Hows my line?

[iFoldTheNuts]

Multitabling and fairly new to the table but the villain seems fairly aggressive but no hands have been shown down, so maybe he's been getting good cards.

Absolute Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif
2 folds, Button calls, Hero calls, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises to $0.6</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $2.1</font>, BB calls.

Flop: 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif ($4.3, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $2.2</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises to $5.1</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($14.5, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero is all-in $10.7</font>, BB calls.

River: 7/images/graemlins/club.gif ($35.9, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $35.9)


Results:
Final pot: $35.9

I did not want to push flop because that would totally give away my hand as an over pair or a set. Is this a good line against a seemingly aggressive opponent?

[Hail Eris]

WTF preflop?

[lacrymosa]

call preflop and push the flop

[MegalomaniaMan]

[ QUOTE ]
call preflop and push the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

i concur.

[iFoldTheNuts]

[ QUOTE ]
call preflop and push the flop

[/ QUOTE ].

you want me to push $17 into a $1.5 pot? This is probably the worst advice I've ever heard.

[iFoldTheNuts]

[ QUOTE ]
WTF preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I put him on 2 face cards and figured I would raise for value since he's only gonna hit a pair 1/3 of the time and I will likely take it with a c-bet.

[the machine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
call preflop and push the flop

[/ QUOTE ].

you want me to push $17 into a $1.5 pot? This is probably the worst advice I've ever heard.

[/ QUOTE ]

umm no. call preflop. but as played push the flop. its only about a PSB to push

[HojoMofo]

they mean push after the raise doofus.

[Heichamato]

Why are you reraising this hand OOP?
Push flop seems good, since you were about to push any turncard anyway. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[iFoldTheNuts]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you reraising this hand OOP?
Push flop seems good, since you were about to push any turncard anyway. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

He was being aggressive and his raises didn't mean much. I put him on 2 face cards and figured I would raise for value since he's only gonna hit a pair 1/3 of the time and I will likely take it with a c-bet. I normally play these types of PP's for set value but when it folded around to me I decided to make this play.

Again, pushing the flop totally gives my hand away I think. What else am I pushing with besides an over pair and a set?

[iFoldTheNuts]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
call preflop and push the flop

[/ QUOTE ].

you want me to push $17 into a $1.5 pot? This is probably the worst advice I've ever heard.

[/ QUOTE ]

umm no. call preflop. but as played push the flop. its only about a PSB to push

[/ QUOTE ]

No, stacks are $20, not $10, We have $15 behind us with that $5 pot.

[the machine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
call preflop and push the flop

[/ QUOTE ].

you want me to push $17 into a $1.5 pot? This is probably the worst advice I've ever heard.

[/ QUOTE ]

umm no. call preflop. but as played push the flop. its only about a PSB to push

[/ QUOTE ]

No, stacks are $20, not $10, We have $15 behind us with that $5 pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

just look at your turn push!!!!!!! 10 into 14. you dont even have a PSB left. and there are spades out there. just get it all in now

and the other post is gross. you are reraising because h has 2 big cards. so in essence you know youre coinlipping and you have no idea what he has. so if you dont hit a set and you lead out and he raises on a 9 high flop or a queen high flop or on an ace high flop do you feel comfortable on any of these flops. i dont.

[iFoldTheNuts]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
call preflop and push the flop

[/ QUOTE ].

you want me to push $17 into a $1.5 pot? This is probably the worst advice I've ever heard.

[/ QUOTE ]

umm no. call preflop. but as played push the flop. its only about a PSB to push

[/ QUOTE ]

No, stacks are $20, not $10, We have $15 behind us with that $5 pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

just look at your turn push!!!!!!! 10 into 14. you dont even have a PSB left. and there are spades out there. just get it all in now

[/ QUOTE ]

But I know I'm ahead, I dont want him to fold, If I push doesn't it give away my hand? Doesn't any single pair fold?

[iFoldTheNuts]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
call preflop and push the flop

[/ QUOTE ].

you want me to push $17 into a $1.5 pot? This is probably the worst advice I've ever heard.

[/ QUOTE ]

umm no. call preflop. but as played push the flop. its only about a PSB to push

[/ QUOTE ]

No, stacks are $20, not $10, We have $15 behind us with that $5 pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

and the other post is gross. you are reraising because h has 2 big cards. so in essence you know youre coinlipping and you have no idea what he has. so if you dont hit a set and you lead out and he raises on a 9 high flop or a queen high flop or on an ace high flop do you feel comfortable on any of these flops. i dont.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a coinflip if it gets to the river. The point is he is only 3 to 1 to hit a pair on the flop. If I c-bet 1/2 pot on the flop he is likely to fold with just overcards, if he raises or calls I shut down. I dont see him calling with no pair after I 3 bet him preflop.

