Theory Post - Reraised Pot

[Leviathan101]

So tell me how you respond to these situations... I'm interested in hearing how you guys play reraised pots, since I don't really see much about it online.

Oh and I left out river, since many times you will be AI on the turn, and there are too many permutations for the river. I left a lot out on the turn already.
Answer the questions honestly and not as if you are answering a survey with similiar situations already presented.

Effective stacks. 100bb
You hold 88 on the button in a 6 max game. You are playing a TAG 20/12/3 game and have played with villian for a significant number of hands. (1000+) He is LAG at 25/20/4.
Nothing unusual about either of your table images.

You raise to 4xbb on the button after it's folded to you. Villian reraised to 12bb, you call for set odds.

There are two different scenario's here. One where the villian leads the flop and the other where he checks.
Flop comes 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Turn card is Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

How do your answers change if you have AK/images/graemlins/diamond.gif?

[Gelford]

Forget it, it is all read and table dynamics dependent with a good deal of feel.


I can't answer that.

[Leviathan101]

ah come on it's a theory post. give it a shot.

Gotta go to class. Probably won't be getting back to this today. Curious to see how you guys respond.

[thac]

This was like a choose your own adventure. A+

I check/fold fwiw

[AliasMrJones]

I think you have the roles reversed. Hero is supposed to be LAG in 6-max, no?

[jumbojacks]

If he's 3betting light, sometimes you don't have enough implied odds to call for set value since his 3betting range will be wide. So pf could be a mistake (depends on opponent and he should be pretty competent). Sometimes 4-betting can be reasonable too if you're deeper. I think since you have position, it makes this "easier" to play. Try being in the blinds after having your 3bet called. I think those situations would be much more interesting to analyze (though it's even more opponent dependent). This is just too opponent, game flow, etc. dependent to be answered properly I think.

[Quester]

20/12/3 is TAG?
25/20/4 is LAG?

This is 6-max, right?

Anyway, check/fold for me. I can find better places to take him, and risking half my stack or more with a mid pocket pair isn't my cup of tea, without any specific reads.

[soberforlife]

In regards to what do you do if you have AK suited in this situation...I shove PF after he re-raises

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
20/12/3 is nit
25/20/4 is TAG

This is 6-max.

[/ QUOTE ]

you shouldn't be playing 20/10 unless you are sitting at a table where other players are doing a lot of raising for you.
Fold preflop to the re-raise - we don't have good odds.

we have to call 8bb and need to coax a further 54bb from villains stack on average to break even if we hit.

If villain is halfway decent we aren't getting that much very often I think. e.g. we call flop the set and villain misses - we win a CB and little else - we flop the set and villain overplays rockets we win big - we miss the set and villain hits we lose - we miss the set and villain misses we fold to his flop bet often - we flop the set and villain hits a little something we might just make the extra 54bb we need.

Even vs a TAG whos very aggressive we aren't going to get the bigger bets on later streets in much, even with position I need a read that villain is overaggressive and will pay off to make this call preflop. Too much in reraised pots depends on our image, villains image, recent table history etc etc.

How often has he been 3-betting us?

If it's more often than normal (i.e. his range is wider than JJ+ AQs+ AK) 4bet to ~40bb and fold to a push, push a safeish flop if he calls pre, that flops about as safe as it gets. You look like an idiot when he snapcalls with Kings - but you look like a genius if he calls with AK or folds the flop.

If it's not often (he has a tight range for 3betting) just fold to the reraise.

[Leviathan101]

whoops... I probably should've put more thought into the numbers. I just used what I thought was TAG, but was thinking full ring. I probably could've just phrased this whole post differently, but I was bored and wanted to try something.

Anyways, I was kinda curious how you guys play reraised pots in general and thought of doing something different than just flat out asking.

I was thinking about a previous theory post that was floating around this week about playing AK in a reraised pot.
I think it's incredibly easy to pick up pots where you make a reraise and extremely difficult not to give a villian credit when they make a 3 bet preflop. I know this is kinda obvious, but I've been thinking about simply making plays with more marginal holdings, simply because the amount of respect you recieve when you 3 bet.

Anyways my post didn't quite go as well as I hoped do to NUMEROUS errors, but I was just testing an idea out. The standard line in a reraised pot where you aren't the aggresor seems to be roll over and fold if you miss your hand. Seems fine against the regular donks, but I was just thinking about more ideas and how to play reraised pots better. Thanks for the feedback!

[gimmetheloot]

Matrix, 4 betting to 40 BB is OK.

shoving a safeish flop, no. just spew.

[matrix]

why spew?

I'm doing this with a) a tight image myself

b) against idiots who are 3betting light and who oftentimes have unpaired broadway.

if the flop comes 972r and they check to me if I have 88 I'm betting and the pot would be 80bb I'd have 60bb behind hence shove.

If stacks are bigger make a reasonable CB and shutdown to further action - but with 100bb stacks c/f a missed flop (and with 88 7/8 flops miss) is weaksauce I think.

Once we 4bet pre we aren't playing for set value anymore - we're hoping he folds to the 4bet obv but we can't just give up if the flops not bad and he checks to us.

it's all read dependant mostly - we need to have a good idea of villains calling ranges in reraised pots before we 4 bet. IME so far villains aren't calling a flop push unless they have an overpair or AK at these limits we want AK to get all-in on that flop with 88 - of course TT+ is nevr folding but I think slightly more often than not if the flops 9 high then villain just missed and will tend to fold to a big flop bet, whereas often by the turn he'll have made a hand or feel committed I think.

whats your line on that flop if you 4bet in position and villain checks to you?