Why Does Religion Draw So Much Ire?

[KUJustin]

I may come to regret this post because the answers will really bug me, but I have to ask because I want to understand.

It's seems to me that it's beyond question that Christianity really riles up a significant number of atheists. While this is a civil place, you can see the hostility pretty clearly even here in this very forum.

Having been involved with a campus ministry I've also seen that the same is true in real life. Any overt sharing of a Christian message (even relatively unoffensive messages) draws venomous hate. It's a much different situation in 1-to-1 contact, but that's a whole different topic I think.


The Reason I hear the most and my thoughts:

"I hate to see people blindly following some dogma rather than using their ability to reason."

My Opinion: I don't think that very many Christians are these blind followers that they're made out to be (some indeed are). I believe I arrived at my faith through reason and dealt with many of the doubts that are expressed on this board. You can fault my reason if you'd like, but you'll have a tough time telling me it's being ignored.

My Challenge To This Reason: People ignore their reason constantly while drawing much less ire. Sunk costs baffle almost everyone. Try convincing someone they don't have to get on that flight they booked if they really don't want to go where it's headed, you'll never get through. This can be frustrating but no one ever gets angry at people for this, and certainly there aren't message boards full of people mocking those who ignore sunk costs or opportunity costs.


I know "atrocities committed in the name of God" is probably another one, though it seems so many atrocities have been committed in the name of so many things that singling out religion is unfair.

Basically religion seems to be one of the few topics that takes a simple disagreement and turns it into something more. Why do the above reasons cause so much ire with religion specifically? What other reasons are there for this anger?

[soon2bepro]

I personally do not hate theists. I don't like them (this is not to say I DISLIKE them), not because they're theists, but because they can't/won't think, so I can't possibly see them as equals. To me they're like a very smart kind of dog. (I don't like dogs other than to watch their behavior and learn, and for amusement)

My typical response to someone trying to preach on me is amusement. In fact I often like to hear them out. Especially the evangelical preachers. It's a hell of a lot of fun, plus I get to learn and think a lot about sociology, one of my hobbies.

It's also an ego booster I think. I think that I feel more powerful when comparing myself to them. (see, when I was growing up, a lot of adults were always telling me how smart I was. That made me feel good on one part, but on the other, the fact that I really was much smarter than average -combined with my lack of social skills-, made all the other kids hate me -I went to a public school and highschools so they were a little dumber than average-. Which is why I became sort of an outcast and further developed my capacity and interest for logical reasoning and philosophy)

As for other atheists, I'm not sure what draws their hatred. It's probably a combination of things. But I'll take a shot and say that the hatred is really "inside of them". If they didn't have theists to hate, they'd have to hate someone/something else. And they probably do anyways.

[David Sklansky]

How bout the fact that most Christians think that most if not all Jews and atheists are going to hell? Regardless of how they conduct their lives.

[tolbiny]

Phrases i have heard from theists that rile me up.

"gays shouldn't get married, the bible says being gay is wrong"
"I don't believe in evolution, god created everything"
"I think the world would be better if everyone was forced to pray in schools"

[arahant]

I think 'venoumous hatred' is way too strong for the vast majority of atheists. In a campus ministry, you may be more likely to see very strong reactions because:
1) You have a large population of atheists, and so more opportunity to see the outliers
2) The message is rather anti-intellectual to begin with, and you are presenting it in an educational setting
3) They're just college kids...they have things to work out about themselves, and part of doing that is expressing opinions strongly. I was certainly very strident in college about things that I don't take so seriously now.

Ignoring 'venomous hatred' though, I think you are right that there is a lot of hostility directed at christians from atheists. I'll give you the reasons I feel this hostility, in order of importance...I think they generally apply to some extent for most of us 'angry atheists'

1) (US only) Christians are increasingly mobilizing to impose their beliefs on others through politics, most disturbingly in science education, abortion rights, and gay rights, but also things like UIGEA, terry shalvo (sp?), etc...Any group that organizes to deny the rights of others is likely to be hated by people like me. If native americans somehow got enough political clout to teach animism (or whatever) and tried to exercise it, you'd see some ire towards them. However, I see christians as the driving force behind most social policies i disagree with, so they get the ire. If you think that maybe "most christians are more tolerant than Jerry Falwell", then you need to do a better job of preventing the fundamentalist, freedom-denying segment of your religion from co-opting it.

2) I like to debate things, and convince others. I am frustrated that there is a group of people impervious to logic. I AM equal opportunity here...I've had these feelings of frustration with people who believe in Atlantis, UFO abductions, etc, though I admit that those beliefs are less common, and so maybe less frustrating. I realize this frustration is personally a negative reaction, but I think it is largely human nature, and probably has positive social implications.

3)Similarly, I am frustrated at the inability of christians to connect intellectually with me on a broad range of topics. There are all sorts of interesting things in the world, for which christianity's answer is just 'god did it'. I would rather discuss biology with even the most imbecilic atheist than with someone i knew to be a creationist. I would rather discuss philosophy with an autistic atheist than a christian that just believes the answer to everything is in the bible. Because your cult has shut off a large number of people to rational discussion, my social connections are weaker than they otherwise would be. Therefore, I dislike your cult.

4) Good old fashioned xenophobia. This is actually sort of a logical outgrowth of the above.

But to be clear, I respect your RIGHT to believe whatever the hell you want.

If you want to empathize a little, think of social/cultural groups that you detest or can't understand, and imagine living in a society full of them. Nazi Germany? Communist Cuba? Most applicable would probably be China in the cultural revolution. Would you feel anger towards the ruling classes in these cases? (And no, I'm not comparing christians to these groups...yet. I do think the trend is dangerously authoritarian and anti-intellectual though).

