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View Full Version : Govt scam #459276: fluoride in the water


Nielsio
12-05-2006, 10:14 AM
By a friend:

After reading an article from Rothbard about how inefficient fluoride in water is, I started reading studies on Google Scholar. What I found shocked me.

Here are the SCIENTIFIC FACTS:

1. Fluoride is a great help in reducing cavities, esp. from 5 to 9 years old, when in toothpaste or supplement form. It is also shown to strenghten bones in adults.
2. Fluoride in water is USELESS, and may even be slightly harmful. The idea that fluoride in water helped to cure cavities is an old a priori which is now being disproven by newer studies.
3. Almost all of the fluoride in water is wasted- to water lawns, to flush toilets, and in water ingested by non-5-to-9 year olds.
4. A condition, fluorosis, results from exposure to fluoride in water. Fluorosis rots one's teeth and may lower children's intelligence.



Here are extracts from some studies:


http://www.blackwell-synergy.c.....alCode=ipd
International Journal of Paediatric Dentistry
Volume 11 Issue 5 Page 372 - September 2001
Dental fluorosis and caries experience in relation to three different drinking water fluoride levels in South Africa
S. R. Grobler1, A. J. Louw2 & T. J. van W. Kotze1

Summary.

Objectives.The purpose of this study was to determine the relationship between caries experience, degree of fluorosis and different concentrations of fluoride in the drinking water of children.

Sample and methods.The study included 282 children aged 10–15 years, who lived continuously since birth in three different naturally fluoridated areas (Leeu Gamka, 3·0; Kuboes 0·48 and Sanddrif 0·19 p.p.m. F), with virtually no dental care or any fluoride therapy. The teeth of the children were examined for caries using the DMFT index according to the WHO criteria and for fluorosis, using Dean's criteria according to the WHO guidelines.

Results.The prevalence of fluorosis (scores 2, 3, 4 and 5) among the school children was 47% in Sanddrif, 50% in Kuboes and 95% in Leeu Gamka. Almost half the children in the two low fluoride areas had no fluorosis (scores 0 and 1), whereas only 5% in Leeu Gamka had no fluorosis. Of the children in Sanddrif, 42·5% had very mild/mild (scores 2 and 3) fluorosis, 44·3% in Kuboes and 34·1% in Leeu Gamka. Except for one individual in Kuboes, severe fluorosis (score 5) was only observed in the high fluoride area in 30% of the children. According to the Bonferroni adaptation for multiple comparisons, the degree of fluorosis in Leeu Gamka differed significantly from both those of Sanddrif and Kuboes. The mean DMFT for the children in Sanddrif and Kuboes was similar (1·64 ± 0·30 and 1·54 ± 0·24, respectively) but the caries experience of Leeu Gamka (1·98 ± 0·22) was significantly higher (P < 0·05) than that of both the other two areas. A strong positive correlation (P < 0·05) was found between the caries experience and the fluorosis scores of children in the high fluoride area (Leeu Gamka) but no correlation could be found in the other two areas. Significantly (P < 0·01) more children had decayed teeth in the high F area (Leeu Gamka) than in the other two areas.

Conclusion.The results suggest a positive association between high F levels in the drinking water and dental caries. Furthermore, a low caries experience and no difference in DMFT and fluorosis between the two low fluoride areas were found.



http://adr.iadrjournals.org/cg.....act/8/1/15
Dental tissue effects of fluoride
O. Fejerskov, M. J. Larsen, A. Richards and V. Baelum
Department of Oral Anatomy, Dental Pathology and Operative Dentistry, Royal Dental College, Faculty of Health Sciences, University of Aarhus, Denmark.

It is now well-established that a linear relationship exists between fluoride dose and enamel fluorosis in human populations. With increasing severity, the subsurface enamel all along the tooth becomes increasingly porous (hypomineralized), and the lesion extends toward the inner enamel. In dentin, hypomineralization results in an enhancement of the incremental lines. After eruption, the more severe forms are subject to extensive mechanical breakdown of the surface.


http://adr.iadrjournals.org/cg.....act/8/1/32
Advances in Dental Research, Vol 8, 32-38, Copyright © 1994 by International & American Associations for Dental Research
Non-dental tissue effects of fluoride
M. Kleerekoper
Division of Endocrinology, Wayne State University, School of Medicine, Detroit, MI 48201.

