NL50 Play along! QJs [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

neverforgetlol

11-30-2006, 10:12 AM

not any great reads at this point. some of this is standard but might as well do the whole thing.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

MP ($47.55)
CO ($55.80)
Button ($66.55)
Hero ($49.50)
BB ($33.75)
UTG ($48.70)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, CO raises to $1, 1 fold, Hero

Jigsaws

11-30-2006, 10:16 AM

For a minraise I call. I don't like repopping because minraisers are usually donks, and donks usually call.

Badger83

11-30-2006, 10:20 AM

call, raising is likely to get us oop with a hand that could get us in trouble without a very good flop.

neverforgetlol

11-30-2006, 10:21 AM

Figured.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

MP ($47.55)
CO ($55.80)
Button ($66.55)
Hero ($49.50)
BB ($33.75)
UTG ($48.70)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, CO raises to $1, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.75, BB calls $0.50, UTG calls $0.50.

Flop: ($4) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero

munkey

11-30-2006, 10:27 AM

Call preflop, check call/flop assuming he doesn't open shove /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Sometimes I lead given board, likely most have missed -depends on villans/my out of the blinds pot stealing image.

Jigsaws

11-30-2006, 10:41 AM

Check, see what happens. Too many people to profitably semi-bluff.

neverforgetlol

11-30-2006, 10:42 AM

now the big question. do i jack it up here or try to be tricky?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

MP ($47.55)
CO ($55.80)
Button ($66.55)
Hero ($49.50)
BB ($33.75)
UTG ($48.70)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, CO raises to $1, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.75, BB calls $0.50, UTG calls $0.50.

Flop: ($4) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $1.5, UTG folds, CO raises to $3, Hero

munkey

11-30-2006, 10:51 AM

flop:
Hmm tricky - BB may have oesd/fdraw/set or 76 sc hit 2pair or probing a weak overpair.
I would likely call the 3$ minraise and see if BB reraises and CO's reaction - if BB reraises decently I'm mucking.

avfletch

11-30-2006, 10:54 AM

I play this a lot more aggressively on the flop. I'd lead for about half the pot in the hopes that BB calls with some mediocre holding then CO raises so I can push.

homeslice

11-30-2006, 10:59 AM

I just flat call here.

neverforgetlol

11-30-2006, 11:02 AM

good we have some differing opinions on my play here. The thing is, my club outs are almost surely good, and maybe my Q and J. so i have perhaps 25% equity or so? How would you judge my equity on this flop?

Imrahil

11-30-2006, 11:04 AM

At first I thought you should bet the flop, but with so many people in and having only a FD + overs, I think checking is the best line. I'd call the min raise.

avfletch

11-30-2006, 11:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
good we have some differing opinions on my play here. The thing is, my club outs are almost surely good, and maybe my Q and J. so i have perhaps 25% equity or so? How would you judge my equity on this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if pfr has AA then you have 35% pot equity.

munkey

11-30-2006, 11:11 AM

If we reraise and reopen the betting on this flop we destroy our implied odds to hit our flush if 4bet. It isn't a nut draw,we're 3 way with 2 players that so far seem to like their hands so our FE is limited and I doubt out Q/J outs are particularly good -maybe 1out for both - so 10 outs incl. the flush max. So the last thing I'm doing is pushing/rrz this flop.

If I was IP I usually raise the flop but OOP -check call is best with a frdaw multiway IMHO (I posted a similar hand long time ago in ye olde SSNL)

neverforgetlol

11-30-2006, 11:18 AM

i decided to call.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

MP ($47.55)
CO ($55.80)
Button ($66.55)
Hero ($49.50)
BB ($33.75)
UTG ($48.70)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, CO raises to $1, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.75, BB calls $0.50, UTG calls $0.50.

Flop: ($4) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $1.5, UTG folds, CO raises to $3, Hero calls $3, BB calls $1.50.

Turn: ($13) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero

Yahtzee! Now do i bet out, or go for a c/r? Which one disguised my hand more?

Imrahil

11-30-2006, 11:20 AM

I just lead out for $8.

munkey

11-30-2006, 11:43 AM

ZOMG great card - lead this turn weakly and 3bet AI if raised by either ~8ish$ -a c/r has more FE and gives away our hand and allow villans to get away more -hopefully BB's set/2pair will get AI on this turn. Also BB smooth called CO's raise so if you bet BB may call and CO raise us again.

HNIC

11-30-2006, 11:46 AM

I would lead out here with a bet along the lines of what Imrahil suggested hoping to keep the BB in the hand also where a c/r might make the action back to BB too much for him to call.

How is my thinking with keeping BB in the hand? Or should we be trying to get it all in with the CO heads up?

kazana

11-30-2006, 11:52 AM

CO could have many hands depending on his donkfactor. This could be 22+ or any 2 suited from him. The minraise on the flop could mean a draw (if he's solidish and aggro), a set or straight (if he's donkish/trappy).

tbh, I'm not thrilled with BB still being in the hand and the way he's been playing this so far. I think there's a decent chance that he had a flush draw, and if he did, it's likely better than ours. It could be a set, too, but I'd have to know that he's half blind (not scared of drawy flops) to put him on that.

After the turn A/images/graemlins/club.gif scarecard, a lead would fold out most weakish hands, that might still pay some more on the river.
Sets won't fold. If BB has the flush, too, he should wake up massively right now.

I go for a check here and see what the other guys do. I'm not going for a raise. I'm aiming for more value on a non-pairing river.

