Did the Big Bang happen?

[John21]

I was searching for some Big Bang info when I came across this petition. Considering all of the people who signed it know far more about astro-physics than I ever will - how is someone capable of making sense of anything?


An Open Letter to the Scientific Community
cosmologystatement.org
(Published in New Scientist, May 22, 2004)

The big bang today relies on a growing number of hypothetical entities, things that we have never observed-- inflation, dark matter and dark energy are the most prominent examples. Without them, there would be a fatal contradiction between the observations made by astronomers and the predictions of the big bang theory. In no other field of physics would this continual recourse to new hypothetical objects be accepted as a way of bridging the gap between theory and observation. It would, at the least, raise serious questions about the validity of the underlying theory... (continued here) (www.cosmologystatement.org)

Signed:
Halton Arp, Max-Planck-Institute Fur Astrophysik (Germany)
Andre Koch Torres Assis, State University of Campinas (Brazil)
Yuri Baryshev, Astronomical Institute, St. Petersburg State University (Russia)
Ari Brynjolfsson, Applied Radiation Industries (USA)
Hermann Bondi, Churchill College, University of Cambridge (UK)
Timothy Eastman, Plasmas International (USA)
Chuck Gallo, Superconix, Inc.(USA)
Thomas Gold, Cornell University (emeritus) (USA)
Amitabha Ghosh, Indian Institute of Technology, Kanpur (India)
Walter J. Heikkila, University of Texas at Dallas (USA) Michael Ibison, Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin (USA)
Thomas Jarboe, University of Washington (USA)
Jerry W. Jensen, ATK Propulsion (USA)
Menas Kafatos, George Mason University (USA)
Eric J. Lerner, Lawrenceville Plasma Physics (USA)
Paul Marmet, Herzberg Institute of Astrophysics (retired) (Canada)
Paola Marziani, Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica, Osservatorio Astronomico di Padova (Italy)
Gregory Meholic, The Aerospace Corporation (USA)
Jacques Moret-Bailly, Université Dijon (retired) (France)
Jayant Narlikar, IUCAA(emeritus) and College de France (India, France) Marcos Cesar Danhoni Neves, State University of Maringá (Brazil)
Charles D. Orth, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (USA)
R. David Pace, Lyon College (USA)
Georges Paturel, Observatoire de Lyon (France)
Jean-Claude Pecker, College de France (France)
Anthony L. Peratt, Los Alamos National Laboratory (USA)
Bill Peter, BAE Systems Advanced Technologies (USA)
David Roscoe, Sheffield University (UK)
Malabika Roy, George Mason University (USA)
Sisir Roy, George Mason University (USA) Konrad Rudnicki, Jagiellonian University (Poland)
Domingos S.L. Soares, Federal University of Minas Gerais (Brazil)
John L. West, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology (USA)
James F. Woodward, California State University, Fullerton (USA)
New signers of the Open letter since publication
Scientists and Engineers
Jorge Marao Universidade Estadual de Londrina Brazi
Martin John Baker, Loretto School Musselburgh, UK
Peter J Carroll, Psychonaut Institute, UK
Roger Y. Gouin, Ecole Superieure d'Electricite, France
John Murray, Sunyata Composite Ltd, UK
Jonathan Chambers, University of Sheffield, UK Michel A. Duguay, Laval University, Canada
Qi Pan, Fitzwilliam College, Cambridge, UK
Fred Rost, University of NSW (Emeritus), Australia
Louis Hissink, Consulting Geologist, Australia
Hetu Sheth, Earth Sciences, Indian Institute of Technology Bombay, India
Lassi Hyvärinen, IBM(Ret), France
Max Whisson, University of Melbourne, Australia
R.S.Griffiths, CADAS, UK
Adolf Muenker, Brane Industries, USA
Emre Isik Akdeniz University Turkey Felipe de Oliveira Alves, Federal University of Minas Gerais, Brazil
Jean-Marc Bonnet-Bidaud, Service d'Astrophysique, CEA, France
Kim George, Curtin University of Technology, Australia
Tom Van Flandern, Meta Research, USA
Doneley Watson, IBM (ret.), USA
Fred Alan Wolf, Have Brains / Will Travel, USA
Robert Wood, IEEE, Canada
D. W. Harris, L-3 Communications, USA
Eugene Sittampalam, Engineering consultant, Sri Lanka
