bum ethics

[Metric]

Bums represent a bit of a conundrum for me. Basically, almost all the time I don't feel like helping bums because I'm preoccupied with my own life and issues. Yet, I certainly feel sorry for the ones I encounter -- and I feel that I SHOULD take pity on the ones I encounter.

However, virtually all encounters with bums end up making me feel like crap. Typically I feel one of two ways:

1) I feel like a royal a-hole for denying some poor homeless guy something fairly trivial that he desperately wants.

2) I feel like an utter pussy for allowing some idiot to use some BS "emotional extortion" line to get my attention and convince me to do something for him.

There is virtually never a third case, because the most "successful" bums (and so the ones I am most likely to encounter) are the ones that make maximum use of the "emotional extortion" lines.

So mostly I do my best to avoid bum encounters at all cost. However, the other day I let my guard down, filled up at a gas station I tend to avoid for exactly this reason, and ended up being talked into driving a bum (who was, ahem, "afraid for his life" due to rival bum) across town to "safety." I then suffered from an acute case of feeling #2 -- not because I minded helping, of course, but because I felt completely owned by his obviously BS "tactics."

Has anyone developed a solid way of thinking about this kind of stuff that allows a bum confrontation that doesn't leave you feeling like a turd one way or the other?

[chezlaw]

The other day had a couple of buskers get on the train (not sure they qualify as bums) who sang two songs, one was a musical rendition of the destination of the train, the other was a protest song against not being allowed to shave in the station toilets. Most gave money (someone even bought a cd) and there was much smiling.

A begger sat with a hardboard cardboard sign saying 'homeless: money needed for [censored] and booze'. I just hope he didn't take my money and furtively buy a cheese sandwich.

chez

[luckyme]

For me, it's a matter of trying to help.
I put in from 5 to 20 hrs a week on a variety of community aid endeavors, ones I'm convinced are helping.
I don't donate directly to bums for the obvious reason that it doesn't really help and in fact is an obstacle to being able to provide meaningful help. Iow, my hours per week would be much more effective is misguided souls would quit being Enablers.

luckyme

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
Bums represent a bit of a conundrum for me. Basically, almost all the time I don't feel like helping bums because I'm preoccupied with my own life and issues. Yet, I certainly feel sorry for the ones I encounter -- and I feel that I SHOULD take pity on the ones I encounter.

However, virtually all encounters with bums end up making me feel like crap. Typically I feel one of two ways:

1) I feel like a royal a-hole for denying some poor homeless guy something fairly trivial that he desperately wants.

2) I feel like an utter pussy for allowing some idiot to use some BS "emotional extortion" line to get my attention and convince me to do something for him.

There is virtually never a third case, because the most "successful" bums (and so the ones I am most likely to encounter) are the ones that make maximum use of the "emotional extortion" lines.

So mostly I do my best to avoid bum encounters at all cost. However, the other day I let my guard down, filled up at a gas station I tend to avoid for exactly this reason, and ended up being talked into driving a bum (who was, ahem, "afraid for his life" due to rival bum) across town to "safety." I then suffered from an acute case of feeling #2 -- not because I minded helping, of course, but because I felt completely owned by his obviously BS "tactics."

Has anyone developed a solid way of thinking about this kind of stuff that allows a bum confrontation that doesn't leave you feeling like a turd one way or the other?

[/ QUOTE ]

the correct answer for you is to find a way to do the thing that maximizes your quality of life without lowering the quality of life of the bum.

you need to first decide whether or not a bum is allowed to transfer the burden for his quality of life to another. you need to make peace with that decision and you need to be willing to defend your position without shame or guilt within the context of your divine right to persue your own quality of life.

i see them as an opportunity to play the sheep and goats lottery game and so i quite happily gamble $1 in almost 100% of cases.

ray

[keith123]

1. Homeless people usually have plenty of shelter and free food. I suppose homeless people in rural areas would not have access to this though.

