50NL 6m: KK on horrible board [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

Jigsaws

11-29-2006, 06:56 AM

Villain is unknown. The JJ hand I posted in the microbrew thread happened an orbit ago (vs. another player on this table).

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

CO ($90.25)
Button ($46.15)
Hero ($84)
BB ($29.75)
UTG ($13.70)
MP ($20.80)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, MP calls $0.50, CO raises to $1.5, 1 fold, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, MP folds, CO calls $4.50.

Flop: ($13) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $9, CO calls $9.

Turn: ($31) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)

What's the plan now?

CityLife

11-29-2006, 07:06 AM

I slow down on the turn here. Any pair from 66-TT you're way behind, and obviously AA you're behind. It's unlikely CO is calling the flop bet with AK or AQ or a pair smaller than 55, so most likely the only hands you beat are JJ and QQ. I might call a small bet on the turn, but I'll fold to a big bet.

I'd also bet a little less on the flop, say $6-7. Keeps the pot a little smaller, though it is a draw-heavy board so a slightly bigger bet is ok.

Everlong

11-29-2006, 07:15 AM

If villain is truly unknown I cannot put him on a range that actually is ahead of us after that weird pre-flop action.
An unknowns range here is QJs+ or some donkishly played JJ+ with a small mix of sets and random cards.

I bet around $25 and am happy to felt either here or on a non-spade river.

Jigsaws

11-29-2006, 07:29 AM

Seriously? You bet $25 and if he shoves, you call? We're talking about nearly two buyins here.

Everlong

11-29-2006, 07:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously? You bet $25 and if he shoves, you call? We're talking about nearly two buyins here.

[/ QUOTE ]

He called a 2/3 pot bet on flop. That doesn't put him ahead of you.

Because he is unknown I have to make a decision based on pf action.

I don't see him raising a limper to 3xbb with J8 or 66-99. Possibly AA - as some people want to ensure action pf.

Then just flat-calling your 4x re-raise ?

I still maintain the original range biased heavily towards two high spades. A set would probably raise on such a drawy board?

Yes in a vacuum I bet and call a raise. At the table I honestly don't know - stacks are deep and it's still pretty cheap to let go.

Gelford

11-29-2006, 07:40 AM

I'd give it up ... might be on A9 or similar and he migt be on a flushdraw ... he also might be holding air and just forcing you out of the hand, but OOP with a board like that I don't feel the urge to fight over a small pot.

The only things we are beating are ace something other than AJ and QQ and even if he is on a flushdraw, I do not think his equity is that bad that combined with the possibilities of two pair hands like some SC or pp's hitting a set that you are ahead.

It is a reraised pot, so villians range is not big.

Whether to checkfold or take a final stab at the pot is a matter of personal preference, here I might go majorly weaktight and just checkfold

Hail Eris

11-29-2006, 07:55 AM

It's not that horrible. You should be way ahead here more often than not.

Fwiw, you're probably afraid of this board because you didn't put enough $$ in preflop considering the stacks.

Gelford

11-29-2006, 07:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Fwiw, you're probably afraid of this board because you didn't put enough $$ in preflop considering the stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ermm Hrmmmpf .... well ... no!

Hail Eris

11-29-2006, 08:14 AM

You have to adjust the size of your preflop bets and raises to the size of the stacks you expect to get action from. I don't know why this advice isn't repeated here more frequently (or, um, at all), because I think it makes a lot of postflop decisions much easier.

I can't count the number of times I've had to fold good overpairs or AK TPTK type hands on very mild boards simply because I was deep, my hand carried huge RIO, and villain's preflop calling range was much wider than I should have allowed it to be.

Just the other day I very nearly got stacked for like 200BB holding AA on a dry, dry board because my "standard" 3bet allowed villain to correctly call with 22 and spike a set.

Gelford

11-29-2006, 08:31 AM

So how much would you raise too ?? (there are many things wrong with your reasoning, but Im playing, so I'll get back to you)1

Tiki

11-29-2006, 08:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I still maintain the original range biased heavily towards two high spades. A set would probably raise on such a drawy board?

[/ QUOTE ]

A set might not feel the need to raise given hero's re-raise PF. We hold K /images/graemlins/spade.gif which means there are only three potential high spade hands. 77-QQ are more likely IMO.

I'd try and see a cheap showdown. Bet 1/2 pot on turn and stroke rabbits foot furiously.

A tough hand to play OOP.

eigenvalue

11-29-2006, 08:38 AM

I don't like to pump up the pot OOP in this position. Think about RIO! This is no spot where I want to play for my entire stack. I would go for a check/call on the turn and would lead the river with a bet of 1/2 - 2/3 of the pot if no scare card appears. If he checks the turn behind, I would check the river to induce a bluff. I don't like to play overly aggressive and get pot committed soon in this spot OOP.

munkey

11-29-2006, 09:08 AM

Tough OOP and the board is really bad.

I might bet 20$ turn and check river OR check turn lead river -but I think leading turn checking river is better because if raised we can fold and JJ+ may call the turn and check behind the river given the board is also scary for them if they hold an overpair.

Problem is we're ahead JJ+ Ak/AQs, behind to TT- medium pairs.

MadMat

11-29-2006, 09:41 AM

Whats RIO ??????

Mat

Everlong

11-29-2006, 09:43 AM

Reverse implied odds.
There was a topic of the week about that last week I think

MadMat

11-29-2006, 09:46 AM

Ahhh not seen it written like that before /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Mat

Gelford

11-29-2006, 10:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You have to adjust the size of your preflop bets and raises to the size of the stacks you expect to get action from. I don't know why this advice isn't repeated here more frequently (or, um, at all), because I think it makes a lot of postflop decisions much easier.

