Yet another God question

[valenzuela]

Why would God create the world? If he is perfect then he didnt need to create the world.

In other words:
1) Only God exists.
2) God is perfect.
3) Since only God exists and he is perfect, the current status-quo is perfect.
4) God creates an universe that is not perfect, thereby the current status-quo is not perfect.

Why would God want to change from a perfect state no a non perfect state?

[Phil153]

A perfect being would arguably desire contact with other conscious entities who possess free will.

[valenzuela]

[ QUOTE ]
A perfect being would arguably desire contact with other conscious entities who possess free will.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he desires something, then he isnt living on a perfect state. Since only God exists and that state isnt perfect, God isnt perfect.

[Phil153]

That doesn't make sense to me. A healthy human is one that desires contact with others, and I think that would apply to any entity that has some kind of consciousness.

Also, creativity is part of perfection. Or are you saying that a perfect God is a stagnant one? That doesn't make sense to me either.

[valenzuela]

[ QUOTE ]
A healthy human is one that desires contact with others

[/ QUOTE ]

Youre comparing a perfect supreme being with a health human, that doesnt make too much sense to me.
A perfect being on a perfect world doesnt desire anything, if it desires something then it means he wants to improve the status-quo. If he desires to improve the status-quo then then status-quo isnt perfect.
If the current state isnt perfect and the only thing that state consists in is God, then God isnt perfect.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, creativity is part of perfection

[/ QUOTE ]
That is only true if the perfect being is on a unperfect state. However at one point God was all alone thereby on a perfect state, if you are on a perfect state why would you want to change to a non perfect one?

[ QUOTE ]
Or are you saying that a perfect God is a stagnant one?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the perfect God is on a perfect state then yes, if the God is on a non perfect state then no.
However before God created the universe he was on a perfect state.

[Phil153]

Sounds like a lot of semantic bulldust to me, with no meat. But I'm interested in what others think.

[thylacine]

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like a lot of semantic bulldust to me, with no meat. But I'm interested in what others think.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume that at no time were you taking the conversation seriously. Right?

[valenzuela]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like a lot of semantic bulldust to me, with no meat. But I'm interested in what others think.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume that at no time were you taking the conversation seriously. Right?

[/ QUOTE ]

If Im wrong, please enlighten me with youre knowledge and wisdom.

[John21]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would God want to change from a perfect state no a non perfect state?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing that because he is perfect, a perfect being would be compelled to share. By just keeping to himself, the way you described, would seem kind of selfish i.e. not perfect.

[valenzuela]

Creating a world full of misery and pain doesnt sound all that altruistic to me. If he shared something with us, it defenetly wasnt perfection.

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would God create the world? If he is perfect then he didnt need to create the world.

In other words:
1) Only God exists.
2) God is perfect.
3) Since only God exists and he is perfect, the current status-quo is perfect.
4) God creates an universe that is not perfect, thereby the current status-quo is not perfect.

Why would God want to change from a perfect state no a non perfect state?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you seriously trying to ascribe motives to a made up being? One who's main distinguishing characteristic is that it defies any logic?

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would God create the world? If he is perfect then he didnt need to create the world.

In other words:
1) Only God exists.
2) God is perfect.
3) Since only God exists and he is perfect, the current status-quo is perfect.
4) God creates an universe that is not perfect, thereby the current status-quo is not perfect.

Why would God want to change from a perfect state no a non perfect state?

[/ QUOTE ]

it was done to answer a question.

our universe is the answer to the question:

"what is it like to live in a universe where it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of god?"

a believer cannot prove god exists
an atheist cannot prove god does not exist

in this life the only thing that really matters is whether or not you would choose for god to exist based on a given definition of that god.

there are an infinite number of definitions.

a believer has selected one or more definitions.
an atheist has selected zero definitions.

you also must decide who gets to write the definition(s) for you.

ray

[John21]

[ QUOTE ]
Creating a world full of misery and pain doesnt sound all that altruistic to me. If he shared something with us, it defenetly wasnt perfection.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a problem people have been having for thousands of years.

C.S. Lewis addressed it in "The Problem of Pain." He starts out "Not many years ago when I was an atheist … " and ends with "Pain hurts. That is what the word means. I am only trying to show that the old Christian doctrine of being made perfect through suffering is not incredible. To prove it palatable is beyond my design."

The Problem of Pain (synopsis) (http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0032.html)

[valenzuela]

do you agree with me that today world isnt perfect?

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
C.S. Lewis addressed it in "The Problem of Pain." He starts out "Not many years ago when I was an atheist … " and ends with "Pain hurts. That is what the word means. I am only trying to show that the old Christian doctrine of being made perfect through suffering is not incredible. To prove it palatable is beyond my design."


[/ QUOTE ]

To find it acceptable is beyond my capabilities. I don't have sadistic tendencies.

[John21]

[ QUOTE ]
do you agree with me that today world isnt perfect?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course.

[Skidoo]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would God create the world? If he is perfect then he didnt need to create the world.

In other words:
1) Only God exists.
2) God is perfect.
3) Since only God exists and he is perfect, the current status-quo is perfect.
4) God creates an universe that is not perfect, thereby the current status-quo is not perfect.

Why would God want to change from a perfect state no a non perfect state?

[/ QUOTE ]

When are you characters going to get a clue that you can't second-guess the Creator of the universe?

[revots33]

He needed to create us so he'd have someone to worship him. What kind of self-respecting god has no worshipers?

[thylacine]

Skidoo said:[ QUOTE ]

When are you characters going to get a clue that you can't second-guess the Creator of the universe?

[/ QUOTE ]

What on earth does it mean to second-guess an entity that doesn't exist in the first place. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would God create the world? If he is perfect then he didnt need to create the world.