Edit: I guess I just told you why i object to christianity, whereas your post was arguably broader ("religions"). At least in my case, it's simply the fact that it is the christians that are causing problems where I live. I'm not particularly fond of Islam, either, but because the islamic governments aren't my government, I don't have the same visceral reaction, except in the case of fundamentalist muslims, whom i never meet.

In contrast, I have much more respect for Buddhists, and not just soft western zen buddhists. Tibetan buddhism is as silly as christianity in it's beliefs, but they teach and PRACTICE peace, respect, love, tolerance, compassion, and freedom. Buddhists don't stand around haraunging women having abortions, or try to pass laws banning things that aren't buddhist...at least not to the extent that christians do in this country.

So yeah...I've ranted, but here's the Cliff Notes . If you quit trying to make others do what YOU think is right, you wouldn't be hated by nearly as many people.

[MidGe]

Religion draws ire in direct proportion to its tendency to evangelize. After all, obscurantism should be stamped out when it raises its head. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[KUJustin]

Only had a chance to skim so far, but I'm pleased to see some very sincere responses.

Also, I probably went overboard with characterizations like "venomous hatred." I certainly encountered/witnessed that but it was almost certainly from a small population of "outliers."

Keep the answers coming...

[thylacine]

Just consider the numerous obvious analogies between Christian Supremacists and White Supremacists.

[kurto]

There's plenty of reasons.
1) People trying to convert you. Its a little offensive. And I deal with this regularly. My brother is a born again and he's constantly telling me how he wants to set me straight because he's bothered that I'm going to burn in hell.
2) Religious people petition the government to regulate others based on their religion
3) various evils of religion - for instance, the current war in the middle east
4) the attacks on scientific teaching, products, etc. when they threaten the teachings/beliefs/morals of the faithful.
5) And finally, because it is unreasonable. I appreciate that you believe you came to your faith by reason. But "Faith" by its nature is unreasonable. I have yet to find a single person make a 'reasonable' argument for their faith. At least Bunny (as opposed to txag) admits that his faith is in conflict with his reason... (Its this lack of reason that led my brother, over thanksgiving, to actually DEFEND slavery and rape in the Bible with the fallback, "God must have his reasons.")

[tomdemaine]

[ QUOTE ]
Religion draws ire in direct proportion to its tendency to evangelize. After all, obscurantism should be stamped out when it raises its head. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Noone's going around constantly debunking Thor or the tooth fairy or any other mythical creatures.

[revots33]

I find the fact that they seem obsessively concerned with stopping homosexual sex, contraception, and masturbation to be very humorous.

[thylacine]

[ QUOTE ]
I find the fact that they seem obsessively concerned with stopping homosexual sex, contraception, and masturbation to be very humorous.

[/ QUOTE ]

.. especially when they are engaging in it at the same time.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
My Opinion: I don't think that very many Christians are these blind followers that they're made out to be (some indeed are). I believe I arrived at my faith through reason and dealt with many of the doubts that are expressed on this board. You can fault my reason if you'd like, but you'll have a tough time telling me it's being ignored.

[/ QUOTE ]

see above.

At least that's the underlying issue. Clear and Present though is the threat posed by religious cults setting government policy, directly or indirectly depending on your continent.

luckyme

[HeavilyArmed]

There's active anti-religious bias in a large fraction of American media. And a Happy Holidays to you too. ACLU fighting every cross on every municipal icon including Los Cruces, NM!?!?! It's a long list.

But mostly I think that every self-described atheist has a tiny lingering doubt and won't quite knuckle under to Pascal's proposition. That increases their need to deny any merit to the other side.

[cambraceres]

[ QUOTE ]
I find the fact that they seem obsessively concerned with stopping homosexual sex, contraception, and masturbation to be very humorous.

[/ QUOTE ]

These novelties do seem funny, but the system within which they operate has the abilty to be nothing less than monstrous. Do not underestimate the power of religious conviction on even a medium scale.

Cam

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
and won't quite knuckle under to Pascal's proposition.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, certainly not until after the lobotomy. Pascal's wager is trivial if the lobes are intact.

luckyme

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
But mostly I think that every self-described atheist has a tiny lingering doubt and won't quite knuckle under to Pascal's proposition. That increases their need to deny any merit to the other side.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're right...I'll admit, I must bow down to pascal's wager and believe...

could you help me out with this...

which god should I believe in...how do I calculate the probabilities of a typical gods' existence, as well as unknown gods' existence, and find out exactly what I have to do get within their good graces, and figure out what will happen if I believe any other specific thing, and place values to those???

and finally, could you recommend a good brainwashing clinic that help me make even god believe that I am sincere?

respectfully submitted,

Chris

[thylacine]

HeavilyArmed said:[ QUOTE ]

But mostly I think that every self-described atheist has a tiny lingering doubt and won't quite knuckle under to Pascal's proposition. That increases their need to deny any merit to the other side.

[/ QUOTE ]

You live in a world of make-believe. The "atheists" you describe are part of your make-believe world.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
I would rather discuss biology with even the most imbecilic atheist than with someone i knew to be a creationist. I would rather discuss philosophy with an autistic atheist than a christian that just believes the answer to everything is in the bible. Because your cult has shut off a large number of people to rational discussion, ...

[/ QUOTE ]

One good things about internet forums is you find out that you're not off on a lone tangent. There are several of my favorite topics that I can't discuss with personality cult theists, psychology, philosophy, cosmology, and the more interesting parts ( to me) of biology.

Some eastern 'religions' allow a greater depth of inquiry before you bump into the wall and my best discussions have been with those types. You do hit the wall eventually but you can cover a lot more interesting ground before you do.

luckyme

[HeavilyArmed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But mostly I think that every self-described atheist has a tiny lingering doubt and won't quite knuckle under to Pascal's proposition. That increases their need to deny any merit to the other side.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're right...I'll admit, I must bow down to pascal's wager and believe...

could you help me out with this...

which god should I believe in...how do I calculate the probabilities of a typical gods' existence, as well as unknown gods' existence, and find out exactly what I have to do get within their good graces, and figure out what will happen if I believe any other specific thing, and place values to those???

and finally, could you recommend a good brainwashing clinic that help me make even god believe that I am sincere?

respectfully submitted,

Chris

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take your post as confirmation of my theory that many atheists need to strengthen their position (and doubt) by attacking the religious, of which I am not one.