[the machine]

he might not fold

possible range for said donk

109 - A9, j10+ 1010-AA and i bet he only folds 30% of these. hes prolly calling as weak as AQo if hes as bad as you say he is. not to mention hes calling with a flush draw. so lets shove my friend

[Minnie Man]

The reraise PF is crazy. You first call with only the BB to act. The BB raises, now you are telling him you only had a hand to call with, now you has a great hand for a reraise? If you had a strong hand, you would have raised the button's call PF first.

You hit your miracle card on the flop, once reraised, push. You still got all the money in, but you let him see the turn for cheap. He could have easily outdrawn you on the turn if it was a spade, 8 or K.

[iFoldTheNuts]

[ QUOTE ]
he might not fold

possible range for said donk

109 - A9, j10+ 1010-AA and i bet he only folds 30% of these. hes prolly calling as weak as AQo if hes as bad as you say he is. not to mention hes calling with a flush draw. so lets shove my friend

[/ QUOTE ]

This guys is pushing QQ-AA, AK, maybe less. A-rag and any two face cards, any two connectors, one gappers are also in his range. Hes ultra loose preflop with raises and calls.

So like I said, it's more likely for him to miss this flop completely than anything, and I dont think I have to push out a lot of chips to get him to fold if he missed.

[Hail Eris]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a coinflip if it gets to the river. The point is he is only 3 to 1 to hit a pair on the flop. If I c-bet 1/2 pot on the flop he is likely to fold with just overcards, if he raises or calls I shut down. I dont see him calling with no pair after I 3 bet him preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You limped in the SB and then 3bet the BB. Your line looks like a resteal even to a donk, so he's gonna be extra suspicious and more likely to play back at you.

All the reasons you give for doing this are reasons for putting in the first raise, which is what you should have done in the first place. Also, playing a reraised pot like this with a small PP is extra bad because you're ruining your own implied odds for hitting a set, and you're gonna cry if BB 4bets you.

[iFoldTheNuts]

[ QUOTE ]
The reraise PF is crazy. You first call with only the BB to act. The BB raises, now you are telling him you only had a hand to call with, now you has a great hand for a reraise? If you had a strong hand, you would have raised the button's call PF first.

You hit your miracle card on the flop, once reraised, push. You still got all the money in, but you let him see the turn for cheap. He could have easily outdrawn you on the turn if it was a spade, 8 or K.

[/ QUOTE ]

So when I call, basically the only card that will let me take this pot is a 4, which I will hit 12% of the time on the flop. If I call, I'm out of position and I'm likely to face a 2 or 3 barrel bluff that I will not call with 3 overs on the board. By raising, I take the lead in the hand and he is reacting to me. He is the one that has to make the decision whether to play or fold.

[iFoldTheNuts]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's a coinflip if it gets to the river. The point is he is only 3 to 1 to hit a pair on the flop. If I c-bet 1/2 pot on the flop he is likely to fold with just overcards, if he raises or calls I shut down. I dont see him calling with no pair after I 3 bet him preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You limped in the SB and then 3bet the BB. Your line looks like a resteal even to a donk, so he's gonna be extra suspicious and more likely to play back at you. All the reasons you give for doing this are reasons for putting in the first raise, which is what you should have done in the first place. Also, playing a reraised pot like this with a small PP is extra bad because you're ruining your own implied odds for hitting a set, and you're gonna cry if BB 4bets you.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I raise PF with BB and 2 others to act after, where does that put me? If I get called by 2 or 3 people, there's not much I'm gonna do with 3 overs on the board. However, after he raised and it folded to me, as laggy as this guy is preflop I thought I probably have the best hand at this point and odds are against him hitting the flop so a c-bet will likely take the pot. He's like 30%ish to hit something on any given flop so I will take it with a 50% pot c-bet probably 70% of the time. So really I'm not looking for a set anymore, just looking to get more money in for the c-bet postflop.

[the machine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The reraise PF is crazy. You first call with only the BB to act. The BB raises, now you are telling him you only had a hand to call with, now you has a great hand for a reraise? If you had a strong hand, you would have raised the button's call PF first.

You hit your miracle card on the flop, once reraised, push. You still got all the money in, but you let him see the turn for cheap. He could have easily outdrawn you on the turn if it was a spade, 8 or K.