In other words:
1) Only God exists.
2) God is perfect.
3) Since only God exists and he is perfect, the current status-quo is perfect.
4) God creates an universe that is not perfect, thereby the current status-quo is not perfect.

Why would God want to change from a perfect state no a non perfect state?

[/ QUOTE ]

When are you characters going to get a clue that you can't second-guess the Creator of the universe?

[/ QUOTE ]

You better remember that any time you ever say anything about God ever.

[MaxWeiss]

Because he doesn't exist and all these philosophical questions relating to him only further the idea that belief is in any way warranted.

Okay, so I didn't actually answer your question. But it needs to be said.

[Hold'em 07]

I'm sorry, but if "god" was perfect he would of requested a documentary, not a novel.

[soon2bepro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A perfect being would arguably desire contact with other conscious entities who possess free will.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he desires something, then he isnt living on a perfect state. Since only God exists and that state isnt perfect, God isnt perfect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Theist say God doesn't have time, or "goes beyond time". Maybe BECAUSE God is perfect He created the world? And/or the other way around.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would God want to change from a perfect state no a non perfect state?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're assuming that God has changed state and that there is only one creation. Perhaps God has always created and his state has never changed(i.e. there are infinite creations).

Stu

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing that because he is perfect, a perfect being would be compelled to share. By just keeping to himself, the way you described, would seem kind of selfish i.e. not perfect.


[/ QUOTE ]

Theologians have answered this by citing the doctrine of the Trinity. The Three love and share eternally. God isn't therefore compelled by anything.

The OP raises one of those questions impossible to answer. Reformed theology calls this the full bucket difficulty. You have a bucket full of water. How can you add water? But to us that appears to be what God is doing by creating.

The only answer I've ever come up with is in Genesis. God calls His creation good. I can't see anything past that.

[keith123]

maybe varying the water level in the bucket is the ideal.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe varying the water level in the bucket is the ideal.

[/ QUOTE ]

That isnt the metaphor, but if that makes you feel better...

[siegfriedandroy]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would God create the world? If he is perfect then he didnt need to create the world.

In other words:
1) Only God exists.
2) God is perfect.
3) Since only God exists and he is perfect, the current status-quo is perfect.
4) God creates an universe that is not perfect, thereby the current status-quo is not perfect.

Why would God want to change from a perfect state no a non perfect state?

[/ QUOTE ]

God did not create an imperfect universe

[siegfriedandroy]

[ QUOTE ]
Because he doesn't exist and all these philosophical questions relating to him only further the idea that belief is in any way warranted.

Okay, so I didn't actually answer your question. But it needs to be said.

[/ QUOTE ]

what makes you so certain that God doesn't exist?

[keith123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
maybe varying the water level in the bucket is the ideal.

[/ QUOTE ]

That isnt the metaphor, but if that makes you feel better...

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. well then, the only way to keep the bucket full is to keep existence operating at perfection. so creating the universe when He did must have kept the bucket full. maybe the bucket would have emptied out a bit if the universe was not created or created differently.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
maybe varying the water level in the bucket is the ideal.

[/ QUOTE ]

That isnt the metaphor, but if that makes you feel better...

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. well then, the only way to keep the bucket full is to keep existence operating at perfection. so creating the universe when He did must have kept the bucket full. maybe the bucket would have emptied out a bit if the universe was not created or created differently.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm...God existed before the universe did. God is the alpha and the omega. So if he 'needed' to create the universe to achieve perfection he was sub-perfect pre-Universe. You aren't really answering the problem, just pushing back a step or two...if that.

[keith123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
maybe varying the water level in the bucket is the ideal.

[/ QUOTE ]

That isnt the metaphor, but if that makes you feel better...

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. well then, the only way to keep the bucket full is to keep existence operating at perfection. so creating the universe when He did must have kept the bucket full. maybe the bucket would have emptied out a bit if the universe was not created or created differently.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm...God existed before the universe did. God is the alpha and the omega. So if he 'needed' to create the universe to achieve perfection he was sub-perfect pre-Universe. You aren't really answering the problem, just pushing back a step or two...if that.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. re-read what i wrote

2. existence can be perfect without the universe and imperfect with the universe at point A in time and the opposite at point B in time.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because he doesn't exist and all these philosophical questions relating to him only further the idea that belief is in any way warranted.

Okay, so I didn't actually answer your question. But it needs to be said.

[/ QUOTE ]

what makes you so certain that God doesn't exist?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, for one thing:

[ QUOTE ]
God did not create an imperfect universe

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, for someone who's always calling everyone else idiots you're rather bad at this. God created the universe. The universe is imperfect. Therefore, God created an imperfect universe.

There are only three ways out of this. The first two are rejections of the premises. The third is a rejection of Godlike qualities attributed to God (timelessness, omnipotence, and omniscience).

[peritonlogon]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would God create the world? If he is perfect then he didnt need to create the world.

In other words:
1) Only God exists.
2) God is perfect.
3) Since only God exists and he is perfect, the current status-quo is perfect.
4) God creates an universe that is not perfect, thereby the current status-quo is not perfect.

Why would God want to change from a perfect state no a non perfect state?

[/ QUOTE ]

Call me Pangloss, but I thought this was the best of all possible worlds.

[MaxWeiss]

I'm not certain he doesn't exist. I'm certain the probability of him existing is on the same order of magnitude of the Invisible Pink Unicorn or his holiness, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or any number of random unprovable things that I can imagine.

Of course the burden of proof does not lie on me to justify why I don't believe in some invisible omnipotent, omniscient, perfect being in some magical other plane of existence.

***DO YOU SEE WHY***

;-)