2. Most homeless people aren't just down on their luck. They are mentally ill or severe addicts, for the most part.

3. Their lives are probably pretty crappy.

So, knowing they have food and shelter and virtually no chance of recovery without a restructuring of the way our society deals with homelessness in general, and knowing that their lives are pretty lousy, all you need to decide is whether or not you think people in such a lousy state that are willing to further humble themselves by begging, deserve any spending cash, beer money, or whatever. Once you figure out where you stand on that, your decision next time you run into a bum will be easy.

I pretty much give them money at the same rate I'd buy a nephew of mine ice cream if he asked for it. If I am in line to get into a bar, I have a hard time not giving some money, just like I'd have a hard time not buying an ice cream for my nephew if I was in line at the ice cream truck.

In general, if I'm feeling nice, I give him a buck or two. If I am in a rush or don't feel like dealing with him, I won't. Sometimes I give a decent chunk of change, usually when I am feeling especially lucky in life.

[Metric]

[ QUOTE ]
the correct answer for you is to find a way to do the thing that maximizes your quality of life without lowering the quality of life of the bum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another way to phrase the problem, I suppose, is that my desires are contradictory.

1) I WANT to help at least a significant fraction of the time.

2) I really, truly DETEST being manipulated emotionally, which is the game nearly 100% of these people are playing.

Being forced to the conclusion demanded by either point seems unsatisfying. Am I alone in this, or do any of you guys face the same basic problem?

[revots33]

I don't give money to bums, or to people who come to my door, or charity groups holding tin cans at stoplights.

The reason for this is, I am likely not giving money to those who most deserve it (or whose causes I most want to support) - I am giving it to those who happen to be the most aggressive askers. Often these type of askers "shame" people into donating, when the money would be much better donated elsewhere.

I choose my charities I want to support and mail them a check. One of those is a community food bank that feeds the homeless. That's better than giving a homeless person money directly IMO.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the correct answer for you is to find a way to do the thing that maximizes your quality of life without lowering the quality of life of the bum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another way to phrase the problem, I suppose, is that my desires are contradictory.

1) I WANT to help at least a significant fraction of the time.

2) I really, truly DETEST being manipulated emotionally, which is the game nearly 100% of these people are playing.

Being forced to the conclusion demanded by either point seems unsatisfying. Am I alone in this, or do any of you guys face the same basic problem?

[/ QUOTE ]
Just give to the ones who straightforwardly tell you they need a handout. or the ones who 'earn' their payout with a bit of humour.

That's what I do.

chez

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the correct answer for you is to find a way to do the thing that maximizes your quality of life without lowering the quality of life of the bum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another way to phrase the problem, I suppose, is that my desires are contradictory.

1) I WANT to help at least a significant fraction of the time.

2) I really, truly DETEST being manipulated emotionally, which is the game nearly 100% of these people are playing.

Being forced to the conclusion demanded by either point seems unsatisfying. Am I alone in this, or do any of you guys face the same basic problem?

[/ QUOTE ]

ok that's very honest on your part.

now in this game we assume that the bum is not going to modify their current strategy, so then, your strategy needs to be to find a way to adapt to the bums strategy.

have you tried the strategy of unconditional forgiveness?

ray

[Metric]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason for this is, I am likely not giving money to those who most deserve it (or whose causes I most want to support) - I am giving it to those who happen to be the most aggressive askers.

[/ QUOTE ]
I definately agree, and this leads to a sort of "ignore the overly aggressive askers" approach which I have been using, but occationally (as happened the other day) I find myself in a situation where I am one-on-one and have to engage in an unwanted conversation, making the situation much more personal. Basically, I can no longer ignore the asker, because he's appealing directly to me personally for some kind of help (and it wasn't money, directly, either).

In this sort of situation, can you see yourself being comfortable with a "I really don't care, now get away from me or I'll hurt you myself" (which would have been necessary to stop the conversation) type of response? I'm not afraid to "up the ante" in this way, but I don't think I'd feel really great about it later.

[Metric]

[ QUOTE ]
Just give to the ones who straightforwardly tell you they need a handout. or the ones who 'earn' their payout with a bit of humour.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've done that in the past, but it's been a long time since I've encountered one of these types. Most of the time it's the more aggressive sob story that only requires two dollars (or whatever) to make the universe completely right again.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just give to the ones who straightforwardly tell you they need a handout. or the ones who 'earn' their payout with a bit of humour.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've done that in the past, but it's been a long time since I've encountered one of these types. Most of the time it's the more aggressive sob story that only requires two dollars (or whatever) to make the universe completely right again.