[HeavilyArmed]

[ QUOTE ]
HeavilyArmed said:[ QUOTE ]

But mostly I think that every self-described atheist has a tiny lingering doubt and won't quite knuckle under to Pascal's proposition. That increases their need to deny any merit to the other side.

[/ QUOTE ]

You live in a world of make-believe. The "atheists" you describe are part of your make-believe world.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be absolutely sure of any unprovable proposition is not the mark of genius.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
To be absolutely sure of any unprovable proposition is not the mark of genius.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Blue Moon Yields No Shadow.

luckyme

[Quanah Parker]

I'm a Christian and Christians piss me off.

The reason is that so many Christians won't mind their own business. Too many Christians seem to feel Gawd almighty has told them to stick their righteous little noses into everyone else's affairs.

I'm a Christian that prefers the company of non-believers, because they're often more Christian than the Chirstians.

[madnak]

I've only skimmed the responses, and arahant covered many of mine, but as someone with a genuine loathing toward the religious, I thought I'd give my thoughts.

First, to get it out of the way, some of my issues are personal. I'm a very critical person, and I have flares of anger, but grudges aren't my thing. My vehemence is typically a temporary effect of my anger in most things, but where religion is concerned it's much deeper. I've gone into my specific experiences with religion before, and the responses I got from theists weren't exactly helpful, so I won't do it again.

Next, hell and biblical atrocities. These really piss me off. If I read any book with a character who commits rape, genocide, murder, etc and is glorified, I will get angry. Even if it's fiction, it pisses me off. Sometimes even when it's all in fun - Chicago sometimes gets me raging, for example. But nothing compares to the Old Testament of the Bible. The specific events and passages that boil my blood aren't relevant, and this isn't the thread to argue about them. Suffice it to say, according to my interpretation the God of the OT is possibly the most horrible villain ever invented - and his glorification horrifies me. When I see a Christian, I think of stonings for gathering sticks, women taken as plunder, children ripped apart by bears for not respecting their elders, plagues ravaging nations... And I think, "these are the things this person supports." I understand that may not even be the case sometimes, but just the thought is enough to piss me off.

I'm also the type who hates inconsistency, even in stories. Yes, I'm the nit who finds that sci-fi movie distasteful because "that couldn't really happen," who winces sometimes even at movies he loves because they include errors, and who stamps up and down and rants because that ending was so unrealistic. Typically I can be placated to some degree when people acknowledge the contradictions I've found, but I think it's inherent to some degree. I am a royal nit, at least internally. Now, take the Bible - it makes the old Bond movies look like painstaking realism. Contradictions left and right, of every variety imaginable, and moreover, people constantly claim that there are no contradictions in the book. That only amplifies my frustration.

Argument - it seems like, 90% of the time, when someone slips away or refuses to use logic to discuss something or won't admit the truth of even a basic syllogism, it's a Christian. And 80% of the time, the worst abusers of reason are also Christian (in my experience). I often feel, when discussing things with Christians, as though I'm playing chess with a toddler. Not because they're incompetent like toddlers, but because, like toddlers, whenever I "capture a piece" they immediately try to change the rules. I was once playing with, I believe it was one of my young cousins, and they started moving the pawns around as if they were queens. Yeah, I suppose I'm a bit anal about these things, but it pissed me off.

Then there's the way Christianity is infused in the culture I live in - constant references to God, constant assumptions that I believe in God. And if someone learns otherwise, sometimes they get nasty. And then there are the people who stand in the subway preaching - mostly New York is better than Utah, but those guys... Well, just imagine if an atheist stood on a street corner yelling at the top of his lungs how theists are idiots.

Did I mention hell? I did, but I'll do it again. Hell sucks.

Finally, the alienation breeds resentment. I can't connect with most people, and whether or not it's true, my perception is that religion is linked to that. Also it can have concrete effects - it's impossible to talk about certain subjects without bringing God up, and sometimes people take God so personally that it's impossible to know them as a person without delving into their religious beliefs. And obviously it's absolutely impossible to relate to such people, regardless of other conditions.

Finally, the proselytization. The constant attempts to make me Christian, the condescension in various forms, ugh. If Christians would stay the [censored] away from me, like those of some other religions, that would make things much easier. But far from it - people actually make laws based on Christianity, make monuments to Christianity, use Christianity in political speeches, in advertisement, it goes on and on. There's no escape from it. And given that I consider it a horrible and disgusting religion, being surrounded by it can make me feel trapped or suffocated.

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But mostly I think that every self-described atheist has a tiny lingering doubt and won't quite knuckle under to Pascal's proposition. That increases their need to deny any merit to the other side.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're right...I'll admit, I must bow down to pascal's wager and believe...

could you help me out with this...

which god should I believe in...how do I calculate the probabilities of a typical gods' existence, as well as unknown gods' existence, and find out exactly what I have to do get within their good graces, and figure out what will happen if I believe any other specific thing, and place values to those???

and finally, could you recommend a good brainwashing clinic that help me make even god believe that I am sincere?

respectfully submitted,

Chris

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take your post as confirmation of my theory that many atheists need to strengthen their position (and doubt) by attacking the religious, of which I am not one.

[/ QUOTE ]

how did I attack the religious??

I attacked your comment about pascal's wager because it was moronic.

I should add that your comment is confirmation that you subscribe to the very thing you are accusing atheists of.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
There's active anti-religious bias in a large fraction of American media. And a Happy Holidays to you too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say the opposite.

