The enemies mistake? (WTO sorry)

[Richas]

I was having a look at the National Coalition Against Legalized Gambling website (unfortunately Wikipedia does not mention them but Panorama gave them a platform, have fun guys).

http://www.ncalg.org/internet%20gambling.htm

Anyway in their UIGEA leaflet the last Q an A is about how the act should handle domestic legal gambling transactions. What they advocate (with their emphasis) is [ QUOTE ]
"to create a presumption in the regulations that domestic gambling businesses are legal. That way the financial institutions only need to know the country where the merchant operates"

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I really hope they do implement this way, it seems to be what the advocates of the act want. I also suspect that the WTO Lawyer will love it if they do. I especially like that they don't even seem to care if the foreign business is behaving legally, just that they are foreign.

[Richas]

I forgot to add that whilst I might be placing too much hope on the WTO this mob do see it as a real "threat" on page ii4 they talk about pressure on congress and call for a defence of state rights (WTO does not accept federal structures when the whole US signed up to the agreement).

If they take it seriously so should we.

[Uglyowl]

It will be very interesting to see how the regulations play out. I was talking with the risk management officer at the bank I work at and it is "online gambling" is not even on their radar currently so they have not gotten any word on it.

[ QUOTE ]
They were joined by groups as diverse as professional sports leagues and the NCAA,
several major financial institutions and associations, and the Fraternal Order of Police.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Fraternal Order of Police is getting a nice angry phone call. We (my wife more specifically) has donated to these guys over the past few years when they call the house.

They will be instructed to take us off their list and my wife will be instructed to find a new place to donate money if she wishes (PPA? haha).

[Jack Bando]

[ QUOTE ]
It will be very interesting to see how the regulations play out. I was talking with the risk management officer at the bank I work at and it is "online gambling" is not even on their radar currently so they have not gotten any word on it.

[ QUOTE ]
They were joined by groups as diverse as professional sports leagues and the NCAA,
several major financial institutions and associations, and the Fraternal Order of Police.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Fraternal Order of Police is getting a nice angry phone call. We (my wife more specifically) has donated to these guys over the past few years when they call the house.

They will be instructed to take us off their list and my wife will be instructed to find a new place to donate money if she wishes (PPA? haha).

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO, I think a call talking about how upset this makes you might work better than cutting ties with them.
"I heard you guys joined that org. that's anti-gambling. As someone who enjoys gambling and donates to you on somehwat of a regular basis, I'm upset about this."

Make it sound like there's a chance you'd still give them money. Of course, it's up to you, I just thin my idea is worth looking at.

[Uglyowl]

I talked with someone there and had an interesting conversation. It has been on their position list for quite some time (before the poker boom) and poker was not mainstream then. The believe today poker is on the up and up, but when they took the position alot was not.

Recently they were not actively lobbying for it and even surprised them when it passed through.

Unprovoked they offered up "If a repeal or modification were offered up they do not know if and what position they would take".

I may or may not give, although it will probably be a smaller amount on the off chance I do give..

[ChexNFX]

The National Coalition Against Legalized Gambling, god damn. Is the PPA doing ANYTHING about this? Whenever I hear of a group getting organized and actively lobbying for against a sketchy issue such as gambling, I worry. How much longer until the deadline of 270, 6 months? I wonder if they will use up the entire 6 months or it will be coming very shortly...

[The Worm]

I got thru the first few pages of the NCALG and it started to make my blood boil. Esp. the myth vs. fact part. That was the most disturbing.

[jlkrusty]

Check out these news clips NCALG references:

gambling victims have no choice but to commit crime! (http://www.ncalg.org/Library/Facts%20and%20Answers/suicides.mht)

Sure, there are some gambling problems, but there are a whole lot more problems in other things. We shouldn't make things illegal simply because a very small minority abuse something. If we did, we'd have the government regulating everything we did. On this list, which things are the most harmful?

1- Alcohol
2- Tobacco/smoking
3- Fast food
4- Processed and packaged food
5- Lack of exercise
6- Politicians
7- Parents who don't discipline their children
8- Ignorance
9- Oprah Winfrey
10- Online gambling

If we ban online gambling, then we better ban everything that ranks higher on the list.

[Richas]

[ QUOTE ]
I got thru the first few pages of the NCALG and it started to make my blood boil. Esp. the myth vs. fact part. That was the most disturbing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I loved the presentation by the "economist" whose final point was about professional gamblers contributing nothing "if everyone did this we would all starve". Well yeah, OK but a world full of jumped up economists would lack a few essentials too and if we were all in food production we'd all be homeless. An economist with no concept at all why we have specialisation and markets!

I also loved how Nevada is a hell hole, how they manage to talk about rising crime near casinos whilst ignoring that crime in all areas, including those near casinos, has fallen since about the time the casinos started to open. Instead it's fallen less in the (poor) areas near casinos and they call this rising crime! Again bankruptcies are higher near casinos, yeah I always look to rich areas to top the bankruptcy table rather than a run down deprived area targetted for regeneration...idiots.