[/ QUOTE ]
Stick with and persuade others to do the same. I think Ray's got it wrong and they do adapt. The problem is they are agressive because it works.

the ones who wont go away - engage them in conversation. Ask them the question you posed in this thread?

I got agressive with a windscreen washer once (not violent) - I'd had a really bad day but still regret it. I can ignore people to Olympic standard which seems to work well.

chez

[ojc02]

The way I think about it is: "I am responsible for my own wellbeing, and he is responsible for his."

I feel no guilt whatsoever in denying his/her request. As has been said before, in urban areas they often do have access to shelter and food from charity organizations.

Also, by giving him your money you are incentivizing him to continue to look pathetic and beg. Look, I'm not saying that their situation doesn't suck, but they are the ones responsible for getting up and finding something productive to do. If nobody ever gave them money they would stop begging pretty quickly and maybe be better off in the long run.

If you really want to help then donate to a reputable private charity. A charity will also ensure that your money is actually spent on food, shelter, and helping to employ them, rather than being spent on alcohol or drugs. (Not saying that it's all spent on alcohol or drugs, but there's a significant chance that it will be.)

[Metric]

I have no problem with forgiving the guy -- he's only doing what works for him. My problem is that I can't stand myself when I fold under that particular combination of "sob story" and "persistent aggression."

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no problem with forgiving the guy -- he's only doing what works for him. My problem is that I can't stand myself when I fold under that particular combination of "sob story" and "persistent aggression."

[/ QUOTE ]

say no to those that try to transfer the burden of their well being to you as if you're the cause of their problem. use the strat. of unconditional forgiveness to quickly move on from the experience.

say a $1 yes to those in a neutral posture - i.e. the guy on the street curb with a sign and a bucket - accept the terms and conditions of his sign at face value (i.e. assume he's telling the truth). and then raise your quality of life by admiring the version of yourself that voluntarily behaved that way.

for the capitalistic types (i.e. the traffic window washers), deal with them as you would any other merchant. i've seen people with signs on their car that read "will let you wash my windows for free."

ray

[keith123]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no problem with forgiving the guy -- he's only doing what works for him. My problem is that I can't stand myself when I fold under that particular combination of "sob story" and "persistent aggression."

[/ QUOTE ]

are you generally a total wimp?

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no problem with forgiving the guy -- he's only doing what works for him. My problem is that I can't stand myself when I fold under that particular combination of "sob story" and "persistent aggression."

[/ QUOTE ]

I know exactly what you mean, and my only advice would be to try harder not to give them money (btw...I really don't think you should give a bum a ride across town, man...I'd rather give them 20 for a cab...).

I've become pretty 'succesful' at dealing with bums. I give money to the quiet ones, and the friendly ones who don't ask for money. I simply don't give it to the ones you are describing. It's very clear what they are doing, and i don't participate. But unless I'm busy, I don't end the conversation. I'm more than willing to shoot the [censored] with a homeless guy...if they use the sob story, I just say that I don't have any money to spare. I'll say it 5 times if I have to, and with my best feigned 'I'm really sorry'. Somehow, I consider this tact retaliation. We both know the other party is lying...It's kind of like a boycott, too. Hopefully, I'm reducing the use of aggressive panhandling as a strategy, and increasing quiet and friendly bums /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Living in SF bay area, there are more bums than I have money, so being selective is pretty easy.

Sometimes of course, I get caught alone on a dark street by one of these guys, and I usually give them money to diffuse the situation. Unless he's a bum with a gun, I could deal with any violence, but I no longer look for fights with people. In that case, it's really more of a mugging. Frankly, I hate myself when I do that...I guess it's a similar feeling. I should probably work on standing up to those guys more, but I find myself being so friendly that the pesonal space between us disappears quickly, and to effectively defend oneself, you need to take a more wary approach and keep a good 5 feet between you. (but i digress)

[madnak]

I help people out if it's no big deal, and if it is I don't. Sometimes my mood swings result in an unexpected $20 "donation" or something, but there are much worse things to splurge on. Although, if I'm spending that much on drugs and booze, it really oughtta be my drugs and booze.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no problem with forgiving the guy -- he's only doing what works for him. My problem is that I can't stand myself when I fold under that particular combination of "sob story" and "persistent aggression."

