[Stars 50NL] A few mistakes?

[Arnold Janssen]

Alright, here it goes, my first post ever on these wonderful forums.
I'm sorry if this seems like a pretty simple hand, I'm sure the level of my posts and questions will go up when time goes by.
I had just joined the table, villain joined a few minutes after me, so no read yet.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($51.75)
UTG ($60.05)
MP ($50.90)
Button ($29.95)
SB ($60.70)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, MP calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.5</font>, UTG folds, MP calls $2, SB calls $2.

Flop: ($8) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3.5</font>, MP calls $3.50, SB calls $3.50.

Turn: ($18.50) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $12</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $24</font>, SB folds, Hero ???

My first question, should I bet more on the flop? I didn't bet more because there is no direct flushdraw, and only a possible gutshot straight draw.

Second question, How do I play the turn, it seems like a good card, so I make a (I thought) decent/nice bet. He raises me the minimum, it looks like he isn't scared of draws, he might have the nuts already. Do I insta-fold here, or is that too weak, or do I call with my possible 4-outer?

Thanks for any reactions, I hope my first post isn't a bad one!

Arnold Janssen

[Sir Winalot]

Welcome to 2+2, your post is great for being a first one.

The usual 2+2 standard preflop is 4BB+1BB per limper, as this will usually get you 1-2 callers and it's a roughly potsized bet.

Your flop bet is weak sauce, I'd make it 6-8. Turn is a little closer, but usually I bet slightly more. I would usually 3-bet AI on turn.

[BukNaked36]

Generally for me:
flop - 3/4 to full pot
turn - 2/3 to 3/4 pot
river - 1/2 to 2/3 pot

$12 call for a $55 pot ~ 4.5:1
4 outs = 8% ~ 12:1

Turn is a judgement call. You're definitely not getting drawing odds. If you think you're ahead call, if not fold.

Personally, I think at best you are splitting the pot and fold, but I'm a wuss.

[King Spew]

Arnold,,, welcome.

I would define my hand on the flop. You have some reverse implied odds here so I would like to end this one early. TPTK hands win a bunch on the early streets,,,,, losing on the later streets. Lets pot size bet the flop.... or maybe 3/4 pot. (what size are your CBets? when OOP) If you get called on a pot sized bet, you can pretty much rule out the gutshot so your play will be against another Ax, high pairs, sets, 2pair particularly w/o a FD.

Now as played:

You showed EXTREME weaksauce on flop so when villain MINIraises your turn, put yourself in his shoes with QJ. Wouldn't have been nice to already rule out QJ?

You can almost rule out AA, KK, or AK because no PFR either time villain had a choice...

The only hand you have to worry (discounting QJ:::: if he's got QJ, you screwed yourself) about is a poorly played set, whether TT or 66. Some villains will slow play a set on the flop, but when you look at the fact that you have (a) about $33 left behind after your turn bet, (b) most villains will give you AK on as a starting PFR hand and (c) you seem to like your hand on the turn so villain might really put you on AK.......

You tell me, what would you do if you were villain and hero bet into your set give A,B,C above? /images/graemlins/ooo.gif (Just a clue, at your stakes, very rarely will you see a mini IMO)

[munkey]

Welcome Arnold.
If you haven't already check out the uNL sticky and the SSNL sticky too- full of wondorous threads.

As to the hand in question -preflop standard raise is 4xbb +1 bb per limper or 'bet the pot button' (not on Stars).

I would bet 3/4 flop for value vs weaker Ax mainly and agree with what King Spew and others have said.

Good sized turn bet 2/3pot. Now the tricky turn minraise says your 1pair is beat but now we have 2pair.
Problem is most villans always assume we have AK as the PFR. Since villans limp behind UTG+1 and call of our PFR QJ/66 are the only hands that fit with villans play so far that beat us.

I think a fold is best vs. unknown/decent players but if there weren't 3 broadway cards on board and the board was more drawy so villan is more likely to hold a draw and villan was particularly loose/aggressive I just push the turn.

We have 4 outs to FH, 4 outs to potential split str8 and already hold 2pair which vs aggressive loose players that might do this with a weaker 2pair.

reading the replies, sorry for repeating much that has already been said - bad day /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Genz]

*grunch* (meaning: I haven't read the other posts yet)

Welcome!
Bet more on the flop. There are only gut-shot-draws, but giving 4:1 odds is still pretty much and you just have TP. So you want to make someone fold. I would bet at least 2/3 of the pot-size here.

The turn is a tough one. I see myself going AI there very often. But I think that's incorrect. I'd probably call and depending on the river, I'd make a defensive bet. On the other hand, villain has invested more than 50% of his stack in this hand. So he is rather commited anyway. The same is true for you if you call. So I'd probably reraise all-in. If he has QJ, you should curse about your smallish flop-bet. If he has a set, too bad.

[Phytopath]

Min raises scare me, they almost always mean you are up against a big hand. You have top two though so this is a tricky spot, you are beating AT and KT which alot of people will play this way, so it is a pretty difficult choice here. I'd fold here without reads, most of the time.