Joseph.B. Krieger, Brooklyn College, CUNY, USA Pablo Vasquez, New Jersey Institute of Technology, USA
Peter F. Richiuso, NASA, KSC, USA
Roger A. Rydin, University of Virginia (Emeritus), USA
Stefan Rydstrom, Royal Institute of Technology, Sweden
Sylvan J. Hotch, The MITRE Corporation (Retired), USA
Thomas R. Love, CSU Dominguez Hills, USA
Andrew Coles, Embedded Systems, USA
Eit Gaastra, infinite universe researcher, The Netherlands
Franco Selleri, Università di Bari, Dipartimento di Fisica, Italy
Gerald Pease, The Aerospace Corporation, USA S.N. Arteha, Space Research Institute, Russia
Miroslaw Kozlowski, Warsaw University (emeritus), Poland
John Hartnett, School of Physics, University of Western Australia, Australia
Robert Zubrin, Pioneer Astronautics, USA
Tibor Gasparik, SUNY at Stony Brook, USA
Alexandre Losev, Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Bulgaria
Henry Hall, University of Manchester, UK
José da Silva, Universidade Federal de Minas Gerais, Brazil
Markus Rohner, Griesser AG, Switzerland
William C. Mitchell, Institute for Advanced Cosmological Studies, USA Aurea Garcia-Rissmann, UFSC, Brazil
Cristian R. Ghezzi, Universidade Estadual de Campinas, Brazil
Daniel Nicolato Epitácio Pereira, Federal University of Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Gregory M. Salyards, US Naval Sea Systems Command (ret.), USA
Luiz Carlos Barbosa, Unicamp, Brazil
Luiz Carlos Jafelice, Federal University of the Rio Grande do Norte, Brazil
Michael Sosteric, Athabasca University, Canada
Steven Langley Guy, University of Elizabeth (Physics Department), Australia
Robert Fritzius, Shade Tree Physics, USA
Irineu Gomes Varella, Escola Municipal de Astrofísica, Brazil Tom Walther, Southern Cross University Australia , Australia
Mauro Cosentino, University of São Paulo, Brazil
Moacir Lacerda, Univeersidade Federal de Mato Grosso do Sul, Brazil
Roberto Assumpcao, PUC Minas, Brazil
Roberto Lopes Parra, University of Sao Paulo, Brazil
Ronaldo Junio Camppos Batista, Universidade Federal de Minas Gerais, Brazil
Ermenegildo Caccese, University of Basilicata, Italy
Felipe Sofia Zanuzzo, Federal University of São Carlos, Brazil
Edival de Morais, Sociedade Brasileira de Física, Brazil
Graham Coupe, KAZ Technology Services, Australia Gordon Petrie, High Altitude Observatory, NCAR, USA,
Jose B. Almeida, University of Minho, Portugal,
Antonio Cleiton, Laboratório de Sistemas Complexos - UFPI, Brazil
Sergey Karpov, L.V.Kirensky Institute of Physics Russian Academy of Sciences, Russia
Wagner Patrick Junqueira de Souza Coelho Nicácio, Universidade Federal de Minas Gerais, Brazil
Sokolov Vladimir, Special Astrophysical Observatory of RAS, Russia
Edwin G. Schasteen, TAP-TEN Research Foundation International, USA
Gerry Zeitlin, openseti.org, USA
Henry H. Bauer, Virginia Polytechnic Institute & State University, USA
Yasha Fard,H.R. Cosmology Institute, Canada Roberto Caimmi, Astronomy Department, Padua University, Italy
Tobias Keller, ETH (SFIT) Zurich, Earth Sciences, Switzerland,
Deborah Foch, Center for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence, USA,
Henry Reynolds, UC Santa Cruz, USA,
Paramahamsa Tewari, Nuclear Power Corporation (ret.),India
Jouko Seppänen, Helsinki University of Technology, Finland,
Cristiane Ribeiro Bernardes, Universidade Federal de Minas Gerais, Brazil
Eric Blievernicht. TRW, USA
Dr. Robert Bennett, Kolbe Center, USA,
Hilton Ratcliffe, Astronomical Society of South Africa, South Africa Wieslaw Sztumski, Silesian University, Poland
Lars Wåhlin,Colutron Research Corporation,USA
Riccardo Scarpa, European Southern Observatory, Italy,
Olivier Marco, European Southern Observatory, France
Joseph Garcia, International Radiation Protection, Germany,
Arkadiusz Jadczyk, International Institute of Mathematical Physics, Lithuania
Jean de Pontcharra, Commissariat à l'Energie Atomique, France
Gerardus D. Bouw, Baldwin-Wallace College, USA
Josef Lutz, Chemnitz University of Technology, Germany,
Harold E. Puthoff, Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin, USA. Hermann Dürkop, Nabla Systemberatung, Germany,
Klaus Fischer, Universität Trier, Germany,
Werner Holzmüller, University Leipzig, Germany
Sol Aisenberg, International Technology Group, USA