[ QUOTE ]
ACLU fighting every cross on every municipal icon including Los Cruces, NM!?!?! It's a long list.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's not an anti-religous bias. That's called trying to honor the law.

[ QUOTE ]
But mostly I think that every self-described atheist has a tiny lingering doubt and won't quite knuckle under to Pascal's proposition. That increases their need to deny any merit to the other side.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say once again you have it backwards.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But mostly I think that every self-described atheist has a tiny lingering doubt and won't quite knuckle under to Pascal's proposition. That increases their need to deny any merit to the other side.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say once again you have it backwards.

[/ QUOTE ]

anyone else think it goes both ways?

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
anyone else think it goes both ways?

[/ QUOTE ]

I should say that I'm too am sure it goes both ways. Though I tend to think Atheists tend, by nature, to be more open to other possibilities. Science is always looking for the best explanation for the Universe. Where, for example, my brother the born again said to me this week, he doesn't need to read other theories because "when you know that 1+1=2 you don't have to read any other theories."

I don't think most atheists profess to know all the answers. Science is often uncertain by its nature. Where the religious state that there faith is the end all be all regardless of any evidence to the contrary.

[fnord_too]

I didn't read the responses to the thread, and I only skimmed the OP, but the fact that your title sais "religion" and your post is clearly about christianity is a pretty good example of why it draws flack from some people.

To spell out my point, a lot of people think religious types are bigoted, or at least predjiduced against anyone not their religion. Your title speaks to all religion yet your post speaks to only one, suggesting that you don't consider other religions valid. There can be an inferred hubris, even if it is not implied, that rubs people of differing beliefs the wrong way.

Personally, I look at individuals, not groups. It happens that quite a few people who consider themselves religious (that I have personal experience with) are just hypocritical. There are others who are incredibly religous who are not, but they are vastly outnumbered in my experience.

Additionally, historically (including present history) religions try to opress others that have different beliefs. You may say that stopping on line gambling and outlawing pot, etc. have nothing to do with christianity until you are blue in the face, for instance, but the fact is that christian organizations in the US are pushing these agendas, and these agenda's are relatively benigh in comparison to others that have been and are being pushed. In short, religion is often a vehicle for some pretty bad stuff, that usually even goes against the tenets of the religion. (Again, hypocrisy evokes a lot of emotion).

The thinking and arguing rationally bit is sort of specious, because there are plenty of stupid athiests too who cannot form a decent argument, and plenty of believers in all sorts of things who can. Again, for individuals it is all personal. For organizations, it is what the organizations do. (Deeming birth control a sin and preaching that to impoverished, over populated nations for instance is pretty offensive to me, and preaching positive things too does not make it less offensive).

Wow, that was a lot more exposition than I meant to write.

[TomCollins]

It's not so much I dislike Christians as I dislike morons.

[benjdm]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do the above reasons cause so much ire with religion specifically? What other reasons are there for this anger?

[/ QUOTE ]
Decisions about what to do are based on a person's belief about what is, probable consequences from possible actions, and what results are desirable.

For deriving an accurate picture of what is we start with our perceptions. Arriving at accurate conclusions that consistently explain those perceptions had been one long history of failure until we admitted a fundamental ignorance about reality. Proposed explanations can make perfect sense to us; they can fit most of our previous observations; nevertheless, they are still quite likely to be incorrect when rigorously tested. The only way we have learned is by being rigorous about our explanations and strictly testing them to falsify the incorrect ones and improve upon them. This very simple concept is the modern scientific method, and anything that influences the observable universe is subject to it.

None of what the major religions claim as reality - their claims about what is - are a result of this systematic observation and testing of ideas. They are a result of less reliable methods. This can easily be observed; few accept knowledge based on somebody else's claim of faith or personal revelation. So in this aspect of decision making, many religious ideas do great harm by claiming wholly unjustified (and many times wholly false) ideas with great confidence. For example, the ideas:

1. You must be a good Christian to go to Heaven and enjoy eternal bliss; others may endure eternal damnation

2. There is an age of accountability; children who die before reaching it will go to Heaven

lead to the quite rational decision that you should baptise children and then murder them. A short, finite life on Earth is immaterial compared to eternity in heaven or hell. Andrea Yates made this decision. Europeans in the Americas kidnapped children, baptised them, and murdered them also. Inaccurate pictures of what is always have costs in the long run, and when you combine inaccurate ideas with great faith / confidence, it is reliably disastrous.

For the second aspect, probable consequences of possible actions, major religions also cause great harm. They tell you that if you pray to your invisible friend he will help you - lessening your emphasis on direct influence or action. If random bad things happen to you, it could be your fault because your invisible friend judged you badly - it is your fault your child was born with a birth defect. Your perceived responsibility for what happens gets smeared out; lessened on the things which you do have influence over and strengthened on the things which you do not.

Finally, on what results are desirable, religion can often cause the greatest harm. Desirable or undesirable results are framed in relation to the judgement of the invisible friend; they can be, and often are, entirely divorced from valuing human health or happiness. For example: It is bad to engage in homosexual sex, because God is reported to have said so several thousand years ago. Therefore, Ted Haggard preached against it and believed it wrong even though he is homosexual himself. It takes a great deal of mind-fv[king to convince someone they should preach bigotry and persecution against themselves for being abominations. It is bad to preach of other Gods or lead Christians astray; therefore we must slaughter all those who do such things on the order of our omnipotent invisible friend who can't do it himself. When either Christianity or Islam has had temporal power, they have not failed to act on such divine commands. If Christianity regained temporal power it would act on these commands (Deuteronomy 13 and 17, I think) again.

That should be a good start.

