What constitutes a lie?

[Enrique]

I was wondering if making ambiguous statements that are made to deceive count as a lie.
Example:
You have a girlfriend and you are going out to have coffee with a female friend. Assume your girlfriend doesn;t like you going out for coffee with females. When your girlfriend asks where you are going you could say: "I am going with a friend" or "I am going to get a cup of coffee with a friend". Is that a lie?
Now assuming you don't count it as a lie:
If she then answers "Have fun with him" (or some other sentence where she clearly shows that she misinterpreted your sentence to refer to a male friend). Would you be obligated to correct her? Does silence count as a lie there?

There are many more possible examples of truths that are said ambiguously to deceive. Are they lies?

[hmkpoker]

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You have a girlfriend and you are going out to have coffee with a female friend. Assume your girlfriend doesn;t like you going out for coffee with females.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dump her. If you have to make posts like this, you're with the wrong person.

[keith123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have a girlfriend and you are going out to have coffee with a female friend. Assume your girlfriend doesn;t like you going out for coffee with females.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dump her. If you have to make posts like this, you're with the wrong person.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha, actually that is good advice. But either way, if you aren't making a false statement, you aren't lying. However you are definitely being deceitful.

[Enrique]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have a girlfriend and you are going out to have coffee with a female friend. Assume your girlfriend doesn;t like you going out for coffee with females.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dump her. If you have to make posts like this, you're with the wrong person.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahahaha.
It is hypothetichal. I don't have a girlfriend. I was just thinking of the ambiguoity of language and how it can be used for deceiving.

[keith123]

do you think a lie is somehow worse than another form of deceit? don't get hung up on the semantics of whether or not something is a lie.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
I was wondering if making ambiguous statements that are made to deceive count as a lie.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Count" according to what standard? Morally? If your ambiguous statement results in death or something, I'd say it morally qualifies as a "lie." Definitionally? Depends on the dictionary, that's irrelevant. Philosophically? Might use intent to deceive as a standard, but obviously there are various interpretations.

But there's no objective standard for what "counts" as a lie. I don't like this [censored] personally, but I don't even like "white lies." Some social groups have different dynamics. Would the girl blame you for lying? Does she expect it of you? Would she feel hurt if she found out the truth? Was your intent malicious? The actual effects of this "style" of deception will depend on factors like these. Oh yeah, and how sure are you that you can get away with it?

[keith123]

a poker player that has a problem with the white lie!

[thylacine]

[ QUOTE ]
a poker player that has a problem with the white lie!

[/ QUOTE ]

In poker, cards speak and chips speak. Nothing else counts. Provided no actual cheating is occurring, all assertions made in poker are tautologies. In poker, in it's pure form, lying is simply not possible.

[keith123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a poker player that has a problem with the white lie!

[/ QUOTE ]

In poker, cards speak and chips speak. Nothing else counts. Provided no actual cheating is occurring, all assertions made in poker are tautologies. In poker, in it's pure form, lying is simply not possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

well i'd guess you never play live, but even online there is the chatbox, right? you've never said "i had top pair?"

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a poker player that has a problem with the white lie!

[/ QUOTE ]

In poker, cards speak and chips speak. Nothing else counts. Provided no actual cheating is occurring, all assertions made in poker are tautologies. In poker, in it's pure form, lying is simply not possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

well i'd guess you never play live, but even online there is the chatbox, right? you've never said "i had top pair?"

[/ QUOTE ]

I think madnak would say, and I would agree with him, that if the other party fully expects and wants you to lie to them then lying is ok. This isn't exactly the case in a white lie, although it can be. In poker, it is implicit in the game. The other people want you to lie to them so that they can lie to you, because those are the unwritten but unanimously agreed-upon rules.

However, if you have someone at the table that you know well, and he always tells you the truth about what he has, etc, and you know he expects the same from you, then doing otherwise is certainly lying.

[keith123]

lol. that one changed my mind. OP call up a male friend of yours and make sure he knows the cover story, then tell your girl you are with that guy.

[keith123]

...oh yeah, and have sex with the female friend.

[cambraceres]

To lie is to attempt through coercion or subversion of the truth, to mischaracterize an existent or system of them.

Aristotle called this the highest form of sin, but he may have been chemically altered at the time.

Ayn Rand said that a liar is one who lies as a matter of course, not one who miscahracterizes the truth to acheive some desired effect on a rare or neccessary basis.

So what do you think?

Cam

[vhawk01]

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lol. that one changed my mind. OP call up a male friend of yours and make sure he knows the cover story, then tell your girl you are with that guy.

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If you are going to treat others with this little respect why don't you just do what you want and then just tell them about it. You obviously don't care about them, who cares if they get pissed?

[thylacine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a poker player that has a problem with the white lie!

[/ QUOTE ]

In poker, cards speak and chips speak. Nothing else counts. Provided no actual cheating is occurring, all assertions made in poker are tautologies. In poker, in it's pure form, lying is simply not possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

well i'd guess you never play live, but even online there is the chatbox, right? you've never said "i had top pair?"

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just irrelevant chatter. It's not part of the poker game in it's pure form. There is not, and can not be, any deception in pure poker.

[madnak]

I do lie. I also backstab my friends. I offer things and then withdraw them. I con people, friends of mine, into trusting me - and then take pleasure in betraying that trust.

Yes, I try to do all of these things every time I play Risk. Plus, I sometimes wage war on America.

[MaxWeiss]

I define lying as any intentional misleading, whether it's lying, half lying, telling only part of the truth, or anything else. If it is intentional deception, it is a lie.

Most everybody I know doesn't feel this way.

But they just want to have a justification for what is LYING. They just want to somehow feel okay about it. If you are going to lie, at least have the integrity to not lie to yourself about it. You are intentionally deceiving somebody; YOU ARE LYING.

I do lie. I just don't lie to myself about it and try to justify it. I try not to lie, and in fact, I hold in high regard the fact that I am completely open and honest with every one who is close to me. I have nothing to hide, and while I don't expect that of others, I make it clear that I don't tolerate lying (in any form, as I have described it). If you have parts of your life you don't want me to know about, just say so--I won't pry. But if you intentionally mislead me (and I find out), you.. are... outta here!!!

I just don't tolerate lying, in any form. Plain and simple.


Now then, to the original post. Tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. If she can't handle you going out with a female friend (who IS BTW, just a friend, right????...) then that is her problem, and if it becomes yours, you should seriously consider dumping her. I handle cases like this with something like "She's truly just a friend. I care very much about you and I want you to know that, and nothing will happen, and even if it did--which it won't--I would have the decency to tell you. Trust me and I will show you the same respect." That don't work, the bitch is high and dry.