Define Love

[Speedlimits]

Recently, a girl whom I cared very much about (ie. I loved her) said she did not feel the same way about me. We were extremely compatible both intellectually and physically. But the reason for her "breaking up" with me was the following:

She said she had loved someone once and remembered that feeling inside of her, when she was with me she didn't feel "that feeling."

Is love always the same feeling? I told her the person she first loved was more of a concept to her, she didn't really know him that well and she was MUCH younger. Yet she still holds onto this claim.

I find this phenomenon very prevalent. People will reminisce about certain events/people and exaggerate either the significance or magnitude of it. I even do it myself, talking about how fun a party was or great a time you had. When in reality, it wasn't nearly as fun as it was or great.

The reason I am questioning her decision is because I felt that SHE loved me and that is why I pursued her. Every instinct in my body told me she loved me, yet her only "compass" is her first love when she was 18, over 4 years ago.

So my question is, is love a consistent feeling that is the same regardless of the individual(you're in love with) or a feeling that CAN be different depending on the individual.

[paperjam]

Maybe there are degrees of love, that is the difference. In which case, if she loved you less than him, and was looking for a higher degree of love, she might be right to move on.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe there are degrees of love, that is the difference. In which case, if she loved you less than him, and was looking for a higher degree of love, she might be right to move on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah that's a good point. It's just sh.itty when you expose yourself fully to someone only to find out you're not good enough.

[arahant]

Wow. Maybe Dr. Phil can help us...

I've done this. I still do this. I'll probably die lonely, though. 4 years is nothing. I'm attached to a ideal...maybe 15 years later /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

I'll just gloss over the part about how much it sucks to be in love with someone, and feel a connection, and not have it be recipricated...sorry man.

There is an interesting question in there of 'is love the same thing every time'. I never thought about it, but I think it probably isn't. I think someday i'll 'fall in love' with someone, but i can't believe it will be the same as what i felt before. Everyone comes to a recognition of their feelings at their own speed, and it sounds like you didn't meet at the right time. Even if years later, you end up being a 'rebound' relationship, because there is no way to live up to unrealistic memories and expectations. If your perceptions are accurate, it could still take her many years to realize that love isn't the same thing every time, and by then, she's realizing it with someone else. :|

[KUJustin]

I don't think that love has anything to do with feelings. But it's nice that the feelings usually come with it.

[soon2bepro]

There may be a degree, but as you say, it's usually more about projecting and fantasizing than about the person.

You can't define an emotion, the closest you can get to it is by observing behavoir and psychosomatic activity (no, I don't mean psychosomatic illness, but rather compressed chest, "butterflies in stomach", etc)

Finally, about this girl... I don't know her at all. And I know very little about you, from a couple of your posts I've read. But in my experience if she says she wants to end it because she doesn't love you, you're better off agreeing with her. If she found out she made a mistake, she'll come back. Trying to force her to stay is probably only going to make it worse. And even if you succeed, she'll just leave you later on.

[Scotch78]

The emotional lexicon of English is horribly impoverished, and a big part of your question stems from that privation. "Love" simply does not capture the richness and variety of love.

Scott

[soon2bepro]

[ QUOTE ]
The emotional lexicon of English is horribly impoverished, and a big part of your question stems from that privation. "Love" simply does not capture the richness and variety of love.

Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure this is what you're implying, but other languages are really bad at this too. English is one of the worst, I'll agree. (At least informal, day-to-day english.). But in my experience, all languages are poor in this subject. (and in many others, if not all, truly)

[soon2bepro]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah that's a good point. It's just sh.itty when you expose yourself fully to someone only to find out you're not good enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed. It makes you kinda want to know up front if you're going to be good enough for someone or not. But that's usually more bad than good, and after a few months who knows if you're still gonna be n° 1 or what.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
There may be a degree, but as you say, it's usually more about projecting and fantasizing than about the person.

You can't define an emotion, the closest you can get to it is by observing behavoir and psychosomatic activity (no, I don't mean psychosomatic illness, but rather compressed chest, "butterflies in stomach", etc)

Finally, about this girl... I don't know her at all. And I know very little about you, from a couple of your posts I've read. But in my experience if she says she wants to end it because she doesn't love you, you're better off agreeing with her. If she found out she made a mistake, she'll come back. Trying to force her to stay is probably only going to make it worse. And even if you succeed, she'll just leave you later on.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is she wants to remain "friends." She says we can still cuddle and "do stuff" but that we will talk less/see each other less. As much as I want to be with her, I think
simply being friends would be torture for me.