The anti-caries effects of water fluoridation are well-established. The non-dental tissue effects of fluoride in drinking water, either naturally occurring or as an additive, have been too poorly studied to permit definitive conclusions to be drawn. Claims have been made that fluoride results in an increased occurrence of malignancies, particularly osteogenic sarcoma. Experimental rat data have not resolved this issue, and epidemiologic studies are equally unclear. Initial claims that fluoride offers protection against atherosclerosis remain viable, but here too, much more directed research is needed. Early studies suggested that a water fluoride content greater than 1 ppm resulted in a lower prevalence of osteoporotic fractures. Recent epidemiologic data seriously question this conclusion and raise the possibility that even this relatively low level may increase the prevalence of osteoporotic hip fractures.



http://md1.csa.com/partners/vi.....cookie=yes
Effect of fluoride exposure on intelligence in children
Li, XS; Zhi, JL; Gao, RO
Fluoride. Vol. 28, no. 4, pp. 189-192. 1994.

The intelligence was measured of 907 children aged 8-13 years living in areas which differed in the amount of fluoride present in the environment. The Intelligence Quotient (IQ) of children living in areas with a medium or severe prevalence of fluorosis was lower than that of children living in areas with only slight fluorosis or no fluorosis. The development of intelligence appeared to be adversely affected by fluoride in the areas with a medium or severe prevalence of fluorosis but to a minor extent only in areas with only a slight prevalence of fluorosis. A high fluoride intake was associated with a lower intelligence. No correlation was found between age and intelligence in the areas with a medium and severe prevalence of fluorosis. The effect of exposure to a high level of fluoride on intelligence may occur at an early stage of development of the embryo and infant when the differentiation of brain nerve cells is occurring and development is most rapid.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/en.....t=Citation
Community Dent Oral Epidemiol. 1999 Feb;27(1):31-40.
Prevention and reversal of dental caries: role of low level fluoride. Featherstone JD.

The level of fluoride incorporated into dental mineral by systemic ingestion is insufficient to play a significant role in caries prevention. The effect of systemically ingested fluoride on caries is minimal. Fluoride "supplements" can be best used as a topical delivery system by sucking or chewing tablets or lozenges prior to ingestion.



http://www.springerlink.com/co.....w7dvpekp7/
Severity of dental caries among 12-year-old Sudanese children with different fluoride exposure
Clinical Oral Investigations, Volume 9, Number 1 / March, 2005, Pages 46-51
J. M. Birkeland, Y. E. Ibrahim, I. A. Ghandour and O. Haugejorden

Abstract The aim of this study was to assess the effect of fluoride on the severity of caries among children exposed to different concentrations of fluoride in the drinking water and living in rural areas in the Sudan. Permanently resident schoolchildren ( n =299) aged 11–13 years from three villages were clinically examined under field conditions. The caries criterion was teeth in need of extraction or extracted; only molars were recorded. Dental fluorosis was scored on all buccal tooth surfaces by the Thylstrup and Fejerskov index. The fluoride concentrations of the drinking water were assessed in samples ( n =25) collected from wells and households. Predictors of caries were assessed by logistic regression analyses. There was no significant difference regarding age and gender distribution between the areas ( P >0.05, df=2, Kruskal-Wallis test). The socio-economic conditions in these villages were presumed to be equal. Significantly different fluoride concentrations in the drinking water were verified by the severity of dental fluorosis. Children in Abu Delaig, drinking water with 1.0–2.0 mg fluoride/L (median = 1.8), had significantly higher caries prevalence (21% versus 8%) than in a 0.4 mg fluoride area. Area was the only significant predictor for caries; odds ratio 3.7 for children in Abu Delaig compared with the low fluoride area. There was no difference in caries prevalence between the lowest and the highest fluoride (2.9 mg) area. This study failed to demonstrate an effect of fluoride in drinking water on caries experience when the end point was molars indicated for extraction or missing because of caries.