Richard Gancarczyk, University of Nottingham, UK
Steve Humphry, Murdoch University, Australia
Alberto Bolognesi, Università di Perugia, Italy
Daniele Carosati, Armenzano Observatory, Italy
Brendan Dean, H.R. Cosmology Institute, Canada
W. Jim Jastrzebski, Warsaw University, Poland Gero Rupprecht, European Southern Observatory, Germany
Rainer Herrmann TEWS-Elektronik Germany
Felix Pharand University of Montreal Canada
Jerry Bergman Northwest State University USA
Tibor Gasparik SUNY at Stony Brook USA
Rei Gunn University of Nantucket USA
Sinan Alis Eyuboglu Twin Observatories Turkey
Esat Rennan Pekünlü University of EGE Turkey
Anne M. Hofmeister Washington U. USA
Quentin Foreman IEEE New Zealand Marc Berndl University of Toronto Canada
Y. P. Varshni University of Ottawa Canada
Robert Martinek McMaster University Canada
Bob Criss Washington University USA
Sol Aisenberg, International Technology Group, USA
Paul LaViolette, The Starburst Foundation, U.S.A.
Seetesh Pandé, Universite Claude Bernard, Lyon France
TAHIR MAQSOOD, PSA, PAKISTAN
Hartmut Traunmüller, University of Stockholm, Sweden Nico F. Benschop, Amspade Research, Netherlands
Aaron Blake, USAF, USA
M. Ross Fergus, University of Memphis, USA
Sonu Bhaskar, Council of Scientific and Industrial Research, India
Frederico V. F., Lima Universidade de Sao Paulo, Brazil
Andrei Kirilyuk, Institute of Metal Physics of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, Ukraine
Christian Jooss, Institut fuer Materialphysik, University of Goettingen, Germany
Sonu Bhaskar, BCISR, India
Robert O. Myers, ROM Technologies, USA
Ana Cristina Oliveira, Universidade Federal de Minas Gerais, Brazil John Wey, Idaho National Laboratory, USA
Jorge Francisco Maldonado Serrano, UIS, Colombia
Pasquale Galianni, Dipartimento di Fisica Università di Lecce, Italy
Martín López-Corredoira, Instituto de Astrofísica de Canarias, Spain
Michael A. Ivanov, Belarus State University of Informatics and Radioelectronics, Belarus
Xiao Jianhua , Shanghai Jiaotong University, China
Pierre J. Beaujon, Hoornbeeck College, The Netherlands
J.Georg von Brzeski Helios Labs. USA
vidyardhi nanduri , Cosmology Research center , India
Mike Rotch NBSA USA
Paul Noel, Independent_Researcher, USA
Swee Eng, AW Royal College of Pathologists, SINGAPORE
Ricardo Rodríguez , La Laguna University , Spain
Linda Camp Harvard University USA
James B. Schwartz , The Noah's Ark Research Foundation , Philippines
Marshall Douglas Smith , TeddySpeaks Foundation ,USA
Abbé Grumel , Association Copernic , France
Ives van Leth Waterboard Utrecht The Netherlands
Francis Michael C. Perez, Department of Transportation, USA
AHMED A. EL-DASH UNICAMP BRAZIL
David C Ware, University of Auckland, New Zealand
Alek Atevik, Skopje Astronomy Society, Macedonia
Peter Rowlands, University of Liverpool, UK
Robert Day, Suntola Consulting, Ltd., USA
Luís Paulo Sousa Loureiro, Portugal
Maingot Fabrice, Université Louis Pasteur, France
Kris Krogh, University of California, USA
Pierre-Marie Robitaille, The Ohio State University, United States
Charles Creager Jr, Creation Research Society, United States
Stephan Gift, The University of the West Indies, St Augustine Campus, Trinidad and Tobago ...
Joseph J. Smulsky, Institute of Earth's Cryosphere Siberian Branch Russian Academy of Sciences, Russia
Jorge Marao Universidade Estadual de Londrina Brazil
Jim O'Reilly Orion Consultants USA
Robert MacKay University of Warwick UK
Chris Vermeulen Astronomical Society of Southern Africa South Africa
Emilson Pereira Leite Institute of Astronomy and Geophysics Brazil
Allen W Green ATK Space Systems USA
Ron Balsys Central Queensland University Australia
Paul ten Boom University of New South Wales Australia
Mosheh Thezion The Empirical Church, USA Markus, Karsten,, Wilhelm-Foerster-Observatory Berlin e.V
Don. C. Wilson,: Process Technology and Development, USA
Marek Gajewski, Raytheon Co.,USA
Tuncay DOGAN, University of EGE, Turkey
Andrew M Uhl, Pennsylvania State Univeristy, USA
Klaus Wieder, Independent_Researcher, Germany
John Caley, Omegafour Pty Ltd, Australia
Keith Scott-Mumby, Capital University for Integrative Medicine/California
Institute for Human Sciences, USA