[Arnold Janssen]

Thanks for your replies all.
So it turns out my topic title was the right one, but I could've put an '!' instead of '?'.
The flop bet is(was) my standard bet for the flop, sometimes a little less, sometimes more. (My CBets are usually 1/2 pot, unless it's someone who doesn't fold easily, but will take a stab at the pot if I just check, against those players I will sometimes bet 3/4 or pot as a CBet.) I'll make sure that I will show more strength on the flop in the future.

"You tell me, what would you do if you were villain and hero bet into your set give A,B,C above?"
I would probably do the same, in his eyes it is so easy to play of course, given a, b and c. I should've maken it harder for him.


"You showed EXTREME weaksauce on flop so when villain MINIraises your turn, put yourself in his shoes with QJ. Wouldn't have been nice to already rule out QJ?", Yes, it sure would've been nice, but ofcourse, when he miniraised me I couldnt rule that out. The first thing I thought was: "Oh god, he has made a straight!" Even though I thought that, I called his raise, which is stupid(I see that now), since it's either raise or fold. That is also a problem with me, calling down when I know that I'm 99% beat. I will work on that.

Here is the complete hand.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($51.75)
UTG ($60.05)
MP ($50.90)
Button ($29.95)
SB ($60.70)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, MP calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.5</font>, UTG folds, MP calls $2, SB calls $2.

Flop: ($8) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3.5</font>, MP calls $3.50, SB calls $3.50.

Turn: ($18.50) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $12</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $24</font>, SB folds, Hero calls $12.

River: ($66.50) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $20.9 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls $20.90.

Final Pot: $108.30

So, lost $50 by playing the hand poorly. But really I'm glad that I lost the hand, because that was the reason I posted it, I really had some troubles with the hand (in my head) after I played it like I did. Because I have posted the hand and thanks to your replies I will make more $$$ in the future, so I think it has been a good investment. /images/graemlins/wink.gif
Luckily my bankroll can easily handle losses like this, because I have &gt;40 buy-ins at hand.

So thanks again, and look forward to seeing more of my posts in the future /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Arnold

ps.: Excuse me for saying "I" so often, and for my way too long sentences and "blabla".
ps.2: As played..on the river, of course I couldnt fold, getting more than 4-1. Since I wasn't going to fold anyway on the river, would it have been better to just go all in myself? Or is a check call(stupid pay off move) fine?

[Genz]

what did villain actually have? QJ or a set? And believe me: if have made plays that are far more stupid than that. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Arnold Janssen]

The convertor didn't put the result in, I don't know why, but here it is:

Board [As Td 6c Kh 5c]
Seat 2: 7oui7_7oui7 (big blind) mucked [Ad Kd]
Seat 3: laxdogg22 folded before Flop
Seat 4: crisparis75 showed [Qs Jc] and won ($106.30) with a straight, Ten to Ace
Seat 5: angrydave16 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: brudman (small blind) folded on the Turn

[Sadat X]

[ QUOTE ]
Min raises scare me, they almost always mean you are up against a big hand. You have top two though so this is a tricky spot, you are beating AT and KT which alot of people will play this way, so it is a pretty difficult choice here. I'd fold here without reads, most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be a weak fold, IMO. I push the turn without a read.

On the flop, $6 would probably be a good amount to CB. Flop is pretty ragged, this should get weak aces to call and dangerous hands like QJ to go away.

[Mossberg]

[ QUOTE ]

The usual 2+2 standard preflop is 4BB+1BB per limper, as this will usually get you 1-2 callers and it's a roughly potsized bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey guys,

I'm new to NL as well and have been reading Phil Gordon's "Little Green Book". He recommends varying your PF raise based on position.

Early position: 2.5x-3.0x
Middle position: 3.0x-3.5x
Late position: 3.5x-4.0x
Small blind: 3.0x

Should I toss this advice out the window? Have you all discovered from experience that just a standard 4x raise is optimal from all position?

Thanks in advance!

[Sadat X]

I don't know about'optimal' but it certainly makes multitabling easier, and I really don't think you're giving up much playing that way.

[wingchunflush]

I would raise more on the flop 7-8 seems good. As played I can fold the turn here, sucks but hey it happens.

[AnjoRush]

If u bet more more on flop, bet 2/3 on turn and STILL get raised, preety much u are behind, but as played, the guy could have anything, so i'd push easy here without reads...

Maybe the made a set or something but can't know well.

"A few mistakes?"
I see 2 mistakes:

1- raise more PF cause you have a good hand, but u are out of position, so win the pot on flop is a great deal.
2- Bet more on flop cause, again you are out of position and hitted TPTK, u want him to pay you off and don't draw cheaply and maybe he has another weak ace, and you can make more money making him pay.

And good luck at tables... I can see you maybe in 1 month at NL100 if you improve reading 2+2 /images/graemlins/smile.gif cause i guess you already have bankroll (40 buy in)