If I saw her being affectionate with another guy I couldn't handle it. Perhaps it is best to end the relationship all together? It's like I either want to be with you all the way or nothing at all. This in between friends and lovers BS would just toy with my emotions. Because realistically for me, I can't just be friends with a girl who I love to be with and am very attracted too.

The alternative to ending the relationship all together is to relegate to friend status. But that means that everytime I see her I will want to be with her, and because in her mind she doesn't love me, it won't be possible. So I will continue to try to attain a goal that isn't attainable. I'm going to tell her today that she needs to figure out if she loves me, because if she doesn't I can't see her anymore.

S.hit is depressing.

[Matt R.]

A little pop psychology here for you Speedlimits, but I think you'll be surprised how true it is if you actually try this.

Speedlimits: do not tell her you can't see her anymore. If you feel THIS strongly (based on all of your interactions with her) that she loves you, she probably does. Not sure what the degree of it is, but she probably has feelings for you.

Keep the relationship as is. Show affection to other girls. Spend less time with her because you, for instance, have a date with someone else. Flirt with other girls when she is around. After all, she claims she doesn't have feelings for you and you are not "together", so there is NO reason why this should be wrong. It would be what you would do if you went out with other friends.

This will do two things. For you, you will realize that although you love her, you are not letting this love hold you back from "living life" -- you are not obsessing over her and you are enjoying the company of other girls. If you can't be with the one you love there is no reason to be miserable over it. Secondly, if she does have feelings for you, this will make her realize it much more easily. She will see you with other girls and want to be the one with you. If she really does have feelings for you, the chance of this actually working is very high (unless something within the dynamics of your relationship changes... such as if you tell her you can't see her anymore).

Why do you think everyone has the impression that the "bad guys" get the girls? It's not because they are bad. It is because they don't let the girl they love hurt them. They are "strong" about it -- they still go out and have fun. The girl(s) then typically want to be with them. "Needing" the girl is a turn-off because it looks weak and it honestly probably is not fun having some insecure guy's happiness depend on you. I'm not saying you're the insecure guy, but a lot of this does stem from insecurity... the feeling that if you can't have this one girl then you will be alone.

Yes, it is pop psychology. But I'm very sure this is an accurate representation of the way this stuff works.

Good luck with the girl /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
A little pop psychology here for you Speedlimits, but I think you'll be surprised how true it is if you actually try this.

Speedlimits: do not tell her you can't see her anymore. If you feel THIS strongly (based on all of your interactions with her) that she loves you, she probably does. Not sure what the degree of it is, but she probably has feelings for you.

Keep the relationship as is. Show affection to other girls. Spend less time with her because you, for instance, have a date with someone else. Flirt with other girls when she is around. After all, she claims she doesn't have feelings for you and you are not "together", so there is NO reason why this should be wrong. It would be what you would do if you went out with other friends.

This will do two things. For you, you will realize that although you love her, you are not letting this love hold you back from "living life" -- you are not obsessing over her and you are enjoying the company of other girls. If you can't be with the one you love there is no reason to be miserable over it. Secondly, if she does have feelings for you, this will make her realize it much more easily. She will see you with other girls and want to be the one with you. If she really does have feelings for you, the chance of this actually working is very high (unless something within the dynamics of your relationship changes... such as if you tell her you can't see her anymore).

Why do you think everyone has the impression that the "bad guys" get the girls? It's not because they are bad. It is because they don't let the girl they love hurt them. They are "strong" about it -- they still go out and have fun. The girl(s) then typically want to be with them. "Needing" the girl is a turn-off because it looks weak and it honestly probably is not fun having some insecure guy's happiness depend on you. I'm not saying you're the insecure guy, but a lot of this does stem from insecurity... the feeling that if you can't have this one girl then you will be alone.

Yes, it is pop psychology. But I'm very sure this is an accurate representation of the way this stuff works.

Good luck with the girl /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow thank you for this post. Last night she was actually talking about how she is attracted to cocky guys that are [censored]. She said that she wasn't even physically attracted to the person but that his personality made her want him.

I think I might have been needy too. A few times I told her how into her I was and it could have been a turn off. Now, I'm actually going to take your advice and put myself in a position for her to realize how much she cares about me.

No more cuddling, kissing etc. I might try to seduce her roommate to make her jealous because she obviously can't figure things out on her own. Depending on how she reacts will determine how much she cares.

[random]

Maybe the first time she felt that way for that guy she thought he was "the one." She has since been forced to realize that "the one" doesn't exist. Love is suddenly less special, but she still wants to have that feeling. She's either going to have to realize that and move on, or find some guy that can make her completely forget about the first dude (unlikely).

