KK BB Everybody folds to SB

[Coz]

This is my first hand at the table, I watched a few rounds and obviously they weren't the greatest players, there were usually alot more players to the flop however. Villian had been playing tight. My reasoning for not betting pre-flop is because I wanted action and didn't want to waste Kings, if he had an ace he probably would have raised it seeing as it was only me and him. I came really close to folding this though, thought that he had at least two pair, however, I reasoned that he would have played something like KQ or QJ the same way. Usually if I am beat I get a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach, this hand I didn't and called. Was this a really bad call?

Poker Stars
Pot Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
9 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $2.50
UTG+1: $2.05
MP1: $9.65
MP2: $13.15
MP3: $4.90
CO: $9.55
Button: $9.95
SB: $12.55
Hero: $10

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif
7 folds, SB calls, Hero checks.

Flop: 8/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif ($0.2, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $0.3</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $0.9</font>, SB calls.

Turn: 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($2, 2 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $1.2</font>, SB calls.

River: J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($4.4, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $5.1</font>, Hero calls $5.1 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was $9.5)</font>.

Results:
Final pot: $14.6

[Imrahil]

Raise PF.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise PF.

[/ QUOTE ]
qft

why is everyone so content on slow playing tonight? that is a NO NO

[avfletch]

There's another thread in the top few at the moment about slow playing big pocket pairs. The main conclusion is DON'T!

If you think that sb is folding most holdings you shouldn't start raising less hands you should start raising more.

[jonyy6788]

Raise preflop to .40

We are behind a billion hands here....any two pair, any set, 69, 910, any diamond flush (not as likely). My guess is 910 or at least two pair.

Without raising preflop we have no clue what villain has. This of course, is often the case with somebody that plays anything, but you should still be able to label a general range. Here, since you didn't raise preflop, he could have ANYTHING.

[Imrahil]

Also, expect to be beaten on the river. He's not bluffing and has a hand but is it better than yours? I think so. I may just fold on the river getting 2 to 1. I see you winning like 1 in 5 times.

[Phytopath]

If you had a read on the SB and he raised it a decent amount, then you can sometimes slowplay your KK here. However, please this is awful and stop it against unknowns, unless you are playing me.

[Sir Winalot]

Preflop is a very neat way to lose value with KK.

[Brian O'Nolan]

Try raising any 2 when it's folded to the SB and he completes, and follow up with a cbet. It will really make you more comfortable playing all hands from big pairs to suited connectors, and you're always in position when you make this play. And never, ever play this hand like you played it here again.

[Gelford]

Stop talking about pf ... that sucked but errr ... (PF: Sure a raise looks like a steal and if you are lucky a hand like Ace rag, pp or QJ might even reraise you)

But first of all
You say you do not want to lose action with you kings, so you reraise flop .. lol

You have your overpair HU, that precious KK that you didn't want to waiste and now you are talking about folding it ???


I do not understand you Sir !

[Supwithbates]

I don't think anyone here has said WHY not to check here.

If we've been fairly passive in blind vs. blind confrontations, then raising will send up warning bells and generally fold out a lot of hands that we could otherwise extract from (I would recommend working on shania if this is the case). So why is checking a bad play, when we get to see a flop in position with a disguised but powerful hand?

There are actually several problems as I see it. First and foremost is that we are failing to extract any value on a street in which we're almost certain we're ahead. Not only does this lose us this initial bet itself, but it also loses us significant value on later streets as the pot will be smaller, making betsizes proportionally smaller as well. Most uNL players are not folding to our raise with a lot of marginal hands that could stack off with top pair.

But the problems go deeper than that. Minus a very strong read on a specific villian, a SB limp does not define his hand. Very often villian will be holding any 2, and it will be difficult to read his hand even with the advantage of position. In a blind vs. blind, players can often get attached to much less than top pair, so are you really going to get away cheaply if the flop comes AQ7 with two diamonds? Because blind vs. blind battles are often more aggressively played with weaker holdings, this makes our decisionmaking postflop significantly harder because villian's range is ATC. While this can provide many profitable situations, it also can lead to us stacking off, and can often leave us with significant reverse implied odds.

Raising, on the other hand, allows us to put villian on a narrower range. WHile this shouldn't be your primary concern, I believe that there is some value to it. Hands like T6o aren't going to stack off with a pair of 6s, but a hand like QTo will stack off on a T-high flop or Q-high flop. In otherwords, we can be more confident that the action we're getting is action that we want. Allowing the SB to get a free look with a hand as powerful as KK is shouldering immense reverse implied odds. It might sometimes be correct in the very highstakes games if you're playing against Doyle Brunson, because deception becomes so much more important at those stakes; in uNL a more straightforward approach will maximize value.

[Supwithbates]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, expect to be beaten on the river. He's not bluffing and has a hand but is it better than yours? I think so. I may just fold on the river getting 2 to 1. I see you winning like 1 in 5 times.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can see this overbet being a bluff sometimes; the flush was backdoor so it's less likely, and this could be a busted draw/float attempt vs. an unknown. It may still be a fold but I'd say it's closer to 2.5:1 and you're getting 1.8:1