[txag007]

There is a reason we believe that, and it isn't because we hate you.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a reason we believe that

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems like an oxymoron to me! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[chezlaw]

I've no problem with religous people in general but dislike two things:

the dishonesty of many evangalists who seem to think its fine to lie for the cause.

belief in an odious god which tend to reflect the odiousness of the believer.

chez

[theblackkeys]

[ QUOTE ]

2) All sorts of people petition the government to regulate others based on their beliefs, religious or otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP. So what's your point?

[ QUOTE ]
3) various evils of religion - for instance, the current war in the middle east


[/ QUOTE ]
I suspect you're attacking Islam here, if not please tell me the religious aspect of the war the US started. Is there something in their book that tells them to go to war? To terrorize innocent people? The world is FULL of evil/greedy/power-hungry people, picking out those who are evil AND religious isn't really fair. We can all agree that there are religious leaders who are evil. I think these conflicts are more about territoriality anyways.

[Lestat]

There's something very irritating about standing next to a white wall and having a guy insist to you that it's brown.

[ChrisV]

Hi KUJustin,

[ QUOTE ]
There's something very irritating about standing next to a white wall and having a guy insist to you that it's brown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the best response so far. In the majority of cases (with some exceptions like gay rights advocates and so on) what you are witnessing is not "venomous hate" but a mixture of frustration and contempt.

There's a kind of narcissism in a lot of Christians - a belief that their subjective experiences are more meaningful than everyone else's.

Take a guy I saw in the good Australian documentary God On My Side (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0891308/) recently. He was present at the Texas City Disaster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_Disaster) 50+ years ago. After the disaster, he volunteered to help identify bodies. His city has just been flattened by an unimaginable disaster, and he is surrounded by the mutilated and burnt remains of his friends and colleagues, with the stench of death everywhere.

Now, after three days doing this nonstop, the bodies of his friends began to talk to him. They asked him why he'd never talked to them about Jesus. He felt an immense guilt descend on him. He was a bit vague about it, but the implication to me was that his friends were in Hell, having not accepted Jesus. He fell to his knees and begged Jesus to lift the guilt from him, promising to spend his life preaching.

Now, what we have here is quite obviously a psychotic break brought on by post-traumatic stress. Countless people around the world - Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, atheists - have had virtually identical things happen to them. But is that the conclusion of this guy? No, as he made clear to the interviewer, he didn't even consider for a second that he might be hallucinating (although the doctor present told him he was, obviously). It's God talking to him, because he's special. Other people who have psychotic hallucinations are just crazy, but when it happens to him it's him and the Almighty having a little chat. Given that no Christian can present a shred of objective evidence in support of their faith, it's irritating to be lectured about the nature of reality by someone clearly so clueless about the unreliability of subjective experience.

Then there's the insanity of the core beliefs. I'll just be brief about this since it's been done to death, but if, in a world unaware of Christianity, someone showed up at the local mental hospital spouting the essentials of the Christian doctrine (virgin birth, walking on water, water into wine, resurrection etc) they'd probably be locked up. Just because a lot of people believe it doesn't make it any less insane. I've never seen anyone resurrected, or water changed into wine, and neither has anyone else, and I'm not going to believe it happened because a 2000 year old piece of paper says so. If you think you can arrive at those beliefs by the application of reason then you're kidding yourself, plain and simple.

Finally, there's the willingness to accept moral outrages as long as God says it's right. I'm not talking about religious wars and torture and so forth, although lord knows I could talk about that at length. But for instance, many Christians believe that sinners will be tortured for eternity in the fires of hell, and yet have no problem giving "mercy" as one of the qualities of the sadistic monster responsible. I would not sentence anyone to eternal torture for any crime and I am not a man of infinite mercy. But God says it's OK to torture even quite minor criminals for the rest of Time, so it must be all right. I find this kind of thinking, if you can call it that, both contemptible and angering.

Phew. Tell you what I really think, right? /images/graemlins/smile.gif Hope some of that made some sense to you.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
There's something very irritating about standing next to a white wall and having a guy insist to you that it's brown.

[/ QUOTE ]

bingo


[ QUOTE ]
There's a kind of narcissism in a lot of Christians - a belief that their subjective experiences are more meaningful than everyone else's.

[/ QUOTE ]

bingo again

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find the fact that they seem obsessively concerned with stopping homosexual sex, contraception, and masturbation to be very humorous.

[/ QUOTE ]

These novelties do seem funny, but the system within which they operate has the abilty to be nothing less than monstrous. Do not underestimate the power of religious conviction on even a medium scale.

Cam

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you but it I still find it humorous that an institution proposing to represent the all-powerful creator of the universe would concern itself with such trivialities. It's like, "Worship our god, who created the entire universe, every galaxy, every star, every supernova, every living thing, and who can promise you everlasting life and save you from eternal torment in hell. And by the way - don't masturbate!"

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
FYP. So what's your point?

[/ QUOTE ]

For one: Seperation of Church and State. More importantly, our country shouldn't be run by the superstitious beliefs of people over 2000 years ago.

[ QUOTE ]
I suspect you're attacking Islam here

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly. As well as Christians. There are Christians in the US rejoicing at the idea of the war in the US that will bring on Revelations.

You may recall Bush also said his God directed his actions.

[ QUOTE ]
The world is FULL of evil/greedy/power-hungry people, picking out those who are evil AND religious isn't really fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're not picking on evil and religious. The thread is about the ire towards religion. So we're listing reasons.

That's not to say that religion is the cause of every war. But look at its history and religion is the cause of much of it.

[theblackkeys]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FYP. So what's your point?

[/ QUOTE ]

For one: Seperation of Church and State. More importantly, our country shouldn't be run by the superstitious beliefs of people over 2000 years ago.


[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that the issues like religious symbols on government buildings, forcing kids to take a pledge to our country "under god", and any other religious association with government should be eliminated. I don't understand why christians fight this. It's silly.