The real laugh is that they get charitable status for their "research".

[permafrost]

[ QUOTE ]
I got thru the first few pages of the NCALG and it started to make my blood boil. Esp. the myth vs. fact part. That was the most disturbing.

[/ QUOTE ]

is this what disturbed you? (http://www.ncalg.org/Library/internet/IG%20Law%20booklet.pdf)

They do have a spin but so does our side. Looking at it objectively, what things are disturbing? What is our rebuttal?

[Richas]

[ QUOTE ]
is this what disturbed you? (http://www.ncalg.org/Library/internet/IG%20Law%20booklet.pdf)

They do have a spin but so does our side. Looking at it objectively, what things are disturbing? What is our rebuttal?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's disturbing that research can be commissioned and disseminated by a body that only wants to look at the downside and trawls for information to prove what they believe rather than do research to find out the facts.

The rebuttal is essentially the case for proper regulation that can protect the addicted, prevent children gambling, fund treatment for addicts, protect punters and fund real research. Regulation allows control to protect the gambler from fraud and force sites to monitor for problem gamblers. For example IG Index in the UK (a spread betting firm) is regulated by the FSA and to get an account you get not just the normal commercial credit check to protect them but also you have to show you have accessible cash/shares. It protects people who can't afford the open ended nature of spread bets.

The Mafia wasn't built on alcohol, it was built on illegal gambling the lending associated with it (and prostitution). Today the ban on drugs really does not work well. The ban they want on all gambling would just push punters into the hands of criminals. Even the World Series was fixed by them to fleece the punter. A regulated industry that monitors betting patterns and so prevents/catches match fixing and corruption is a good thing.

This bunch say gambling bad but what they don't show is that banned gambling is worse. You ban credit cards now, if gambling is next there will be a lender willing to take your bets .....and your legs.

[Skallagrim]

I agree wholeheartedly with Richas post above. I wanted to add one thing, however. After reviewing the "enemy's" site I noticed something that adds a fair bit to understanding their way of thinking. They say that "unless your state has authorized internet gambling it is illegal." This is absolutely backwards and shows a mindset totally at odds with centuries of anglo-american legal tradition and principles of ordered liberty. We live in a country where UNLESS SOMETHING IS SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITED IT IS LEGAL, not the other way around.

[MiltonFriedman]

"We live in a country where UNLESS SOMETHING IS SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITED IT IS LEGAL, not the other way around."

It bears repeating as a political statement, but it is not practical legal advice.

[MLSchaff]

The suicides list (http://www.ncalg.org/Library/Facts%20and%20Answers/suicides.mht) is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read.

There is not even any attempt to link most of these items to gambling. For instance:

CT - The body of 28-year-old John Diakos was found in a casino parking lot after he committed suicide by ingesting a mixture of drugs and cutting his arms.
The Day Publishing Online 9/9/00

Guess we should ban parking lots.

LAS VEGAS (AP) - A 24-year-old Utah man scaled two security barriers and jumped to his death from the observation deck of the 1,149-foot Stratosphere Tower hotel-casino late Wednesday, police said.
Las Vegas Sun 1/6/00

And tall buildings. Must ban the tall buildings.

LA - After a night of drinking at a Kenner casino Saturday night, a Ponchatoula man, 21, apparently shot himself to death in his car outside the gambling boat, police said.
Times Picayune 11/8/99

Ever consider that it might have had more to do with the drinking?!

Miss - In May 1996, Bay St. Louis, Miss., resident James Shamburger, a casino regular, hanged himself with a dog leash.

Maybe going to the casino was the one good thing that he enjoyed in life, but that wasn't enough to keep him from doing this.

Atlantic City - A bloodied body was found at the entrance to the Sands Casino Hotel parking garage just before 8 a.m. Investigators believe he fell two stories to his death but don't know much more than that.
South Jersey Publishing 7/30/00

Well it seems that parking garages are out, too. Not sure where we're going to park now. At least this one admits that investigators don't know anything about the case.

ATLANTIC CITY -- A 50-year-old Ventnor man apparently committed suicide Tuesday afternoon by jumping off the parking garage of a casino, police said.
LAS VEGAS SUN 4/5/00

Oh yeah, parking garages are definitely out.

[Skallagrim]

Sorry Milton, much as I enjoy your posts snd the work of the real MF, it is GOOD legal advice and a basic legal prinicple. The only warning being: watch out for broad phrases in laws. For Example - unless there is a specific law against it, firing your gun in your house is legal. However, if your gun is a high powered rifle and the bullet may travel to other houses, or if you live in an apartment building, you may have "reckelssly placed others in danger of bodily injury by means of a dangerous weapon," a definite crime in most states.