I can't count the number of times I've had to fold good overpairs or AK TPTK type hands on very mild boards simply because I was deep, my hand carried huge RIO, and villain's preflop calling range was much wider than I should have allowed it to be.

Just the other day I very nearly got stacked for like 200BB holding AA on a dry, dry board because my "standard" 3bet allowed villain to correctly call with 22 and spike a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically Hall, what you are saying is to raise it up pf so that a pp does not have odds to draw to a set. That is hard to do in a 100BB setting

Also you are defining you hand by doing it .... and finally you limit your raising range, since nit all hand can play for huge raises all the time.

And finally you are more or less signaling that you are willing to go broke.

It just bugs you to lay down a hand like AA or similar, but that is nonsense.

And getting stacked for 200BB with AA is not due to pf play, but poor postflop play.

eigenvalue

11-29-2006, 10:03 AM

Reversed implied odds. This is a flop where You will win a little when You are ahead or - if You play aggressive - You loose a lot if You are behind. So play careful in this spot.

wallywojo

11-29-2006, 12:51 PM

Sorry for the highjack, but in this situation when you want to control the pot, what is the best way to play so that you are not shoved off by a lesser hand?

Does everyone prefer a half-pot bet and fold to a raise over check/fold?

ImprovinNewbie

11-29-2006, 12:56 PM

pot it on the flop with 2 amjor draws... but i dont see many hands like this calling such a big re-raise pf.

derosnec

11-29-2006, 01:19 PM

reraised pot and you are deep. i'd bet less on the flop (check out CTS's Well thread on playing in reraised pots) and give up to agression on the turn. i'd rather protect my big stack than charge possible draws/stack QQ-JJ

Jigsaws

11-29-2006, 02:21 PM

I normally bet less in reraised pots (probably $7), but I think $9 is good on this board.

Eris, to how much would you have reraised preflop?

Btw, I thought for a while, then made it $20. He insta-shoved ($50 more to me). I folded. I can't say I was too happy with that outcome, but I can't see how we can check-call here. I think check-fold might actually be the best option. Ugh. It's just a sick spot, and I'm not really sure.

Imrahil

11-29-2006, 02:41 PM

Here's a somewhat similar instance. Villain is like 40/20/2 or something like that.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($24.55)
Button ($26.40)
Hero ($31.05)
BB ($22.95)
UTG ($17)
MP ($14.30)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, MP raises to $0.5, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2, BB calls $1.75, MP folds.

Flop: ($4.50) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $4.5, BB raises to $10, Hero raises to $29.05, BB calls $10.95 (All-In).

Turn: ($54.50) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($54.50) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $54.50

Sam Spade

11-29-2006, 02:59 PM

Unknown villain has a wide range here. Pocket pairs and middle connectors make out hand trash. We have an overpair. That's it. Do not loose a big pot with a pair oop on a coordinated board. I lead for $18 and fold to a raise. C/F the river is he checks behind. Stack this guy when you have a better spot. (Cue Slash and Axel: All we need is just a little patience.)

Sam Spade

11-29-2006, 03:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
getting stacked for 200BB with AA is not due to pf play, but poor postflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Sam Spade

11-29-2006, 03:03 PM

I see nothing wrong with this line. NH, sir.

Tiki

11-29-2006, 04:20 PM

Imo you did right by betting turn, after your re-raise PF villain has to be a bit worried if he is holding QQ/JJ. By betting turn you find out what your KK is worth. If you check turn and villain fires again you just aren't going to know where you stand. NH.

Hail Eris

11-29-2006, 05:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Basically Hall, what you are saying is to raise it up pf so that a pp does not have odds to draw to a set. That is hard to do in a 100BB setting

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm saying you have to 3bet enough so they can't profitably call with the speculative hands that they raised PF. Otherwise you are playing a huge pot with a villain whose range is so wide that literally any action at all begins to scare you, as this hand illustrates.

[ QUOTE ]
Also you are defining you hand by doing it .... and finally you limit your raising range, since nit all hand can play for huge raises all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, obviously. Any 3bet narrows your range. Would you rather define your hand for the villain and offer him odds, or define your hand and not offer him odds? This is common sense and straight out of NLTAP.

I did not in fact get stacked with AA for 200BB, I tanked and folded and villain showed. But I play 50NL and I know that when a decent 50NL player wants to play for 2 stacks, he has a monster. At higher limits you will find many players who will make you fold your 1 pair hand in a huge pot over and over when it is best.

I would have raised to $8 or 9 here.

kerplunkNL

11-29-2006, 06:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, obviously. Any 3bet narrows your range. Would you rather define your hand for the villain and offer him odds, or define your hand and not offer him odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to widen you 3-bet range: reraise TT-AA, AK, AQ preflop (maybe even more). Reraising TT very big seems a bad idea. I'd rather widen my 3bet range than raising the size of my 3bet.

It sucks to give players implied odds. But most players at this level haven't even heard of implied odds. They'd be happy to call a $6 raise just as a $9 one. So you can't really narrow their range down anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
This is common sense and straight out of NLTAP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with quite a few things in NLTAP. Some advice offered don't apply to SSNL (*coughconcept#17cough*).

Well, these are just my thoughts. I don't if there's any truth in it. Feel free to disagree. /images/graemlins/smile.gif