http://www.blackwell-synergy.c.....alCode=ipd
International Journal of Paediatric Dentistry
Volume 11 Issue 5 Page 372 - September 2001
Relationships between fluoride in enamel, DMFT Index and fluorosis in high- and low-fluoride areas in South Africa
E. H. M. van der Merwe, J. I. Bischoff, L. P. Fatti, D. H. Retief, F. H. Barbakow and M. Friedman

[note: DMFT is an index of dental health, lower is better]
The DMFT Index, degree of fluorosis (DEGF), and enamel fluoride concentration (F) were determined in 88 children living in a high- and 79 children living in a low-fluoride area in South Africa. The following interrelationships between these parameters were found: in both areas there was a significant negative correlation between log F and age; in the high-fluoride area there was a significant positive correlation between log F and DEGF; and in the combined data from the two areas there were significant correlations between log F and area, log F and age, and log F and DEGF, and a significant association between DEGF and area. There were no significant correlations between DMFT and log F and between DMFT and DEGF.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/en.....t=Citation
Neurotoxicol Teratol. 1995 Mar-Apr;17(2):169-77.Click here to read
Neurotoxicity of sodium fluoride in rats.
Mullenix PJ, Denbesten PK, Schunior A, Kernan WJ.

This study in Sprague-Dawley rats compares behavior, body weight, plasma and brain F levels after sodium fluoride (NaF) exposures during late gestation, at weaning or in adults. For prenatal exposures, dams received injections (SC) of 0.13 mg/kg NaF or saline on gestational days 14-18 or 17-19. Weanlings received drinking water containing 0, 75, 100, or 125 ppm F for 6 or 20 weeks, and 3 month-old adults received water containing 100 ppm F for 6 weeks. Behavior was tested in a computer pattern recognition system that classified acts in a novel environment and quantified act initiations, total times and time structures. Fluoride exposures caused sex- and dose-specific behavioral deficits with a common pattern. Males were most sensitive to prenatal day 17-19 exposure, whereas females were more sensitive to weanling and adult exposures. After fluoride ingestion, the severity of the effect on behavior increased directly with plasma F levels and F concentrations in specific brain regions. Such association is important considering that plasma levels in this rat model (0.059 to 0.640 ppm F) are similar to those reported in humans exposed to high levels of fluoride.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/en.....t=Abstract
Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2003;(1):CD002278. Links
Fluoride toothpastes for preventing dental caries in children and adolescents.
Marinho VC, Higgins JP, Sheiham A, Logan S.

Seventy-four studies were included. For the 70 that contributed data for meta-analysis (involving 42,300 children) the D(M)FS pooled PF was 24% (95% confidence interval (CI), 21 to 28%; p<0.0001). This means that 1.6 children need to brush with a fluoride toothpaste (rather than a non-fluoride toothpaste) over three years to prevent one D(M)FS in populations with caries increment of 2.6 D(M)FS per year. In populations with caries increment of 1.1 D(M)FS per year, 3.7 children will need to use a fluoride toothpaste for three years to avoid one D(M)FS. There was clear heterogeneity, confirmed statistically (p<0.0001). The effect of fluoride toothpaste increased with higher baseline levels of D(M)FS, higher fluoride concentration, higher frequency of use, and supervised brushing, but was not influenced by exposure to water fluoridation.


http://www.keepersofthewell.or.....Eklund.pdf
Dental Caries and Dental Fluorosis at Varying Water
Fluoride Concentrations
Keith E. Heller, DDS, DrPH; Stephen A. Eklund, DDS, MHSA, DrPH; Brian A. Burt, MPH, PhD


Fluorosis prevalence was 13.5 percent, 21.7 percent, 29.9 percent, and 41.4 percent for children who consumed <0.3, 0.3 to <0.7, 0.7 to 1.2 and >1.2 ppm F water.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/en.....t=Abstract
A re-examination of the pre-eruptive and post-eruptive mechanism of the anti-caries effects of fluoride: is there any anti-caries benefit from swallowing fluoride?
Limeback H.
Faculty of Dentistry, University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada. hlimeback@dental.utoronto.ca