[JayTee]

Unless the paper is refering to something else, isn't expansion shown by the observation of red shift? Also, I thought there has been observational evidence of dark matter.

[John21]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless the paper is refering to something else, isn't expansion shown by the observation of red shift? Also, I thought there has been observational evidence of dark matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently some of the individuals on that list think there are some alternative explanations.

However, considering that most of them are highly intelligent and educated, when any type of speculation is involved, I think it kind of refutes DS's theory correlating intelligence with correct decisions - one side is wrong.

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless the paper is refering to something else, isn't expansion shown by the observation of red shift? Also, I thought there has been observational evidence of dark matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

there has been a lot of work done on the subject pretty recently...

as for

[ QUOTE ]
Did the Big Bang happen?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no clue..and that is considering that I know very little about the actual science..I am just going off the opinions of those who do..and most of them are not too much more confident than I am..at least with respets to most of the specifics

[FortunaMaximus]

What should be clear is that a massive singularity was triggered at or around that time, and the expansion of space, time, and the evolution of matter can be traced back to that trigger point in the history of the observed Universe.

I think for some astrophysicists, and that's a long [censored] list you got there, John, the issue is that it is the "Big Bang" instead of a singularity trigger.

And I'm not sure there are massive enougn neural nets yet to simulate the criteria to an exactitude that is demanded of most rigorous science.

And I wrote more then deleted it. Blah. I don't think there's a point anymore. Absolutes should be as suspectible to metric drift too, is the short version.

So, yeah, something significant happened then, but to assume it's the Alpha event may be a school of thought that's trapped in the 20th.

That's a lot of Christmas cards though.

[Metric]

Personally, I find the singularity theorems, combined with the expansion of the universe, to be pretty persuasive evidence for something like a big bang (though the exact model is not clear). The statement you reference has a certain shrill "Why won't you people believe me???" quality about it that makes me a bit skeptical of the whole thing. I have absolutely no problem with people studying "alternative cosmologies" especially with regards to the dark matter/dark energy mess, but the fact that this statement won't even acknowledge that there are some excellent reasons (e.g. singularity theorems) to take the big bang seriously does set off some alarms in the back of my head.

Also, this statement in the "asking for money" part in particular raised my eyebrows:

[ QUOTE ]
To avoid bias, the peer review committee that allocates such funds could be composed of astronomers and physicists from outside the field of cosmology.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Skidoo]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless the paper is refering to something else, isn't expansion shown by the observation of red shift?

[/ QUOTE ]

The expansion of space is merely inferred from the observed red shift, not proven.

And the black-body spectrum of about three degrees is taken as proof of something as well, but that's yet another ad hoc piece de resistance.

[Metric]

[ QUOTE ]
And the black-body spectrum of about three degrees is taken as proof of something as well, but that's yet another ad hoc piece de resistance.

[/ QUOTE ]
People typically use this to support the idea of inflation, which fits nicely in the "big bang" framework. But the strongest evidence for the big bang certainly doesn't rely on inflation being right.

