For the Christians on the form.

[Carded]

Seems to me that often Christians make the mistake of trying to prove of show the existences of God directly. While the bible teaches the method is otherwise.

John 14:5-9 5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Summarily, Jesus is our proof/revelation/knowledge of God. Our debate isn’t starting with proving God exists. Jesus did exist on earth. The foundational question to answer: Is Jesus God? My answer is: Yes.

[arahant]

I really don't want to hijack your thread, but I do have a question...Is jesus really the foundational issue? Would it be fair to say that before Jesus appeared on earth, the Jews were following the revealed word of god?

Also, do not all Christians believe that Jesus WAS God, at least in some sense? Or are there some that view him more literally as the son of God...?

BTW, I'd like to take this oppurtunity to learn about theology...or at least carded's theology...so no digressions from all you unruly, argumentative atheists!

[John21]

[ QUOTE ]
The foundational question to answer: Is Jesus God? My answer is: Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the point of demarcation with me. Jesus never said that he was God - he said he was the way/path to God. Men/mortals declared he was God. This might seem like pure semantics, but in my mind it's the factor that transforms a gospel of self-fulfillment and/or redemption into one of social ideology.

There's a very, very big difference between saying "someone is an American," and saying "they are America."

[Evo-Creationist]

Good question Carded ---

Here is my simple comment:

Jesus is God but God is not Jesus.

To put a clumsy analogy with my thought - If you and I played Second Life and encountered each other, I would know your character to be you but not the you to be your character. It is in this relation that we understand that Jesus is 100% man and 100% God.

As for proving God exists, I don't think that is possible. What is possible, in my line of thinking, is to prove God is the Alpha and Omega and all science dwells within.

[txag007]

John 10:30 - "I and the Father are one."

[Carded]

Also, Jesus claims to me be God in:

John 8:56-59

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad.”

57 The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am! 59 At that point they picked up stones to throw at him. But Jesus was hidden from them and left

The group knew he was claiming to be God, which is why they intend to stone him.
Jesus is referring to Exodus 3:14 when claims I Am!

14 God replied to Moses, “I Am Who I Am. Say this to the people of Israel: I Am has sent me to you.”

[51cards]

So you think that my second life character is 100% me.

Can you continue the anology, what happened at the ascension?

Do you believe I am just an avatar for the real me(my soul or somesuch)?

Have you thought about writing a book? Working title: "Understand God Through Analogies With Online RPGs"