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, I grew up in NYC, worked in Manhattan in the Mayor Dinkins days when you literally had to step over the homeless on almost every block.

My defense mechanism for aggressive panhandlers (and the one employed by most NYers I'd guess) was to keep my head down and keep walking. Seems to work in 99.9% of the cases, and will certainly eliminate the "I got bullied into giving this guy money" problem.

[siegfriedandroy]

[ QUOTE ]
For me, it's a matter of trying to help.
I put in from 5 to 20 hrs a week on a variety of community aid endeavors, ones I'm convinced are helping.
I don't donate directly to bums for the obvious reason that it doesn't really help and in fact is an obstacle to being able to provide meaningful help. Iow, my hours per week would be much more effective is misguided souls would quit being Enablers.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you desire to 'help'?

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you desire to 'help'?

[/ QUOTE ]

Social ape genes. Same reason I enjoy screwin, sugar and fatty foods.

luckyme

[Metric]

Yeah, there was physically no threat involved in this particular situation -- I mean I quite literally could have killed him in about ten seconds. It was more the fact that it was freezing cold outside, the guy seemed pathetic, and he was able to persistently plead with me to "save his life" for several minutes while I stood there pumping gas.

[Metric]

[ QUOTE ]
are you generally a total wimp?

[/ QUOTE ]
No.

[samsonite2100]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no problem with forgiving the guy -- he's only doing what works for him. My problem is that I can't stand myself when I fold under that particular combination of "sob story" and "persistent aggression."

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel the exact same way. My personal stance has become the following:

- I will often help out bums who are laidback, cool, funny, non-threatening, and don't waste my time with some BS sob story.

- I never help out bums who are emotionally manipulative, overbearing liars.

In this sense, I feel like I'm treating bums essentially the same way I treat other people, in that I'm willing to go out of my way for people who are cool, but not for obvious ass-holes.

[pokeraz]

I generally tell bums no when approached for money except when they claim they are hungry. I'll then almost 100% of the time offer to buy them a meal. I never give cash directly. Interestingly enough, I get turned down at least half of the time. They just want the money and I'll blow them off. I've had some interesting encounters with the other half. I actually hired a guy once that I bought lunch for. Turned out to be a damn nice guy who ran into a horrible string of luck and ended up with no way out. The guy has worked here over five years now. They're not all that way of course, but you can find the ones who are worth helping.

[keith123]

teach the bums how to play poker.

[tolbiny]

[ QUOTE ]

Has anyone developed a solid way of thinking about this kind of stuff that allows a bum confrontation that doesn't leave you feeling like a turd one way or the other?

[/ QUOTE ]

Where the hell is Nielso when you need him? Anway freedomainradio (http://www.freedomainradio.com/freedomain-radio-Listen-In-1.htm) In podcast 68 he talks about the welfare state and the poor in which he talks about understanding the situations of why they are in them and how to really help.

[Nielsio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Has anyone developed a solid way of thinking about this kind of stuff that allows a bum confrontation that doesn't leave you feeling like a turd one way or the other?

[/ QUOTE ]

Where the hell is Nielso when you need him? Anway freedomainradio (http://www.freedomainradio.com/freedomain-radio-Listen-In-1.htm) In podcast 68 he talks about the welfare state and the poor in which he talks about understanding the situations of why they are in them and how to really help.

[/ QUOTE ]


Sorry, dude. I was AWOL/MIA from my regular internet action. Moved to Amsterdam, etc.

But yeah, there are many many dimensions to the 'poor' thing. Checks the pods and thy shalt know.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For me, it's a matter of trying to help.
I put in from 5 to 20 hrs a week on a variety of community aid endeavors, ones I'm convinced are helping.
I don't donate directly to bums for the obvious reason that it doesn't really help and in fact is an obstacle to being able to provide meaningful help. Iow, my hours per week would be much more effective is misguided souls would quit being Enablers.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you desire to 'help'?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably because he's an evil atheist with no compassion in his cold, black heart.