By their nature, the water fluoridation trials were not able to distinguish between the topical effects of the fluoride in the water and the systemic effects of the fluoride that is inevitably swallowed and incorporated into developing teeth. Some attempts have been made to estimate the contribution of systemic fluoride to the control of dental caries but researchers are discovering that the topical effects of fluoride are likely to mask any benefits that ingesting fluoride might have. In this updated review of the pre-eruptive vs. post-eruptive benefits of fluoride in the prevention of dental caries, a re-examination of the literature, which is often cited to support the notion that swallowing fluoride, either in water or in pill form, was done in recognition of the mounting evidence for the topical mechanism as being the primary mechanism for the prevention of dental caries. Maximum benefits from exposing newly erupted teeth to topical fluoride in the oral cavity may have been seriously under-estimated. This has obvious implications for the use of systemic fluorides to prevent dental caries and forces everyone working in the field to examine more closely the risks and benefits of fluoride in all its delivery forms.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/en.....t=Citation
Community Dent Oral Epidemiol. 1985 Feb;13(1):37-41. Links
Influence of social class and fluoridation on child dental health.
Colquhoun J.

In this study in oral epidemiology, officially collected statistics are presented which show that, 15 yr after fluoridation commenced in Auckland, New Zealand, there was still a significant correlation between dental health of children and their social class. They also show that treatment levels have continued to decline in both fluoridated and unfluoridated areas, and are related to social class factors rather than to the presence or absence of water fluoridation. In the unfluoridated areas all the children, and in the fluoridated areas only selected children, had received regular topical fluoride treatments. In both areas the use of fluoride tooth-pastes and oral hygiene had been encouraged. When the socioeconomic variable is allowed for, child dental health appears to be better in the unfluoridated areas.





Refutations: (note that these studies were made on populations which also use toothpaste, supplements, etc- it may be that communities which support fluoridation tend to have more people who encourage brushing teeth, or that people who live in communities which do not, also try to buy non-fluoridated toothpaste- no attempt was made in these studies to differentiate between water fluoride and fluoride from other sources or, as in the previous study, to socio-economic status)


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/en.....t=Citation
N Z Dent J. 1992 Jan;88(391):9-13.
The prevalence of caries in 5-year-old children living in fluoridated and non-fluoridated communities in New Zealand.
Treasure ET, Dever JG.
Department of Community Dental Health, School of Dentistry, University of Otago, Dunedin.

The prevalence of caries in 5-year-old children living in fluoridated and non-fluoridated communities was investigated. Clinical examinations were completed on 342 children, of whom 247 had been continuously resident in their towns. Children living in fluoridated communities had significantly lower mean dmft and dmfs than children living in non-fluoridated communities. There was a marked social gradient in the non-fluoridated communities, which was not observed in the children from the fluoridated communities.


http://jdr.iadrjournals.org/cg.....t/67/5/802
Dental caries, fluorosis, and fluoride exposure in Michigan schoolchildren
S. M. Szpunar and B. A. Burt
School of Public Health II, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor 48109-2029.

The prevalence of both caries and fluorosis was significantly associated with the F concentration in the community water supply. Approximately 65% of all children were caries-free, ranging from 55.1% in fluoride-deficient Cadillac to 73.7% in Redford (1.0 ppm F). About 36% of all children had dental fluorosis, ranging from 12.2 in Cadillac to 51.2 in Richmond (1.2 ppm). All of the fluorosis was very mild. From logistic regression, the prevalence of caries was significantly associated with age, dental attendance, and the use of a water supply fluoridated at 1.0 ppm. The odds of experiencing fluorosis increased at every F level above the baseline (Cadillac), with the use of topical F rinses, and with age. Results suggest that children in the four communities may be ingesting a similar level of F from sources such as dentifrices, dietary supplements, and professional applications, but the factor that differentiates them with respect to the prevalence of caries and fluorosis is the F concentration in the community water supply.


http://jdr.iadrjournals.org/cg...../65/9/1154
Journal of Dental Research, Vol 65, 1154-1158
Root caries in an optimally fluoridated and a high-fluoride community
B. A. Burt, A. I. Ismail and S. A. Eklund

When combined with previous research, these results confirm that root caries experience is directly related to the fluoride concentration in the drinking water.


