Making use of a bad line

[poincaraux]

So, I'm re-learning all sorts of things these days. That sucks, but sometimes it's interesting.

So, $50NL, reasonable stacks, a limper or two, a raise and I reraise in position with AK. Flop comes uncoordinated undercards, I c-bet and get called. Turn is a blank and I check behind. We get to the river with something like $32 in the pot and $34 in my stack. Villain checks, I shove, he thinks for a while and calls me with unimproved 44s, saying "you gave your hand away on the turn" in the chat window. Of course, right after that, he leaves the table.

So .. what do you do about that? Is that line as bad/transparent as the villain said? When would you ever use that line?

I've been thinking about that a bit. I'm taking it for granted that the line looks very fishy.

So, a couple of nights later I'm at a table where I'm playing around with making all of my bets full-pot sized. $50 stacks, maybe a limper or two, I raise pre-flop in position. Flop is uncoordinated (well, slightly coordinated, but not scary) undercards. I c-bet for the full pot and get called, leaving us with ~30 in the pot and a little more in our stacks. Turn is a blank (I don't remember the exact board at this point, and I think there could have been a strange straight draw, or the turn might have put a two-flush on the board, but nothing that you'd expect to affect things much), I check behind. River is another blank, villain checks, I shove. This time, I have AA. Good?

[avfletch]

If the board is reasonably dry then controlling the size of the pot and trying to induce bluffs from villain is a good move with a holding like AA.

If there's any reasonable draw out there then you're usually better off trying to charge them for it unless you have a read that they won't chase draws all over the place.

[Longy]

I think in micro limits assume everyone is a donk until they prove otherwise. Thats why i don't like hand 1 as they are liable to call with anything that beats you, his comment is just a donk thinking he is on tv or something and telling you what a superstar he is.

2nd hand i like you are pot controlling in position and then your river shove is in affect a large value bet by these donks. I think checking the turn here is read dependent i will often do it against one of my favourite villans the compulsive river bluffer and there are plenty of them around.

[Dan Bitel]

poin,

you shld value check that turn with AA a lot

and yeah, your line with AK sucks

[kaz2107]

it sounds like u r startin to figure things out imo. checking the turn when u cbet all flops shows a ton of weakness and can give u A TON of calls on the river that typically fold the turn to ur 2nd barrel. so obv u dont wanna fire the river as much ith a bluff when u check the turn and more often when u have a maide hand such as AA

[Panthro]

most villain's read the flop cbet, turn check, river push as a desperation bluff...because most of the time it is; The majority of ML donks rarely check the turn in position with a good/great hand, as they'd rather bet for value than check behind for pot control. And even if, they'd make a smaller bet on the river trying to get paid off.

I really like the way you played the second hand, especially if your villain was the "thinking" type. It's definately profitable to use this line with monsters/overpairs.

[Bowlboy]

I've actually been thinking about this to some degree recently where I give away my hand by cbetting the flop and checking behind on the turn. I'll take this line often against calling stations on a dry board or if I get 2-3 callers on my cbet. This line wreaks of whiffed overcards so bad that any TAG, LAG, or complete donkey just wont be able to resist attempting to take this pot away from you, especially if they've seen you take this line and fold the river before.

This is a great example of making use of a bad line though I already kinda knew about it because I've tried it out against a LAG with a flopped set, and the guy overbet the river and I got him all-in. No idea what hand it is now though but I'll try and find it in PT.

Can anybody think of any other bad/obvious lines this concept can apply to?

[poincaraux]

[ QUOTE ]
poin,

you shld value check that turn with AA a lot

and yeah, your line with AK sucks

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think i've ever heard that phrase before. interesting. value being some combination of

- i hate a c/r
- people will fold to a turn bet but call a river value bet
- people may bluff on the river

so mostly to gain value on the river where i couldn't get it on the turn, or what?

[SpecT]

yeah im pretty sure that's wat value check means, your river bet will be called more often if you have checked the turn rather than bet it

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
poin,

you shld value check that turn with AA a lot

and yeah, your line with AK sucks

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think i've ever heard that phrase before. interesting. value being some combination of

- i hate a c/r
- people will fold to a turn bet but call a river value bet
- people may bluff on the river

so mostly to gain value on the river where i couldn't get it on the turn, or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

yea that is basically it. u open up villians call range on the river as well as villian will bluff missed draws sometimes as well. deff +EV to check the turn in certain situations.

the key is decdidng which villians to do this against and on wut board/holding to do it with