[HeavilyArmed]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Homeless people...

[/ QUOTE ]

OP was talking about bums. They are not homeless. They live in my parks and other public areas fouling all that they touch with excrement and urine and used needles and garbage and crime.

Jail them.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
2. Most homeless people aren't just down on their luck. They are mentally ill or severe addicts, for the most part.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yuhuh.

Lost my bindle awhile ago, never had my hand out though, but, yes, a ridiculously high number of the homeless have those two problems.

[ QUOTE ]
teach the bums how to play poker optimally.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite the best of solutions for many of them though. Probably why some of them end up on the streets in the first place.

Aggressive panhandlers should be locked up or hosed down from a hydrant. Especially this woman: Shaky Lady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margita_Bangová)

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2. Most homeless people aren't just down on their luck. They are mentally ill or severe addicts, for the most part.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yuhuh.

Lost my bindle awhile ago, never had my hand out though, but, yes, a ridiculously high number of the homeless have those two problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually the majority do not. However, most of the street homeless probably do. Street homeless represent a small but very visible proportion of the total homeless.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2. Most homeless people aren't just down on their luck. They are mentally ill or severe addicts, for the most part.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yuhuh.

Lost my bindle awhile ago, never had my hand out though, but, yes, a ridiculously high number of the homeless have those two problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually the majority do not. However, most of the street homeless probably do. Street homeless represent a small but very visible proportion of the total homeless.

[/ QUOTE ]

No argument there. That's a different group of homeless, though, families, etc. moving from friend to family to friend, for one. Note I said high number, not high percentage. Feeling nitty today for some reason.

As for bums that make their nut with a cup out or a hat out, they have no redeeming value. Aggressive ones are a scourge, and are a detriment to a city's safety, for people and tourists.

And then there are the urban hoboes who certainly can work and create income for themselves, but disdain the idea of keeping a place. Those people have never disappeared, either.

Took a while to get where I am today, but that's not something I'd return to voluntarily. It's too big a climb.

[madnak]

I don't mean to get all fuzzy-wuzzy, but I'm not inclined to say any human being has no redeeming value. At any rate, knowing what compulsive need is like makes it hard for me to refuse a desperate person, even if they are just looking for a score. And knowing how nice it feels to get a bonus at work makes it easy to give things to people - even if they're scammers it can make them happy.

The utilitarian stuff is less relevant to me. If there's even a relatively small chance that someone in my immediate vicinity really needs help, I usually prefer to err on the side of caution. And since it's impossible to tell for sure whether someone is a scammer or a genuine case, 90% of the time I'll be giving to scammers. Hey, I spend less on it than most people spend on cable television, and at least it makes me feel like I'm trying to fight the alienation that exists all about me. Chances are they don't feel any kind of personal conncetion, and they probably just shake their heads at the "sucker," but it keeps me rooted in the world and without it I'd be one step closer to sliding into my bottomless hole.

[samsonite2100]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mean to get all fuzzy-wuzzy, but I'm not inclined to say any human being has no redeeming value. At any rate, knowing what compulsive need is like makes it hard for me to refuse a desperate person, even if they are just looking for a score. And knowing how nice it feels to get a bonus at work makes it easy to give things to people - even if they're scammers it can make them happy.

The utilitarian stuff is less relevant to me. If there's even a relatively small chance that someone in my immediate vicinity really needs help, I usually prefer to err on the side of caution. And since it's impossible to tell for sure whether someone is a scammer or a genuine case, 90% of the time I'll be giving to scammers. Hey, I spend less on it than most people spend on cable television, and at least it makes me feel like I'm trying to fight the alienation that exists all about me. Chances are they don't feel any kind of personal conncetion, and they probably just shake their heads at the "sucker," but it keeps me rooted in the world and without it I'd be one step closer to sliding into my bottomless hole.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is generally a very healthy attitude for people who play a lot of poker (assuming you do) to have.