There are plenty of issues that are influenced by religion yet do not establish or endorse a religion, nor violate the constitution.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I suspect you're attacking Islam here

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly. As well as Christians. There are Christians in the US rejoicing at the idea of the war in the US that will bring on Revelations.

You may recall Bush also said his God directed his actions.

[/ QUOTE ]
Those people are stupid and very obviously crazy.

Also, people often use religion for evil purposes. I am not denying this. I would also question how he knows god wanted him to do that.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The world is FULL of evil/greedy/power-hungry people, picking out those who are evil AND religious isn't really fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're not picking on evil and religious. The thread is about the ire towards religion. So we're listing reasons.

That's not to say that religion is the cause of every war. But look at its history and religion is the cause of much of it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I realized that it is more of a question about organized religion after I made my previous post.

I think territoriality and the fight over scarce resources is the true source of most wars, even when god is invoked as a justification.

[Skidoo]

[ QUOTE ]
There's something very irritating about standing next to a white wall and having a guy insist to you that it's brown.

[/ QUOTE ]

The brown-wall guy said something similar.

[thylacine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's something very irritating about standing next to a white wall and having a guy insist to you that it's brown.

[/ QUOTE ]

The brown-wall guy said something similar.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine. But the wall is white.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
There are plenty of issues that are influenced by religion yet do not establish or endorse a religion, nor violate the constitution.


[/ QUOTE ]

True. When I look at issues like people trying to inhibit the lives of gay adults, preventing the distribution of helpful medical info/technology (ie- birth control, innoculations against STDs in children, etc) because they don't want people having sex, etc. -- the finger gets pointed at religion. (this is US based) If we want to look at the extremes of Islam we have the laws that oppress women, capital punishment for all sorts of 'religious' transgressions, etc.

[ QUOTE ]
Certainly. As well as Christians. There are Christians in the US rejoicing at the idea of the war in the US that will bring on Revelations.

You may recall Bush also said his God directed his actions.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Those people are stupid and very obviously crazy.


[/ QUOTE ]

Stupid and crazy, yes. But they are larger then people realize and they are influential in our society (and growing).

[ QUOTE ]
Also, people often use religion for evil purposes. I am not denying this. I would also question how he knows god wanted him to do that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe George Bush said God talks to him.

Regarding Religion used for Evil Means- I agree wholeheartedly. I do not deny that there are merits to religion. I think of it as a tool. In some cases it does good. But the effects of its abuse are collossal. (war, sexism, manipulation, etc.)

[ QUOTE ]
I think territoriality and the fight over scarce resources is the true source of most wars, even when god is invoked as a justification.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may be right. I'm certain there's usually a combination of factors. But its religion that allows those who push for war to motivate their masses and demonize their opponents (we're Good, They're evil... 'with God on our side'.... "Praise the lord and pass the ammunition"). In our country, IMO, its used as a political tool in the same way. (I still remember in the last election that the GOP sent out flyers in 2 states to their voters claiming if the Democrats (ie evil godless liberals) won they would ban the Bible. -- to me this shows not only that the GOP thinks so little of the intellect of their constituents that they believe this would work (the scarier question is... did they buy it?) but also how Religion is a tool of manipulation.)

Enough of my rant.

[oneeye13]

because it's followers vote

[theblackkeys]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are plenty of issues that are influenced by religion yet do not establish or endorse a religion, nor violate the constitution.


[/ QUOTE ]

True. When I look at issues like people trying to inhibit the lives of gay adults, preventing the distribution of helpful medical info/technology (ie- birth control, innoculations against STDs in children, etc) because they don't want people having sex, etc. -- the finger gets pointed at religion. (this is US based) If we want to look at the extremes of Islam we have the laws that oppress women, capital punishment for all sorts of 'religious' transgressions, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
The US part of your argument is not a violation of separation of church and state. That's what I was trying to get at. It seems as if we're in agreement.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, people often use religion for evil purposes. I am not denying this. I would also question how he knows god wanted him to do that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe George Bush said God talks to him.

Regarding Religion used for Evil Means- I agree wholeheartedly. I do not deny that there are merits to religion. I think of it as a tool. In some cases it does good. But the effects of its abuse are collossal. (war, sexism, manipulation, etc.)

[/ QUOTE ]
George Bush could be the devil in disguise and he could say the exact same thing. You see what I'm getting at? Don't take anyone's word for it when they say God told them to do something. Look at their actions and the results.

[vhawk01]

Dont look at their actions and results either, since we cannot know the mind of God. Oops, sounds like we got a conundrum

[theblackkeys]

[ QUOTE ]
Dont look at their actions and results either, since we cannot know the mind of God. Oops, sounds like we got a conundrum

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. I'm saying that you can find out who someone is not by what they say, but what they do.

EDIT: I guess my previous post is a little ambiguous. I'm not saying that you can find out whether god told them to do something by their actions and the results.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dont look at their actions and results either, since we cannot know the mind of God. Oops, sounds like we got a conundrum

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. I'm saying that you can find out who someone is not by what they say, but what they do.

EDIT: I guess my previous post is a little ambiguous. I'm not saying that you can find out whether god told them to do something by their actions and the results.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, I agree with the first part, it was the part mentioned in the edit I was referring to earlier. There is no reason to assume that someone killing puppies ISNT told to do so by god, and the person saving orphans ISNT doing the bidding of the devil, though. God works in mysterious ways.

[siegfriedandroy]

something also irritating about an a*shole like yourself falsely criticizing me b/c you're not bright. but whatever, you will always fancy yourself intelligent, despite reality.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
George Bush could be the devil in disguise and he could say the exact same thing. You see what I'm getting at? Don't take anyone's word for it when they say God told them to do something. Look at their actions and the results.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm more concerned that because of religion a lot of people take him seriously instead of laughing uncontrollably or tossing him in a nuthouse.