If you want working links, go here:
http://www.graveyardofthegods.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5270

Rduke55
12-05-2006, 01:26 PM
Disclaimer: There is a decent amount of research indicating potential problems with fluoridated water. But I believe that the literature supports the idea that amount of fluoridation the US and othern countries put into the water is safe and effective for improving oral health.

That said, I think your anti-government stance may be biasing you here and causing you to cherry pick papers.

Most of those authors have other papers from the same time period or more recently where they support fluoridated water or they are discussing the optimal concentration of fluoride in the water (some want less of a concentration, depending on other factors, but do not oppose water fluoridation itslef - note their use of the term "optimal").
Along those lines, several of these studies are looking at regions where the fluoride concentration exceeds the U.S. added fluoridation.
The point of much of this research is looking at these levels because many rural areas where they get their water from wells and such have much higher fluoride levels than what is considered safe. That's where the problems lie.

Can high fluoride cause problems? Of course. Remember - the poison is in the dose.

The CDC listed fluoridation of water as one of the top ten achievements in public health in the 20th century. Also, the ADA supports it.
(cue tirade)

Also, what do you know about fluorosis?

Here's some of the authors' papers I mean:

Grobler and/or Louw (and note the fluoride level of the high fluoride region in the paper you cited) - papers are arguing for a change in added fluoride levels depending on avg. tempurature and precipitation.
See SADJ. 2001 Nov;56(11):557-9.; Gen Dent. 2002 Jul-Aug;50(4):352-6.; SADJ. 2001 Nov;56(11):528-32.

Baelum - Caries Res. 1998;32(3):175-80.;


Kleerekoper - He's a big proponent of fluoride for treating osteoporosis. That article you cited was talking about the difficulty of making conclusions about this subject.

Also, why did you cut this off (the next few lines of that abstract)?

[ QUOTE ]
Other elements, including calcium and magnesium, also vary in amount as water fluoride content varies, and it has proved difficult to distinguish the independent effects of the various nutrients in water from each other. Therapeutic use of fluoride has been largely restricted to studies of its effect on the osteoporotic study, this important issue remains unresolved.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could not find the fluoride and IQ one on pubmed and could not find that journal at my library.

Featherstone - J Am Dent Assoc. 2000 Jul;131(7):887-99.

Haugejorden, Friedman, etc. - I think here is the best examples of high (not optimal) fluoride studies as well as studies looking at fluoride in combination with other factors - such as diet. I don't think these mean what you think they mean.

Burt(this guy seems to really like fluoridated water) - J Public Health Dent. 2002 Fall;62(4):195-200.;Bull World Health Organ. 2005 Sep;83(9):670-6.

Limeback - topical vs. systemic again.

Kernan WJ - concentration again.

I gotta go, bbl

hmkpoker
12-05-2006, 01:46 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Disclaimer: There is a decent amount of research indicating potential problems with fluoridated water. But I believe that the literature supports the idea that amount of fluoridation the US and othern countries put into the water is safe and effective for improving oral health.

[/ QUOTE ]

The mere fact that it is in debate is reason enough to be against it. Oral health is not a public epidemic. If people want clean mouths, they can go out and buy toothpaste.

Rduke55
12-05-2006, 02:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Disclaimer: There is a decent amount of research indicating potential problems with fluoridated water. But I believe that the literature supports the idea that amount of fluoridation the US and othern countries put into the water is safe and effective for improving oral health.

[/ QUOTE ]

The mere fact that it is in debate is reason enough to be against it. Oral health is not a public epidemic. If people want clean mouths, they can go out and buy toothpaste.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was worried about that disclaimer doing that.
I think that made it out to be a bigger debate than it is. The debate I'm talking about is like other public health debates (vaccinations, vector control, etc.) where you talk about things like efficacy of different approaches, etc.

Do we have any tooth people around here?

Rduke55
12-05-2006, 02:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]

4. A condition, fluorosis, results from exposure to fluoride in water. Fluorosis rots one's teeth and may lower children's intelligence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fluorosis reduces intelligence?

I'm just messing with you - Since I know more about intelligence than enamel I kept looking and I did find a similar paper by the same authors on PubMed. Unfortunately it's the only one of its type and I don't read chinese.

The conceptual jumps they make look astounding.
Linky (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlu s&list_uids=7859263&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum )