Stumbling Blocks to Faith

[txag007]

Assume for a second that the Bible is true in that Jesus is who he claimed to be: Who would be likely to believe and which type of person would probably reject Him?

The rich or the poor?

The young or the old?

The educated or the uneducated?

If the things in the Bible really happened, could being in one (or more) of these groups actually prevent someone from seeing its truth?

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
Assume for a second that the Bible is true in that Jesus is who he claimed to be: Who would be likely to believe and which type of person would probably reject Him?

The rich or the poor?

The young or the old?

The educated or the uneducated?

If the things in the Bible really happened, could being in one (or more) of these groups actually prevent someone from seeing its truth?

[/ QUOTE ]

Being true/false is rather irrelevant.
Let's say it was true but there was zero evidence that it was.
Now, are any of those groups ...etc.
Let's say it was false and there was no contrary evidence. Now, are any of those groups ...etc.

luckyme

[revots33]

What was the average intelligence/income level of the Branch Davidians who followed David Koresh?

It seems pretty obvious that those less likely to question what they're told, and those who feel persecuted or disenfranchised, would be easier to convince. But of course that's who Jesus was preaching to. If Jesus had preached that only wealthy math geniuses can get to heaven, he might not have caught on the way he did.

[David Sklansky]

"If the things in the Bible really happened, could being in one (or more) of these groups actually prevent someone from seeing its truth?"

Yes. And although I think The Flying Spaghetti Monster is invoked too much, this is a perfect place for it.

[txag007]

But there is evidence for what Jesus said and did as opposed to the flying spagetti monster. Would being in one of the above mentioned groups prevent one from believing, evaluating, or even looking at the evidence in the first place?

[BPA234]

This is a weak example of your usual sad, circular logic. Why don't you add one more question:

The insane or stupid?

Pointlessly yours,
BPA234

[bigpooch]

Of course, the original poster will know much of what is in
my response, since I think he is likely to be a Protestant!

Well, if the Bible (I'll assume the Protestant Canon since
that is composed of the Jewish TaNaKh = Old Testament and
the common NT canon composed of 27 books which most
"Christians" consider as "Holy Writ") is essentially true
(not necessarily literally, but the overall message and
prominent themes are true), it's pretty clear about whether
Yeshua (you may call him "Jesus" if you like, but remember
there will be many "false Christs" who happen to take this
name: e.g., the "Jesus of Mormonism") will be more likely
rejected as the divine Logos and messianic priest-king (in
the order of Melchizedek) by various people:

(Scripture verses in NIV - not because this translation is
best, but because it is common among those that read
English!)


WEALTH
-------

The vast majority of the very wealthy willl reject Yeshua
because they will put their trust in riches or have Mammon
as their God.

texts:

a) from the Sermon on the Mount

19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth,
where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and
steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven,
where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not
break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your
heart will be also.

22"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good,
your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes
are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then
the light within you is darkness, how great is that
darkness!

24"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the
one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and
despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."

-Matthew 6:19-24

Most Christians are not aware that having a "dark eye" is
simply not being generous, but it's obvious in the context,
especially to "Jews that believe" by what is meant here.

b) The Rich Young Man

Mark 10:17-31

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and
fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked,
"what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is
good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not
murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give
false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and
mother [Exodus 20:12-16; Deut. 5:16-20]."

20"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I
was a boy."

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack,"
he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the
poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come,
follow me."

22At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because
he had great wealth.

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard
it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said
again, "Children, how hard it is [Some manuscripts "is for
those who trust in riches"] to enter the kingdom of God!
25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a
needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each
other, "Who then can be saved?"

27Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is
impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with
God."

28Peter said to him, "We have left everything to follow
you!"

29"I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has
left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or
children or fields for me and the gospel 30will fail to
receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes,
brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with
them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life.
31But many who are first will be last, and the last first."

- Mark 10:17-31


Obviously, the admonition is to this particular individual:
Yeshua is sensitive enough to omit the last commandment of
the Decalogue initially which is reflective of the main
obstacle of the rich young man. At times, Yeshua omits
very carefully: e.g., the reading of the Isaiah scroll in
Luke 4:16-21 omits the last part of Isaiah 61:2 for two
reaons: a) the fulfillment will not occur until the
Parousia (Second Coming); and b) the future ministry of his
true disciples will include Gentiles as "living stones" of
which Yeshua is the chief corner stone (or the Pauline
analogy of wild olive shoots).

Remember that Job, Abraham and Solomon were extremely
wealthy financially; okay, Solomon may not be an ideal
example!


YOUTH
------

On the one hand, Yeshua wants his disciples to receive the
Kingdom like a child; on the other hand, people are more
reflective on life when they believe they are closer to
death. Today's youth also seem somewhat spoiled, especially
in the West, and have many distractions, especially if they
are easily influenced by peers or figures of authority,
which may include parents, teachers and clergy. It is
unlikely for most young people to seriously evaluate Yeshua
as the messiah unless they are indoctrinated, innoculated,
or inundated!

a) Extremely young:

13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have
him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When
Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the
little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the
kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the
truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like
a little child will never enter it." 16And he took the
children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed
them.

-Mark 10:13-16

b) "Youths"

Although I don't recall anything directly in Scripture, I
do recall there have been at least a few negative words
about youths or young men: e.g., 1) the advice Rehoboam
received from the young men that grew up with him in
2 Chronicles 10; and 2) the jeering of Elisha by some young
men (in 2 Kings 2:23-25). It's not that relevant to include
the "Rich Young Ruler" because the main stumbling block
wasn't youth, but rather dependency on worldly wealth. The
following verses may be appropriate:

From 2 Timothy 2:22-26:

22Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness,
faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the
Lord out of a pure heart. 23Don't have anything to do with
foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce
quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel;
instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not
resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct,
in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading
them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come
to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who
has taken them captive to do his will.

But, like the wealthy, it is not impossible:

9 How can a young man keep his way pure?
By living according to your word.
10 I seek you with all my heart;
do not let me stray from your commands.

11 I have hidden your word in my heart
that I might not sin against you.

- Psalm 119:9-11



WISE, INTELLIGENT, EDUCATED
-----------------------------

Well, obviously a Jesuit studying to be a priest is more
likely to believe that Yeshua is the messiah than a
biologist who is studying empiricism. I think those that
are educated are in general less likely to believe because
the "philososphies of the world" run contrary to the view
held by the true disciples of Yeshua.

texts:

2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world,
but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you
will be able to test and approve what God's will is — his
good, pleasing and perfect will.

- Romans 12:2

15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If
anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in
him. 16For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful
man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has
and does — comes not from the Father but from the world.
17The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does
the will of God lives forever.

- 1 John 2:15-17


Views on other stumbling blocks:
--------------------------------

a) Roman Catholicism

For those "innoculated" by what some consider the "harlot
of Babylon", the ones that "escaped" will probably have many
stumbling blocks in believing that Yeshua is the messiah.

b) Islam

Those captured by the religion that allegedly "submits to
Allah ( = God)" will also find it difficult to accept the
reality of Yeshua being the messiah. Many Muslims believe
that the "books used by Christians" are corrupted, and the
Western powers and the religions of the West are "evil".
Ironically, these "people of the book" will have to trust
in the bible used by most Christians.

c) Judaism

Well, if I were a Jew, I would find it difficult to believe
that Yeshua was the messiah for many reasons; here are just
two:

1) Hitler was a "Christian" and the Holocaust did happen,
although not necessarily to the extent that some Jews seem
to believe.
2) The "Church" persecuted Jews from the history that I read
even though it never really represented the true body of
Yeshua; nevertheless, there would be serious obstacles to
overcome.

d) Science

Those that are scientists are more likely to hold to an
empiricist worldview and even those that are rationalists
will find difficulty in accepting spiritual truth. On the
other hand, Leibniz was an intelligent rationalist that did
believe that Yeshua was the messiah. The greatest
difficulty is in accepting what cannot be proven by the
usual methods of finding or seeking truth in science. On
the other hand, those genuiunely seeking the truth with all
of their being will surely find it; fortunately, many of
those in science are really seeking truth just for the sake
of truth and not just merely being "disciples of Science".

e) "the world"

Those ensnared with the world, have many stumbling blocks as
the true battlefield is unseen. Darkness is in the world,
but He that gives that light to everyone has overcome the
world. With what little light they have, they may still
overcome the world, but they need more light so that they do
not continue to walk in darkness.

SUMMARY
========

From 1 Corinthians 1:18-31:

18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who
are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the
power of God. 19For it is written: "I will destroy the
wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I
will frustrate." [Isaiah 29:14 ]

20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is
the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the
wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the
world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased
through the foolishness of what was preached to save those
who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look
for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling
block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those
whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power
of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God
is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is
stronger than man's strength.

26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called.
Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were
influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose
the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God
chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised
things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things
that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is
because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become
for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness
and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who
boasts boast in the Lord." [Jer. 9:24 ]


AND EVEN IF YOU ARE RICH, YOUNG OR BRIGHT AND BELIEVE
---------------------------------------------------------

Text from Jeremiah 9:23-24:

23 This is what YHWH says:
"Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom
or the strong man boast of his strength
or the rich man boast of his riches,

24 but let him who boasts boast about this:
that he understands and knows me,
that I am YHWH, who exercises kindness,
justice and righteousness on earth,
for in these I delight,"
declares YHWH.

[vhawk01]

Talk about the definition of tl;dr! I managed to get through the first few lines so I'll respond to that. What would it mean for the Bible to be 'mostly true,' and not literally true? You mentioned if the major themes were true...what would that mean?

Are you saying that if being kind to others and giving to the poor are good ideas that is evidence that Jesus is the son of God? I don't see that. There are plenty of fantastic messages in the Bible, but as far as I know there aren't any unique ones. There are plenty of books that tell me how I should act and how I should live my life. If the Bible isn't literaly true I fail to see its SPECIAL significance.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Talk about the definition of tl;dr! I managed to get through the first few lines so I'll respond to that. What would it mean for the Bible to be 'mostly true,' and not literally true? You mentioned if the major themes were true...what would that mean?

Are you saying that if being kind to others and giving to the poor are good ideas that is evidence that Jesus is the son of God? I don't see that. There are plenty of fantastic messages in the Bible, but as far as I know there aren't any unique ones. There are plenty of books that tell me how I should act and how I should live my life. If the Bible isn't literaly true I fail to see its SPECIAL significance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, are we almost to the point where Atlas Shrugged is 'essentially true?' I mean, sure the actual specific details didn't LITERALLY happen but the overall message and the major themes are still true...

P.S. I picked Atlas Shrugged for shock value.

[Prodigy54321]

no need to hate on txag for this one..and believe me, I'm the first to do it...

I would assume that this hypothetical is that the some specific account of Jesus is accurate...this one being specfic books of the bible..

am I correct in assuming that in this hypothetical, despite the fact that it is true, the evidence for it has not changed?...

if this is the case, then we do not have to evaluate this in terms of whether or not what the bible says is true or not, since the actual evidence has not changed...

I don't think that being any of these things PREVENTS someone from coming to that truth, but a few are certainly stumbling blocks...

being educated is the highest of them...even though Jesus is who the Bible depicts him as, the evidence does not sufficiently support it...the uneducated are less likely to be skeptical...

rich and poor is probably somewhat the same..it probably largely comes down to education though.

as far as being young or old is concerned, I don't think that it has much impact...the reason that we ight consider it to have an impact is that we compare specific generations today to others..but I think the changes have more to do with the changes to a more secular state, the availability of information, etc, rather than inherent differences in age itself.

-----------

If The Bible is in fact accurate, however, I would expect the evidence to portray that..not only because something that is true is more likely to be supported by the evidence, but also because the truth of it itself dictates that this truth can be brought to people...

if this is the case, then I would expect the more educated, and the rich to be more likely to come to the correct conclusion...