It is my impression that because Bush wears his religion on his shoulder (or at least pretends to) the religious of the US immediately endorse and support him regardless of his skills, plans, etc.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
something also irritating about an a*shole like yourself falsely criticizing me b/c you're not bright. but whatever, you will always fancy yourself intelligent, despite reality.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this another siegfried drunken reaction? I hate to think this is his sober response.

[Hopey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
something also irritating about an a*shole like yourself falsely criticizing me b/c you're not bright. but whatever, you will always fancy yourself intelligent, despite reality.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this another siegfried drunken reaction? I hate to think this is his sober response.

[/ QUOTE ]

Somebody needs to tell Siegfried that alcoholism makes baby Jesus cry.

[samsonite2100]

KUJustin--I appreciate the spirit in which you started this thread. It seems like you're really interested in people's opinions on this. I'll offer one more reason why a lot of atheists seem to be so vehemently anti-Christianity.

We're in a tiny minority on a subject that, in this era of advanced scientific knowledge, it's totally counter-intuitive that we'd be in the minority about. Imagine for a moment that you lived in a country in which 95% of the population believed that, say, there was an invisible unicorn that runs around spearing people, and that's why people die, or are chosen to get diseases that kill them, etc. Of course, no one's ever seen the unicorn (he's invisible), and you rightfully feel that the burden of proof would be on the people claiming the unicorn exists, but most people in your country not only believe in him--they worship him. They wear necklaces with little unicorn pendants and pray to him. And your country's pledge of allegiance and currency invoke the unicorn by name, asserting his power over you. Not only all those things, but the Unicorn Believers think people who don't believe in the Unicorn are fundamentally flawed individuals who are as fit for public office as your average pedophile.

Do you see where I'm going with this? Suspending your own personal belief system for a moment, can you get a sense of how overwhelmingly frustrating being an atheist in America might be?

[agent_fish]

My frustration comes from the fact that I am looked down upon by Christians for my beliefs. BTW, I live in the rural midwest.

Also, a lot of American public policy is formed based on these fallacious fairy tales.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
KUJustin--I appreciate the spirit in which you started this thread. It seems like you're really interested in people's opinions on this. I'll offer one more reason why a lot of atheists seem to be so vehemently anti-Christianity.

We're in a tiny minority on a subject that, in this era of advanced scientific knowledge, it's totally counter-intuitive that we'd be in the minority about. Imagine for a moment that you lived in a country in which 95% of the population believed that, say, there was an invisible unicorn that runs around spearing people, and that's why people die, or are chosen to get diseases that kill them, etc. Of course, no one's ever seen the unicorn (he's invisible), and you rightfully feel that the burden of proof would be on the people claiming the unicorn exists, but most people in your country not only believe in him--they worship him. They wear necklaces with little unicorn pendants and pray to him. And your country's pledge of allegiance and currency invoke the unicorn by name, asserting his power over you. Not only all those things, but the Unicorn Believers think people who don't believe in the Unicorn are fundamentally flawed individuals who are as fit for public office as your average pedophile.

Do you see where I'm going with this? Suspending your own personal belief system for a moment, can you get a sense of how overwhelmingly frustrating being an atheist in America might be?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you can expand on that... the unicorn believers, when polled, reveal that they believe you are completely untrustworthy. Even more so then the neighboring town who doesn't believe in invisible unicorns but do believe in leprauchans.

Furthermore, they believe you have no moral compass... after all, without unicorns to guide your way, you must be evil.

The Unicorn worshippers want to engage you to turn the other cheek. After all, they're right and you're going to be tortured for ever for not recognizing the obvious truth of the Unicorns. When it is learned that you don't 'see' the invisible unicorns they are appalled and angry. You're the last person who could ever marry their children... after all, you don't believe.

[samsonite2100]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you can expand on that... the unicorn believers, when polled, reveal that they believe you are completely untrustworthy. Even more so then the neighboring town who doesn't believe in invisible unicorns but do believe in leprauchans.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and to expand even further, when polled, the Unicornists trust the Leprechaunists more than you, even though a faction of the Leprechaunists have effectively declared war on the country where you and the Unicornists live. That's how little respect or trust the Unicornists have for you.

And even though Non-Unicornists are, on average, more highly educated and less prone to criminality than Unicornists (or for that matter, Leprechaunists, Pixieists, or Bigfootists), a Non-Unicornist has exactly zero chance of holding a public office more important than dog catcher.

[theblackkeys]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
George Bush could be the devil in disguise and he could say the exact same thing. You see what I'm getting at? Don't take anyone's word for it when they say God told them to do something. Look at their actions and the results.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm more concerned that because of religion a lot of people take him seriously instead of laughing uncontrollably or tossing him in a nuthouse.

It is my impression that because Bush wears his religion on his shoulder (or at least pretends to) the religious of the US immediately endorse and support him regardless of his skills, plans, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
People take Bush seriously for many different reasons, religious belief happens to be one of them.

I don't think it's fair to say that christians just blindly follow some political leader because he is christian. It's not very hard to see that he is ruled mostly by politics and not his faith or belief.

[vhawk01]

I dont think its what he is ruled by, so much as what he rules by.

[MaxWeiss]

First off, look at Samsonite2100's post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=8248513&page=2&vc=1) and the few below it; they illustrate one of the prominent problems.

But my biggest problem and what heats me up is that it is regarded as acceptable and OK. If you pester somebody later about their "sunk cost" with regards to the plane flight, if they are in a decent mood, they will likely admit that they just don't like the idea of wasting the money or something else which relates to an emotional response, not reason.

Faithists (yes, I'm officially coining that term) will try and tell you that their belief is OK, and based on reason, and on and on and on. Most go so far as to claim it is TRUE. Without evidence. Without just cause for belief.

It's not just that they are being stupid--most people are; I am in many other areas. It's that they are pushing that onto other people, and/or also claiming some kind of authority on knowledge and truth. They KNOW it's the TRUTH because god told them, or because it's in the book, or because zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.... and so forth.