Imrahil

11-30-2006, 11:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
CO could have many hands depending on his donkfactor. This could be 22+ or any 2 suited from him. The minraise on the flop could mean a draw (if he's solidish and aggro), a set or straight (if he's donkish/trappy).

tbh, I'm not thrilled with BB still being in the hand and the way he's been playing this so far. I think there's a decent chance that he had a flush draw, and if he did, it's likely better than ours. It could be a set, too, but I'd have to know that he's half blind (not scared of drawy flops) to put him on that.

After the turn A/images/graemlins/club.gif scarecard, a lead would fold out most weakish hands, that might still pay some more on the river.
Sets won't fold. If BB has the flush, too, he should wake up massively right now.

I go for a check here and see what the other guys do. I'm not going for a raise. I'm aiming for more value on a non-pairing river.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you say that if BB has a flush it must be better than ours right now? There are plenty more flushes that we currently beat than lose to. I think a c/r gets checked through here when that A scares the players. If we bet they may still call but be scared of the ace and the flush. We have to build up the pot.

avfletch

11-30-2006, 12:07 PM

Given that that Ac is on the board and we have QcJc him having a K high flush seems rather unlikely.

kazana

11-30-2006, 12:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How can you say that if BB has a flush it must be better than ours right now? There are plenty more flushes that we currently beat than lose to. I think a c/r gets checked through here when that A scares the players. If we bet they may still call but be scared of the ace and the flush. We have to build up the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying that if he has the flush it must be better than ours. I'm just saying it's likely that it is.

If the A scares the players, so will the fact that it is a club. I don't see any hand weaker than two pair that will call a lead here. Maybe a very, very brave/dumb Ax.

I'm assuming that pocketpairs make a big part of both villain's ranges, so I'm trying to get the most value out of those hands. If BB has the higher flush, well that's just bad luck, but I'm fairly positive that he's got something like that if it isn't a pocketpair he's holding.

Many hands that won't fold to a lead will bet this turn. Many hands that would fold to a lead, will be willing to pay off another bet on the river just to see showdown.

BombayBadboy

11-30-2006, 12:12 PM

Hmm, I'm a bit late for this one but I still like to comment on the flop play. I really like a lead here. People that minraise preflop don't c-bet nearly as much as people that make a decent sized raise according to my experiences. I have a potential monster, I want to build the pot a little.

I don't mind someone reraising me. If he does, I likely have a shot on his stack by the turn.

P.S.
Arguments that people will fold their overpairs when a flush arrives doesnt count on these stakes IMO.

kazana

11-30-2006, 12:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Given that that Ac is on the board and we have QcJc him having a K high flush seems rather unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]
See, my point of view is, given that the highest other flush cards he could've completed from BB with preflop is T/images/graemlins/club.gif makes it more likely it is Kx/images/graemlins/club.gif.
The problem is, that this depends a lot on how you perceive BB's skill.

kazana

11-30-2006, 12:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
P.S.
Arguments that people will fold their overpairs when a flush arrives doesnt count on these stakes IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
Erm... Overpairs on an A-high board? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

munkey

11-30-2006, 12:30 PM

I got to go in a bit turn action plz?

BTW I hink BB may be slightly donkish 33$ in his stack.

Check_The_Nuts

11-30-2006, 01:19 PM

I think by checking then calling the minraise on the flop you defined your hand as a draw. IMO no thinking player will pay you off now.

I would lead, maybe hope he thinks you check/called a set on the flop, which is pretty frekin fishy to do or check/called with some sort of weak one pair hand.

BombayBadboy

11-30-2006, 01:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
P.S.
Arguments that people will fold their overpairs when a flush arrives doesnt count on these stakes IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
Erm... Overpairs on an A-high board? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

BombayBadboy

11-30-2006, 01:30 PM

As for the turn play, definately lead. Villains suspect someone has the draw, and will often check behind. He will not, however, fold to your bet. He might have the K of clubs or a set and will pay to see the river. He might also be a donk that just can't lay down an A.

I think 3/4 pot is a nice amount to lead for.

neverforgetlol

11-30-2006, 01:53 PM

Seems like most people are saying lead. But I think a c/r gets us some value while a lead really looks like a flush.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

MP ($47.55)
CO ($55.80)
Button ($66.55)
Hero ($49.50)
BB ($33.75)
UTG ($48.70)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, CO raises to $1, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.75, BB calls $0.50, UTG calls $0.50.

Flop: ($4) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $1.5, UTG folds, CO raises to $3, Hero calls $3, BB calls $1.50.

Turn: ($13) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, CO bets $3, Hero raises to $9, BB folds, CO calls $6.

River: ($31) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $17,

Imrahil

11-30-2006, 01:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
IMO no thinking player will pay you off now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it's great that we're playing 50NL then /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I like the $17 bet on the end, but I think you could go for something like $25. Villain could have aces up and he will probably pay a larger bet off.

munkey

11-30-2006, 02:11 PM

I bet 22$ river as played -if he calls 17$ he'll probably call 22$ /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Brian O'Nolan

11-30-2006, 02:59 PM

If you are going to c/r, I think it needs to be closer to pot size. As played you aren't likely to get paid off on a river shove w/ as much strength as you've shown the last 2 steets vs. anything but another flush. And you want to get AI here.

Phytopath

11-30-2006, 03:11 PM

I call pre-flop and usually lead the flop 2$ or so. Anyway if you just call the flop which is fine and should definately be done, but make sure you mix up how you play your draws, then I would definately lead the turn. Hopefully he can beat a pair of Aces, if he can he'll probably raise and you can then push. By Check-raising you are really letting him off cheaply if he is 1/2 decent. You didn't checkraise that much if the villian has a set he'll be getting a good price to call here.