25NL Sanity check

[Gelford]

OK, as some of you know, I just started playing cash two days ago with Donk'n'gos being my preferred playground. For those of you who are unaware of how you play SNG's, basically what you do is fold everything, so I am slightly out of my usual behavior here.


So here I am at this here 25NL table, I just sat down .. this is my third hand and I am dealt TJs on the button, I've been busy starting up tables and so I do not have a single read. I'd love comments on all streets.

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $25.85
CO: $33.50
Hero: $24.65
SB: $19.77
BB: $24.75

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG folds, CO calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $1.1</font>, 2 folds, CO calls.

Flop: 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($2.55, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">CO bets $2</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $7</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to $12</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: 6/images/graemlins/club.gif ($26.55, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">CO is all-in $20.4</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero calls all-in $11.55</font>.
Uncalled bets: $8.85 returned to CO.

River: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($49.65, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $49.65)


Results:
Final pot: $49.65

[Gravy]

Preflop, standard is 4xBB + 1BB per limper ($1.25 here obv). Thatsaid our raise size is probably fine.

Your flop raise is also fine but without a read I probably fold to the min-reraise (this is usually a hand that beats one pair). And given that you're there, the turn is an easy fold.

[1968]

flop raise is terrible.. Raise to $4 on the flop and fold the turn..
You need reads first to see if hes a donk..

[Gelford]

Yes Standard is 4xBB+1BB pr limper, but at times I tend to play active pf, and so I prefer to bet slightly less, so I usually bet pot'ish (ie. 0,85 if first in), it is still enough to stack someone if need be and I do not believe that there is a big difference in FE ... especially when you start annoying people.

With regards to minreraising flop, Amatheorem or not .. I find it awful play and only would consider doing it vs. theorem following 2+2'er who promtly would lay down AA (especially if done on turn) /images/graemlins/grin.gif
In other words what I am saying here is that unlike 2+2, most donks have a hard time laying down hands to a flop minraise, whatever their hand may be, so they will often call and then you have a decision to do on turn ... and usually when raising flop, I am not looking for a call (or am I .. either way, the minraise is not the way to go)

[1968]

IMO both raises would get the same result of folding the turn bet (all in).. The jack kicker is not enough to play that aggressive..
What was the result?..

[Gelford]

I want a few more responses before posting results ... No reason to let the fact that I got stacked or didn't get stacked influence those /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[benlj21]

the first thing that stands out is that you got your whole stack in with TPWK. One pair is not really a hand you want to play all-in for 100 BB's, with very rare exceptions. Preflop is ok, but I prefer raising if my opponent is loose or limping if he's reasonably tight. I would make the standard raise pf (4+1 etc), though I'm not sure how much it matters.

On the flop, I would call to reevaluate on the turn. You need to realize immediately that you don't want to get your whole stack in there unimproved. So if you want to raise, it should generally be for information. That requires a pretty straightforward opponent though, so I wouldn't do it to an unknown. Folding is obv out of the question, so that leaves a call.

If I called and my opponent made a big bet on the turn, greater than 1/2 pot, I'd just let it go usually. If he checked, I'd usually make a bet designed to protect my hand, get information, and not build the pot too big. 2/3 pot is a good size for this, usually.

[MadMat]

I fold to the flop 3-bet against an unknown, I don't like playing big pot here without a read on the guy as an agrro-tard.

Mat

[carnivalhobo]

fold to the 3b on the flop, but just call his donkbet.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
fold to the 3b on the flop, but just call his donkbet.

[/ QUOTE ]


And there it was, my reasoning exactly, I couldn't make sense of him calling flop and then donking turn. A made hand would in my world either shove flop or check turn.

Thoughts on the flop bet Carnivalhobo ? (Fairly standard, right ? )

[Wolfram]

I don't see why you raise this flop. Do you have a read? Will he donk with a draw? Are you willing to play for stacks with this hand? I'd try to exercise some pot control and just call and then re-evaluate the turn. AT/KT/QT/T8 is actually a huge part of a random NL50'ers range.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fold to the 3b on the flop, but just call his donkbet.

[/ QUOTE ]
And there it was, my reasoning exactly, I couldn't make sense of him calling flop and then donking turn. A made hand would in my world either shove flop or check turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
The flop donk is a bit weird from a made hand.

However, a donkey with a made hand will minraise your flop raise, because he doesn't want to lose you to a shove, and pays no attention to the pot-odds he's offering to a draw.

[Wolfram]

[ QUOTE ]
flop raise is terrible.. Raise to $4 on the flop and fold the turn..

[/ QUOTE ]
Raising to $4 is horrible. The only point in Gelfords flop raise is to (a) push a weak player of a better hand or (b) charge a draw to peel a turn. Option (c) get more value out of a worse top pair is not applicable 'cause we need a mother of a read to think that villain vill overplay a worse ten.

If you minraise, you butcher the hand in case he's drawing, 'cause you give him perfect odds to call.