All that aside, I get bothered by faithists because they let it leak into all areas of life and politics. (This is of course a necessity of faith--there cannot be a separation of church and state if you REALLY believe you have claim on ABSOLUTE morality.) When somebody holds an opinion about morals based on some kind of faith and not based on the ability to affect happiness and suffering in another conscious entity, that's irks the bleeping BLEEP out of me. That's my big reason, but the others are up there too. Then on top of that, to quote oneeye13

[ QUOTE ]
because it's followers vote.

[/ QUOTE ]

[theblackkeys]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think its what he is ruled by, so much as what he rules by.

[/ QUOTE ]
Please clarify. This could mean several things, I don't want to guess and turn it into a strawman.

[bluesbassman]

This quote by Steven Weinberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Weinberg) sums up pretty well why religion justifiably draws ire from a rational, moral person:

“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.”

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont think its what he is ruled by, so much as what he rules by.

[/ QUOTE ]
Please clarify. This could mean several things, I don't want to guess and turn it into a strawman.

[/ QUOTE ]

That I agree he is basically ruled by politics and not his belief, but that he USES his belief as a tool for ruling. Its how he garners support. God doesnt really speak to him, but if the votes think He does then (a certain percentage of them) basically have to accept whatever he says. Rulers figured this out a LONG time ago.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
People take Bush seriously for many different reasons, religious belief happens to be one of them.

I don't think it's fair to say that christians just blindly follow some political leader because he is christian. It's not very hard to see that he is ruled mostly by politics and not his faith or belief.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying all Christians. But there are a significant amount of Christians who voted for him because he wore his religion on his sleeve. (they're a bit angry with him now, I understand)

I remember after the last election. They interviewed a woman who said something like, "I'm really glad Bush won. I voted for him because he doesn't hide the fact that he prays."

Its 'these' Christians in particular who I'm referring to. The kind that were wailing and crying in Tennessee (got my state right) when they were removing the ten commandments... "Don't take my God....(long piercing wail)... don't take my God."

[siegfriedandroy]

why would you hate to think tohat? who gives a dam what i think drunk or sober? most will ...[censored] my cousin called sorry kurt. had something brilliant to say, too! peace

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
why would you hate to think tohat? who gives a dam what i think drunk or sober?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cause I always have hope that people are smarter and more decent then they may be. If your response could be excused by drunkeness then we could hope that there's a better side of you. Don't be offended because I hold out hope that you're perhaps better then one might guess based on your last response.

Re: Who cares? Anyone who regularly posts here cares somewhat about others here or they wouldn't post. It may not be a 'huge' care, but we do bother to respond to each other so we all care a little bit.

And Peace to you too!

[fluorescenthippo]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi KUJustin,

[ QUOTE ]
There's something very irritating about standing next to a white wall and having a guy insist to you that it's brown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the best response so far. In the majority of cases (with some exceptions like gay rights advocates and so on) what you are witnessing is not "venomous hate" but a mixture of frustration and contempt.

There's a kind of narcissism in a lot of Christians - a belief that their subjective experiences are more meaningful than everyone else's.

Take a guy I saw in the good Australian documentary God On My Side (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0891308/) recently. He was present at the Texas City Disaster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_Disaster) 50+ years ago. After the disaster, he volunteered to help identify bodies. His city has just been flattened by an unimaginable disaster, and he is surrounded by the mutilated and burnt remains of his friends and colleagues, with the stench of death everywhere.

Now, after three days doing this nonstop, the bodies of his friends began to talk to him. They asked him why he'd never talked to them about Jesus. He felt an immense guilt descend on him. He was a bit vague about it, but the implication to me was that his friends were in Hell, having not accepted Jesus. He fell to his knees and begged Jesus to lift the guilt from him, promising to spend his life preaching.

Now, what we have here is quite obviously a psychotic break brought on by post-traumatic stress. Countless people around the world - Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, atheists - have had virtually identical things happen to them. But is that the conclusion of this guy? No, as he made clear to the interviewer, he didn't even consider for a second that he might be hallucinating (although the doctor present told him he was, obviously). It's God talking to him, because he's special. Other people who have psychotic hallucinations are just crazy, but when it happens to him it's him and the Almighty having a little chat. Given that no Christian can present a shred of objective evidence in support of their faith, it's irritating to be lectured about the nature of reality by someone clearly so clueless about the unreliability of subjective experience.

Then there's the insanity of the core beliefs. I'll just be brief about this since it's been done to death, but if, in a world unaware of Christianity, someone showed up at the local mental hospital spouting the essentials of the Christian doctrine (virgin birth, walking on water, water into wine, resurrection etc) they'd probably be locked up. Just because a lot of people believe it doesn't make it any less insane. I've never seen anyone resurrected, or water changed into wine, and neither has anyone else, and I'm not going to believe it happened because a 2000 year old piece of paper says so. If you think you can arrive at those beliefs by the application of reason then you're kidding yourself, plain and simple.

Finally, there's the willingness to accept moral outrages as long as God says it's right. I'm not talking about religious wars and torture and so forth, although lord knows I could talk about that at length. But for instance, many Christians believe that sinners will be tortured for eternity in the fires of hell, and yet have no problem giving "mercy" as one of the qualities of the sadistic monster responsible. I would not sentence anyone to eternal torture for any crime and I am not a man of infinite mercy. But God says it's OK to torture even quite minor criminals for the rest of Time, so it must be all right. I find this kind of thinking, if you can call it that, both contemptible and angering.

Phew. Tell you what I really think, right? /images/graemlins/smile.gif Hope some of that made some sense to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

omg!!lol

this needs to be quoted for its truth and the irony here.
excellent. i feel much better now after looking at this post.
ty, chris


ive felt so alone in my spiritual world but this is the type of thing i love.

[ChrisV]

irony?