Help me understand something about dna..

[John21]

I look at a DNA molecule as organized information. Is this view wrong?

[Borodog]

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I look at a DNA molecule as organized information. Is this view wrong?

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No. That's all it is.

[madnak]

"Information" doesn't exist in any objective sense.

DNA is a double helix molecule of alternating phosphate-sugar groups with the helices connected by nitrogenous bases.

The DNA molecule is used by the cell to store its heritable information. That is, DNA is used in an information-storage capacity.

[John21]

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I look at a DNA molecule as organized information. Is this view wrong?

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No. That's all it is.

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"Information" doesn't exist in any objective sense.


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This is where I hit a wall. Do we define things as what they are (verifiable) or what they do (observable)?

[Borodog]

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"Information" doesn't exist in any objective sense.

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Of course it does. You can measure it, like mass, momentum, or energy. Once you agree on a definition, just like with those other things, other people can measure and agree with your measurement. That means it is objective.

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DNA is a double helix molecule of alternating phosphate-sugar groups with the helices connected by nitrogenous bases.

The DNA molecule is used by the cell to store its heritable information. That is, DNA is used in an information-storage capacity.

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No, the DNA uses the cell for protection and to do its dirty work for it. I shouldn't say "it", because "the" DNA of a cell is a colony of tens of thousands of cooperating genes, which are themselves relatively small bits of DNA.

[John21]

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No, the DNA uses the cell for protection and to do its dirty work for it. I shouldn't say "it", because "the" DNA of a cell is a colony of tens of thousands of cooperating genes, which are themselves relatively small bits of DNA.

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This was the point I was trying to get at in my other post, until it was hijacked by snowmen.

I can make a direct correlation between my own existence and a DNA molecule, but I can't make the same connection with a cell. At least as far as my reason goes, the cell and its functions, seems more like a house, car and phone - as far as I can conceive and relate to it.

I'm not sure if my understanding of the situations and/or processes are correct, but I am trying to make a concerted effort at grasping the abstract concept behind the relations, and appreciate all the "constructive" feedback I can get.

[madnak]

Think about it like this. Is a hard drive just information? No, a hard drive is a bunch of metal disks in a casing. If you wanted, you could use the hard drive as a blunt weapon, hit someone over the head with it. Or you could use it to prop open a window something.

The structure of the hard drive means its most intuitive use is as information. You could melt it down, use it as a weapon or a tool, etc, but there are typically better things to use for those purposes. So you get into the philosophical realm. Is the hard drive "inherently" an information-storage device, because that's its "ideal" use?

Hey, you answer the question about the hard drive and you have your answer about DNA as well. DNA can "do" all sorts of things in theory, but the only thing DNA is "good at" is storing information. Keep in mind, though, that just as the hard drive is at a reductionistic level just a bunch of metal, so a DNA molecule is at a reductionistic level just a bunch of atoms stuck together. Thus, to say that information is "all it is" is incorrect - just as a hard drive stores information in magnetic charges on the platters inside its casing, DNA stores information in base pairs inside its sugar-phosphate backbone.

[Girchuck]

But it is also an energy source for the body.
When you eat a piece of meat, you swallow and digest a very large number of DNA molecules, and none of them is used as an information storage. When an infected cell in your body is killed by an immune system, most of its DNA is cut into little pieces which releases energy to power the cell processes.
DNA is self-replicating storage media, but it does not control all the factors that cause it to be "read". Some genes never get expressed, others get expressed very rarely, depending on environmental factors.

[vhawk01]

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But it is also an energy source for the body.
When you eat a piece of meat, you swallow and digest a very large number of DNA molecules, and none of them is used as an information storage. When an infected cell in your body is killed by an immune system, most of its DNA is cut into little pieces which releases energy to power the cell processes.
DNA is self-replicating storage media, but it does not control all the factors that cause it to be "read". Some genes never get expressed, others get expressed very rarely, depending on environmental factors.

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'Dietary DNA' is definitely not a meaningful energy source for humans.

[Girchuck]

And neither is it information storage, which is what I tried to say

[vhawk01]

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And neither is it information storage, which is what I tried to say

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I dont get it. From our perspective, DNA is fundamentally and primarily used as a means of storing information. I mean, its not like we made DNA to do that for us, but thats what it does do from our perspective. Where am I going wrong, in your estimation?

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But it is also an energy source for the body.
When you eat a piece of meat, you swallow and digest a very large number of DNA molecules, and none of them is used as an information storage. When an infected cell in your body is killed by an immune system, most of its DNA is cut into little pieces which releases energy to power the cell processes.
DNA is self-replicating storage media, but it does not control all the factors that cause it to be "read". Some genes never get expressed, others get expressed very rarely, depending on environmental factors.

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'Dietary DNA' is definitely not a meaningful energy source for humans.

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But DNA is metabolized, so it's not "just" information. Of course, that's what makes it signficant and that's its major "purpose" in the body.

[thylacine]

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I look at a DNA molecule as organized information. Is this view wrong?

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There are some people who espouse the view that the entire universe is one giant (quantum) computer consisting of one-hundred-percent pure (quantum) information processing itself.

A larger group of people (including me, and I might be in the smaller subgroup too) at least agree that it is fair to say that the universe can be described in this way, depending how you define your terms.

But one thing for sure is that information is one of the mosy fundamental and important concepts in science. People who downplay the significance of information are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off base.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But it is also an energy source for the body.
When you eat a piece of meat, you swallow and digest a very large number of DNA molecules, and none of them is used as an information storage. When an infected cell in your body is killed by an immune system, most of its DNA is cut into little pieces which releases energy to power the cell processes.
DNA is self-replicating storage media, but it does not control all the factors that cause it to be "read". Some genes never get expressed, others get expressed very rarely, depending on environmental factors.

[/ QUOTE ]

'Dietary DNA' is definitely not a meaningful energy source for humans.

[/ QUOTE ]

But DNA is metabolized, so it's not "just" information. Of course, that's what makes it signficant and that's its major "purpose" in the body.

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I agree with that. I just dont think its a fair analogy to say that DNA is used as an energy source JUST LIKE its used as an information store, and therefore it cant be said to really be 'for' either one. Clearly there is one that its essential for, at least in humans.