would raise for sure because AQ is then a much bigger part of his range and will almost always call, making it easier to get it in on the turn and river.

[recallme]

Never raise. With which cards he call?

[ImsaKidd]

Fold, hope villain shows so you can see where you're at.

Lol. I like calling in these spots cause you call, they "put you on AK", and fire a HUGE MASSIVE ASLJFNSDJV turn bet, and you're like "LOLOTRAPPEDU".

And you can still get stackilicious action by the river.

[David1234]

raise to 9

[Cormia]

I don't have much problem with either raising or calling. I tend to habitually raise these leads, so I'm more likely to get played back at that maybe other people are, but that might also be a leak in other areas. On the other hand, unless you have that extra image or villian is a retard, flopping top set on a dry almost never gets you anywhere near the monies. Villian almost never has TP and doesn't want to felt it. I'd love to stack villian here, but honestly, I think the greater EV line is to go for the few extra than the stack, since villian almost never has something that can call.

[simuk]

You are scared of nothing so perhaps a call is fine. Alternatively I would 4 bet him but no more.

[ZingyDNA]

why get tricky w/ an unknown? Raise to

[ QUOTE ]
$17-21

[/ QUOTE ]

[bhudson]

So much for a very basic hand, eh jk? /images/graemlins/grin.gif