[reb]

In the past few years I've really started to doubt the Big Bang theory myself, there are quite a few problems and assumptions that I don't like. There is the microwave background radiation, dark matter/energy which they know nothing about except for some vague observational data and some other stuff which I really don't know much about.

[David Sklansky]

"However, considering that most of them are highly intelligent and educated, when any type of speculation is involved, I think it kind of refutes DS's theory correlating intelligence with correct decisions - one side is wrong."

It sure doesn't. My theory only correlates intelligence with being correct when intelligent people are disagreeing with unintelligent people. (If stupid people happen to have a position regarding an issue where highly intelligent people disagree among themselves, then of course they have a good chance of being right if they are arguing with a smart person who is taking the other side. But it is not because there opinion has merit.)

As far as this specific issue is concerned, I don't think the dissenters are actually stating the theory is probably wrong. Rather they are stating it isn't quite as settled as some would say.

Meanwhile, getting back to the intelligence thing, I can't help but notice how few of the signers are from the really elite universities. I may be taking my intelligence theory too far but as far as I'm concerned it works even when seperating super intelligent people from super duper intelligent people. If so, and if I am right about the universities, there are refutations to their positions that are obvious to the very best physicists.

[evank15]

[ QUOTE ]
Paul Marmet, Herzberg Institute of Astrophysics (retired) (Canada)

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that it matters, but the HIA is the centre of astrophysics in this country, and it is here in Victoria, BC!

And I just applied for a job there (well, at the adjacent observatory) recently. No word yet. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Nobody from my university on the list though, my university being the best or second-best astrophysics university in the country.

Want "evidence" of dark matter? Look at the rotation curve of any galaxy. It's pretty explicit. What is at issue here is what dark matter is, not that something exists, because something is making the rotation curve look the way it does. Whether this is dark matter or whatever construct, that is for us to find out in the future.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
However, considering that most of them are highly intelligent and educated, when any type of speculation is involved, I think it kind of refutes DS's theory correlating intelligence with correct decisions - one side is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

DS can clarify, but I take his claim to essentially be - if smart is disagreeing with dumb and they've both studied the issue ...bet on smart. ( not that they ARE right, but they are more likely to be right).

luckyme

[BigBuffet]

Why should we care if there was or wasn't? How does it affect our daily lives?

[Metric]

One of these days I'm considering writing a book called "Quantum Cosmology for the Practical Man." It will answer all of your questions.

[BigBuffet]

[ QUOTE ]
One of these days I'm considering writing a book called "Quantum Cosmology for the Practical Man." It will answer all of your questions.

[/ QUOTE ]

In other words, you have no idea /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Skidoo]

[ QUOTE ]
Want "evidence" of dark matter? Look at the rotation curve of any galaxy. It's pretty explicit. What is at issue here is what dark matter is, not that something exists, because something is making the rotation curve look the way it does.

[/ QUOTE ]

When an observation didn't go as predicted, it used to be occasion for a revision of the theory, not an ad hoc "revised" form of matter.

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Want "evidence" of dark matter? Look at the rotation curve of any galaxy. It's pretty explicit. What is at issue here is what dark matter is, not that something exists, because something is making the rotation curve look the way it does.

[/ QUOTE ]

When an observation didn't go as predicted, it used to be occasion for a revision of the theory, not an ad hoc "revised" form of matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case, of course, they are the same thing. Your error arises because of your conception of what matter and gravity are.

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]
. It would, at the least, raise serious questions about the validity of the underlying theory... <a href="www.cosmologystatement.org" target="_blank">(continued here)</a>


[/ QUOTE ]

Interested, but link doesn't work...guess i'll google

Edit...fixed link i think statement (http://www.cosmologystatement.org/)

[evank15]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Want "evidence" of dark matter? Look at the rotation curve of any galaxy. It's pretty explicit. What is at issue here is what dark matter is, not that something exists, because something is making the rotation curve look the way it does.

[/ QUOTE ]

When an observation didn't go as predicted, it used to be occasion for a revision of the theory, not an ad hoc "revised" form of matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Revision of Newtonian (classical) mechanics?

I don't think so.

[Borodog]

Seeing as dark matter has been observed (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=scimathphil&Number=760151 9&Searchpage=1&Main=7601519&Words=%2Bdark+%2Bmatte r+-Re+Borodog&topic=&Search=true#Post7601519), I'm skeptical of their skepticism.