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
But there is evidence for what Jesus said and did as opposed to the flying spagetti monster. Would being in one of the above mentioned groups prevent one from believing, evaluating, or even looking at the evidence in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but who would be easier to convince a flying spaghetti monster DOES exist? Smart/wealthy or less intelligent/poor?

Now imagine the spaghetti monster says material wealth is bad and the meek will inherit the earth and unquestioning faith will be rewarded. I wonder which group might like this message best?

[Phil153]

[ QUOTE ]
The rich or the poor?/The young or the old?/The educated or the uneducated?

[/ QUOTE ]
The rich and the educated would be less likely to believe.

As for the young or old, it depends. The young if Christianity is the dominant religion, the old if some other myth is the dominant one.

Your move.

[bigpooch]

Sorry, I am not familiar with Ayn Rand works, but I know
that was her magnum opus; however, that was a work of
fiction.

As an example, consider the very first chapter of Genesis
and the next three verses in the second chapter. What does
"day" mean?

The literalists will believe those were actually "days"
because they may even know Hebrew and that really does mean
"day" as in an evening and a morning.

So, there are a few views that may reconcile this:

a) It was a RE-creation; some devastation occurred and this
really happened on the earth awhile back; but wouldn't this
make it a great deception? I won't invoke Borodog's post
that DS considered praiseworthy!

b) Days as in an evening and morning didn't occur. How
could it if only "light" was created on Day One. BTW, the
account of the first day should probably be more accurately
summarized "And there was evening, and there was morning -
Day One", although you will see invariably "the first day"
instead of "Day One". Then a good question is what is
meant by "evening and morning" if there weren't really days?

Nachmanides, a famous philospher/physician Catalan rabbi
(C.E. 1194 - ca. 1270) didn't see the "days" as literal
days. It is even alleged that he computed the approximate
age of the cosmos as 15 billion years old (okay, maybe he
was wrong by around 10% according to WMAP which gives about
13.7 +/- 0.2 billion years).

Besides, the best analogy one can give of Scripture is the
way that some rabbis think of it: it is a source of light,
but to see it well, you need to use a prism and that brings
out different colors (nowadays, you may consider a polaroid
instead of a prism).

The canonization of the New Testament seems difficult to
comprehend and did not occur until shortly after the
Emperor Constantine "hijacked" the beliefs of the early
Christians for his own purposes. This was around the 4th
Century C.E., much after the ministry of Yeshua had taken
place. How much faith can one put on the canon of the New
Testament? It's difficult (I think) for most critical
believers to simply put faith in the clergy that created
the canon without at least looking at the other works of the
early church. Besides, the canon of Orthodox churches may
often vary from church to church, so there are many versions
of the "bible".

The focus should not be on the Bible, which some believers
consider as the "Word of God", but on the Divine Logos, or
the Divine Word, which believers equate with Yeshua as the
messiah. It's obvious that if you look at the Synoptic
gospels, the accounts of the same incidents vary sometimes,
so we don't know if this is due to inaccurate observations
by eyewitnesses or subsequent editing.

You might be aware that the authors of the gospels each had
a purpose (or rather, the editors of what are now considered
the four gospels included in the New Testament canon) with
a specific audience in mind, for example, in the gospel of
Luke, the author (deemed to be Luke by the early church)
mentions in 1:3 is an individual named "Theophilus" (which
means "one who loves God") and conservatives would consider
it a stretch to think that Luke's audience were the ones
who love God in general, although it is considered that the
main audience are Gentiles (non-Jews) because of the many
references to Gentiles in this gospel. Also, the author(s),
editor(s) and/or redacor(s) of the Johannine gospel records
in Jn 20:30-31:

30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of
his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But
these are written that you may [Some manuscripts "may
continue to"] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of
God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

[ Now, it's clear from reading on that the next chapter of
John (the last chapter or chapter 21) is an editiorial
appendix that was added on. ]

In any case, the main reason for differences or omissions
(and possible emmendations) for the gospels is that the
author(s) had a specific audience or purpose in mind.

What about specific miracles?