If she likes a-holes, she obviously doesn't like herself too much. She is undeserving of your affection. She knows it on some level, but you apparently don't. I wouldn't try and change her mind. She seeks validation from guys who don't have the ability to care about other people, and you're not one of them.

Maybe?

[txag007]

Love is a choice.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
Love is a choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it is chemical. Nice try though.

[txag007]

Love is not a feeling.

[keith123]

i actually know a few young women around my age (27) who either are looking for a love like their first "real" love, or who don't think they'll ever find it and are generally disappointed by this realization. a couple of them had relationships that lasted less than 3 months (and i'd suspect they MIGHT feel differently if they had a chance to let those relationships sour), and one was a little over a year.

anyway, yeah love is chemical, but it is more than that as well. as for the feelings that women (especially) could confuse for love, sexual bonding can really screw up their heads long-term. i personally think that women aren't really designed to have multiple close partnerships (i know a lot of men and women here will dispute this, and i am not saying it doesn't happen and frequently, but i just think it goes against normally-functioning female nature). the idea that someone could intensely bond themselves to someone else, have that bond "broken" and then go on and create an equally strong bond with someone else, seems unlikely to me (chemically in a way that men just DON'T bond - we lack some of their more intense bond-driving hormones - you know, the ones that make them forgive their boyfriends time after time - the ones that in nature help their children have a protective father even if he is a jerk to her).

having said all that, dude, i think you are screwed. by staying anywhere NEAR this girl, you are only going to strengthen her feelings that you are NOT the guy for her. give yourself some space. tell your mind it is completely over (and man, it probably is). who knows what can happen in the future, but i'd look elsewhere for now.

[KUJustin]

That pop psych post is really, really bad. Not because it's wrong, but in fact, because it is right.

Just because that will "work" does not make it a good solution. It's selfish, manipulative, and can end up prolonging a relationship that shouldn't happen.

IF this relationship with her can work then it can work without crap like that. And if she says she doesn't love you be very careful about trying to convince her she's wrong. I was in this exact situation only I was breaking up with the girl and she probably could've gotten me to stay if she'd really tried but it would've just prolonged the problem because I still would've left eventually.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
That pop psych post is really, really bad. Not because it's wrong, but in fact, because it is right.

Just because that will "work" does not make it a good solution. It's selfish, manipulative, and can end up prolonging a relationship that shouldn't happen.

IF this relationship with her can work then it can work without crap like that. And if she says she doesn't love you be very careful about trying to convince her she's wrong. I was in this exact situation only I was breaking up with the girl and she probably could've gotten me to stay if she'd really tried but it would've just prolonged the problem because I still would've left eventually.

[/ QUOTE ]

I re-thought this whole situation and realized the best solution is to just be friends with her.

[PokerAmateur4]

How long have you been hanging with this girl and how much, OP?

[Tennenbaum]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe there are degrees of love, that is the difference. In which case, if she loved you less than him, and was looking for a higher degree of love, she might be right to move on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah that's a good point. It's just sh.itty when you expose yourself fully to someone only to find out you're not good enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have felt the same way. When other people move on, or just stop feeling something, or tell you they never felt it...it stinks. And it's hard because they move on w/out seeming like anything is a big loss and here you are stuck in the same spot feeling the same things and there is nothing you can do about it. I am in the same situation. The only thing that you can do is realize that it's just not meant to be and mourn the loss. Go out and still enjoy your life. Cause someday you will find someone that loves you back. And when that happens you'll look back at this and realize how lucky you were that you didnt get stuck with someone who didnt realize how wonderful you are. It sounds cliche, but it's true.

[ZenMusician]

[ QUOTE ]
it's hard because they move on w/out seeming like anything is a big loss and here you are stuck in the same spot feeling the same things and there is nothing you can do about it...The only thing that you can do is realize that it's just not meant to be and mourn the loss. Go out and still enjoy your life.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFMFT!!

Well said, T

-ZEN

[revots33]

Sounds like she was in love before but now she isn't.

As for defining love, I guess it's like the old saying about defining good art - "You'll know it when you see it."

Sucks for you, but it doesn't mean anything's "wrong" with you. Maybe there have been girls that were in love with you that you didn't feel the same about. It happens.

But once the girl says she doesn't have "those feelings" for you, I don't see much chance for you with her. You can't talk someone into loving you. No worries, the right person will come, better to find out sooner than later.