[Oranzith]

ok, minraise to 4 = bad

however, i think raising in general here is foolhardy. basically all you have is a LITTLE showdown value. Was this a planned raise or spur of the moment "i bet i can push him off his goddamn donk bet" (i like that one too much)

TP of tens is a very awkward situation. I may play it passive simply because i am not comfortable with this type of hand, but i pretty much check call to the river

[reutel]

I don't like your flop raise. Any draw is already paying to peel (he bet around the pot), and you are probably not ahead if he ain't on a draw. As played you have to fold to his raise, and have to fold to his turn bet otherwise. You ain't winning here

[Gelford]

It is a 25NL donk, so I am actually putting him on a fairly wide range including a small pocket pair a random ace that did or did not catch a piece of something .. and dunno

I was perhaps too frisky ... but well my gut said he hasn't got it, I was expecting a fold on flop ... or a shove ... to which I would fold.

I must admit though that I have been playing a very high variance game the last couple of days, been in a huge amount of pot and encountering insane swings ... perhaps I'm just bored and also slightly tilted more playing for fun than money. (Finally getting out of the sng play tight tight tight or you spew fetters)

[kokiri]

With a limper already in, PF is borderline. If you're new to NL cash, limping might be better. That this might be a good idea is confirmed by the fact that you get it all in with TPWK in the face fo some strength.

I would call the flop bet rather than raise, and i would probably fold to the reraise, even though it hurts to fold to a minreraise. You've hit a hand with some showdown value, but not a strong one. Basically, once he leads into me on the flop, i'm thinking how much it is going to cost me to get to showdown. I'm not looking to build a huge pot unless I'm pretty confident the villain is crazy.

I'm a bit of a calling satation, so i might call the flop 3 bet, but even for me, turn is an instafold without reads/strong metagame cosiderations. True there are enough oddballs out there that you might be against 99 or something some of the time, but I think it looks a lot like you're up against a good T or JJ maybe and I don't really b elieve you are ahead 25% of the time here. Moreover, if you think you're pot committed by calling the flop 3 bet, then its a great bet for villain - if he's strong he wins your remaining $15, if he's weak/semibluffing, you only win the $5 bet and he shuts down.

[Gelford]

No limping is out of the question in my world, sure at a fullring table with 3 limpers already you can limp, but not here.

And yes, I disagree with NLTAP and their open limping advice

And new to NL cash ... errmm ... I haven't played it for extended period of time playing sngs instead ... but new is perhaps not quite correct /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Gelford]

Well, I've well that I gotten what I needed from this discussion, for those of you that are curious, villan had A6s missed his flushdraw/ace and I stacked him.

[kokiri]

you're not open limping, there's already one player in. Raising or limping here are both fine, and folding is clearly out of the question. If you're going to raise, though, you have to be able to get away from the hand.

[kabouter]

Villain has got trips here, I would fold this, cause what are you beating here? Someone with a pair of eights? I don't see someone on a straight draw reraising you on the flop.

I would put him on trips, I don't think he would reraise you with 2 pair but I wouldn't rule that one out either.

[Gelford]

Since the board isn't paired I assume you mean a set, when you say trips

[CaseS87]

eh i dont like the flop raise. i want to keep the pot small so i call and re-evaluate on the turn. if he puts in a big bet on the turn im probably folding, if he checks, im betting.

as played i muck to the flop 3 bet assuming im drawing close to dead most of the time. MOST 50nl players in my experience do not play draws this hard, even a monster like an oesfd.

[munkey]

I fold to the flop reraise to 12.

preflop :std

If he was drawing/unconnected with the flop he would probably call your raise then you could bet turn check behind river or check turn call a river bet.

Since he meekly bets - he says he has a made hand that beats you -without further outs I fold my TP J kicker.

RIOdds gelford /images/graemlins/grin.gif (weakly made hand/drawy board)

BTW I think villan has a PP 33+ / Spade SC here alot time.
If I had to guess 1hand I'd say he openlimped CO with 33.

(BTW I played 2 donk n gos yesterday - came 2nd in both , one I was outplayed HU vs a decentish SnG player, the other was a luckbox donk that was hard to read FR let alone HU and I stacked off with QJ vs K4o me BTN PFR on KQxr flop (M~15). Me bad. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif)

[Gelford]

Uhhh ... you talk the M talk Munkey ... no selfrespecting STT'er talks the M talk /images/graemlins/smile.gif


But cool ... you do good at sngs and I run hot at cash, none of us really knowing what we are doing /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I also have noticed that the buzzword around here is RIO, that practically didn't exist in my old SSNL day

Are you educating nits here ??? (not that there is anything wrong with that)

[munkey]

If M is ratio stack/blinds or is that Q?
LOL I'm such a tourney noob.

I'll post in the cheez thread some of the hands - I luckbox_robustoed my wayback from some Bbeats. I sucked out more than I ever do and played some hands v.bad(mainly AI blind steals and that HU one). It was fun to play more reckless for a change /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Ye eMC has started up a great series of threads of basic principles - see the essential selection for some. The most recent was the reverse implied one -so it's fresh in our minds /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Are you educating nits here ???

[/ QUOTE ]
Nah I play pretty nitty myself (preflop at least)for SH 18/10/3 my stats average out to, just can't take the ol FR out of me /images/graemlins/smile.gif
I still suck playing vs nits - I should know better, they educate me here - not that there's very many here.