Well, if one believes in the God that created the heavens
and the earth (Gen 1:1), surely he has the power to, if He
wants, to make seemingly impossible events to occur, such
as the first miracle Yeshua performed: changing water into
wine - I don't believe this was a magician's hoax! Here,
we have to take the text at face value, and there are very
good theological reasons to believe this is the case. But
of course, after one does believe, one is given more light,
and then more grace, and then more understanding.

Surprisingly, this miracle was only recorded in the gospel
according to John among the four gospels, so why was there
an omission from the synoptic gospels? I think, the other
authors did not have a theological understanding of the
event that took place and what the event symbolized because
if they truly did understand, why did they not include it?

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
But
of course, after one does believe, one is given more light,
and then more grace, and then more understanding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the modern term is 'Stockholm Syndrome'.

luckyme

[vhawk01]

Of course it was a work of fiction. OR WAS IT?!?! I mean, sure those people didn't literally exist, they were symbolic. Just as a Genesis day can mean anything a creationist wants it to mean, so can anything in any work of fiction mean anything, depending on your threshold for preposterousness.

[bigpooch]

No, simply the Divine Logos, the only light one needs.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
No, simply the Divine Logos, the only light one needs.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh. The way you describe it, it sounds like Stockholm Syndrome. Perhaps you're using an older term.

luckyme

[bigpooch]

It's so old, it was before anything was:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

Jn 1:1-5

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
It's so old, it was before anything was:

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmmm... who took the notes?

luckyme

[bigpooch]

George Handel wrote some notes and we just take them as they
are.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
George Handel wrote some notes and we just take them as they
are.

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to be quoting from a diary or something. Who wrote it, and was it written as she was watching the reported events or some years after.
If some years after and by an non-witness to the events described, how do we know the whole thing isn't some wacky story? Sounds a bit far out.

luckyme

[bigpooch]

Sounds very familiar:

ever heard of "Messiah" ?

Only four notes sung to "Praise the LORD" in Hebrew and you
get the idea.

[BluffTHIS!]

bigpooch,

Please cite your sources or say that your first post in this thread was entirely researched and written by yourself. You clearly belong to Messianic Judaism (major Jewish sects reject them as Jews as do Christians reject them as Christians), and likley just copied most of that from some MJ website. If that is the case, then you should link to same, as well as make your own religious affiliation clear. You are (intentionally??) confusing the non-believers in any religion here with your mixing of the Gospels and the Torah/Talmud and Jewish sounding terms that belong mainly to Messianic Judaism.

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes but

[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes but

[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you please just come right out and state what you're trying to prove? If you are arguing that many athiests would believe in god if they were less intelligent, I agree with you.

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]
bigpooch,

Please cite your sources or say that your first post in this thread was entirely researched and written by yourself. You clearly belong to Messianic Judaism (major Jewish sects reject them as Jews as do Christians reject them as Christians), and likley just copied most of that from some MJ website. If that is the case, then you should link to same, as well as make your own religious affiliation clear. You are (intentionally??) confusing the non-believers in any religion here with your mixing of the Gospels and the Torah/Talmud and Jewish sounding terms that belong mainly to Messianic Judaism.

[/ QUOTE ]
What's scary is that this seems to be original writing.
I don't think he's confusing many people. There's no way to do much more than skim what he writes. In addition to not finding anything with google, i assume it's original because it hangs together so poorly, and has no apparent point.

Still, that's an impressive amount of information.

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
Assume for a second that the Bible is true in that Jesus is who he claimed to be: Who would be likely to believe and which type of person would probably reject Him?

The rich or the poor?

The young or the old?

The educated or the uneducated?

If the things in the Bible really happened, could being in one (or more) of these groups actually prevent someone from seeing its truth?

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus stated one of his primary directives here:

"... I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly." John 10:10

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn010.html#10

Therefore He can be judged and meausured based upon whether or not he raised the overall quality of life on planet earth and whether or not you can raise your genuine quality of life as a result of your faith in Him.

The quality of life issue is independent of any demographic and stands upon it's own merit in the life of the individual.

In poker terms, John 10:10 is a pure ev statement.

Ray

[BPA234]

Here's another one:

The easily brainwashed or the functionally retarded?