[dcasper70]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it's hard because they move on w/out seeming like anything is a big loss and here you are stuck in the same spot feeling the same things and there is nothing you can do about it...The only thing that you can do is realize that it's just not meant to be and mourn the loss. Go out and still enjoy your life.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFMFT!!

Well said, T

-ZEN

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey Zen & Tennenbaum,

You two should meet. If for nothing more than moral support (but who knows???).

You only live about 15 minutes apart...

[Tennenbaum]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it's hard because they move on w/out seeming like anything is a big loss and here you are stuck in the same spot feeling the same things and there is nothing you can do about it...The only thing that you can do is realize that it's just not meant to be and mourn the loss. Go out and still enjoy your life.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFMFT!!

Well said, T

-ZEN

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey Zen & Tennenbaum,

You two should meet. If for nothing more than moral support (but who knows???).

You only live about 15 minutes apart...

[/ QUOTE ]

We were gonna meet up at the movies but his car died. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[AceofSpades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A little pop psychology here for you Speedlimits, but I think you'll be surprised how true it is if you actually try this.
[..]Why do you think everyone has the impression that the "bad guys" get the girls? It's not because they are bad. It is because they don't let the girl they love hurt them. They are "strong" about it -- they still go out and have fun. The girl(s) then typically want to be with them. "Needing" the girl is a turn-off because it looks weak and it honestly probably is not fun having some insecure guy's happiness depend on you. I'm not saying you're the insecure guy, but a lot of this does stem from insecurity... the feeling that if you can't have this one girl then you will be alone.

Yes, it is pop psychology. But I'm very sure this is an accurate representation of the way this stuff works.

Good luck with the girl /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow thank you for this post. Last night she was actually talking about how she is attracted to cocky guys that are [censored]. She said that she wasn't even physically attracted to the person but that his personality made her want him.

I think I might have been needy too. A few times I told her how into her I was and it could have been a turn off. Now, I'm actually going to take your advice and put myself in a position for her to realize how much she cares about me.

No more cuddling, kissing etc. I might try to seduce her roommate to make her jealous because she obviously can't figure things out on her own. Depending on how she reacts will determine how much she cares.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP, it seems to me that she likes who you are, but you probably are doing something that reduces her attraction for you.

Most likely it's being needy, smothering her, or leaning on her _constantly_ for emotional support. Being a little cocky and funny, and passing/not putting up with her "are you worthy of me" tests (do a search on sh*t test) would probably fix this.

Whether you want to fix it is up to you.

Attraction is only a part of love, I think, but it does make the difference between friends and lovers.

[dcasper70]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it's hard because they move on w/out seeming like anything is a big loss and here you are stuck in the same spot feeling the same things and there is nothing you can do about it...The only thing that you can do is realize that it's just not meant to be and mourn the loss. Go out and still enjoy your life.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFMFT!!

Well said, T

-ZEN

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey Zen & Tennenbaum,

You two should meet. If for nothing more than moral support (but who knows???).

You only live about 15 minutes apart...

[/ QUOTE ]

We were gonna meet up at the movies but his car died. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
no wonder he's been so bummed out lately....

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
i actually know a few young women around my age (27) who either are looking for a love like their first "real" love, or who don't think they'll ever find it and are generally disappointed by this realization. a couple of them had relationships that lasted less than 3 months (and i'd suspect they MIGHT feel differently if they had a chance to let those relationships sour), and one was a little over a year.

anyway, yeah love is chemical, but it is more than that as well. as for the feelings that women (especially) could confuse for love, sexual bonding can really screw up their heads long-term. i personally think that women aren't really designed to have multiple close partnerships (i know a lot of men and women here will dispute this, and i am not saying it doesn't happen and frequently, but i just think it goes against normally-functioning female nature). the idea that someone could intensely bond themselves to someone else, have that bond "broken" and then go on and create an equally strong bond with someone else, seems unlikely to me (chemically in a way that men just DON'T bond - we lack some of their more intense bond-driving hormones - you know, the ones that make them forgive their boyfriends time after time - the ones that in nature help their children have a protective father even if he is a jerk to her).

having said all that, dude, i think you are screwed. by staying anywhere NEAR this girl, you are only going to strengthen her feelings that you are NOT the guy for her. give yourself some space. tell your mind it is completely over (and man, it probably is). who knows what can happen in the future, but i'd look elsewhere for now.

[/ QUOTE ]

She is actually moving out of state because she is graduating next month. We will remain acquaintances but I think our friendship will definitely lessen. In my mind I've accepted that I won't/can't be with her, it actually makes it easier for me that she is moving.

I'm not 100% convinced that she won't ever want to be with me but I'm not going to worry about it anymore.