[/ QUOTE ]

So when I call, basically the only card that will let me take this pot is a 4, which I will hit 12% of the time on the flop. If I call, I'm out of position and I'm likely to face a 2 or 3 barrel bluff that I will not call with 3 overs on the board. By raising, I take the lead in the hand and he is reacting to me. He is the one that has to make the decision whether to play or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah but thats the purpose of playing 44 is to hit a set and make some money. we dont have to reraise, esp after a limp. if it limps or folds to you and you raise then its fine to pop it up. if we start playing lots of big pots with these hand at these limits its not going to be pretty. think we lose 7 time we dont flop a set and win 1 time we stack villain. so let do the math. we start with 17 so thats all we can get from villain

so other 7 times with no set if he hit something we lose 2.1+2.2 cbet or 4.3*7 = 30.1 now i know he will miss 2/3 of time but what about when we both flop sets

and i dont expect him to be too weak here. he has raised called a RR then raised a flop bet. so i think his hand is decent. and why would you think hes gonna 2 or 3 barrel bluff. this is 25 NL. only i used to do that

anyways you asked how your line was. if you like your line better then ours then why ask us.

[iFoldTheNuts]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The reraise PF is crazy. You first call with only the BB to act. The BB raises, now you are telling him you only had a hand to call with, now you has a great hand for a reraise? If you had a strong hand, you would have raised the button's call PF first.

You hit your miracle card on the flop, once reraised, push. You still got all the money in, but you let him see the turn for cheap. He could have easily outdrawn you on the turn if it was a spade, 8 or K.

[/ QUOTE ]

So when I call, basically the only card that will let me take this pot is a 4, which I will hit 12% of the time on the flop. If I call, I'm out of position and I'm likely to face a 2 or 3 barrel bluff that I will not call with 3 overs on the board. By raising, I take the lead in the hand and he is reacting to me. He is the one that has to make the decision whether to play or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah but thats the purpose of playing 44 is to hit a set and make some money. we dont have to reraise, esp after a limp. if it limps or folds to you and you raise then its fine to pop it up. if we start playing lots of big pots with these hand at these limits its not going to be pretty. think we lose 7 time we dont flop a set and win 1 time we stack villain. so let do the math. we start with 17 so thats all we can get from villain

so other 7 times with no set if he hit something we lose 2.1+2.2 cbet or 4.3*7 = 30.1 now i know he will miss 2/3 of time but what about when we both flop sets

and i dont expect him to be too weak here. he has raised called a RR then raised a flop bet. so i think his hand is decent. and why would you think hes gonna 2 or 3 barrel bluff. this is 25 NL. only i used to do that

anyways you asked how your line was. if you like your line better then ours then why ask us.

[/ QUOTE ]

we dont stack villain every time we hit a set.

And I was just trying to explain my play here and what I was thinking, and I certainly appreciate your feedback.

[iFoldTheNuts]

btw. villain had 10h Js

:Puke:

[the machine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The reraise PF is crazy. You first call with only the BB to act. The BB raises, now you are telling him you only had a hand to call with, now you has a great hand for a reraise? If you had a strong hand, you would have raised the button's call PF first.

You hit your miracle card on the flop, once reraised, push. You still got all the money in, but you let him see the turn for cheap. He could have easily outdrawn you on the turn if it was a spade, 8 or K.

[/ QUOTE ]

So when I call, basically the only card that will let me take this pot is a 4, which I will hit 12% of the time on the flop. If I call, I'm out of position and I'm likely to face a 2 or 3 barrel bluff that I will not call with 3 overs on the board. By raising, I take the lead in the hand and he is reacting to me. He is the one that has to make the decision whether to play or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah but thats the purpose of playing 44 is to hit a set and make some money. we dont have to reraise, esp after a limp. if it limps or folds to you and you raise then its fine to pop it up. if we start playing lots of big pots with these hand at these limits its not going to be pretty. think we lose 7 time we dont flop a set and win 1 time we stack villain. so let do the math. we start with 17 so thats all we can get from villain

so other 7 times with no set if he hit something we lose 2.1+2.2 cbet or 4.3*7 = 30.1 now i know he will miss 2/3 of time but what about when we both flop sets

and i dont expect him to be too weak here. he has raised called a RR then raised a flop bet. so i think his hand is decent. and why would you think hes gonna 2 or 3 barrel bluff. this is 25 NL. only i used to do that

anyways you asked how your line was. if you like your line better then ours then why ask us.

[/ QUOTE ]

we dont stack villain every time we hit a set.

And I was just trying to explain my play here and what I was thinking, and I certainly appreciate your feedback.

[/ QUOTE ]

i understand youre trying to explain your thinking. i just think its a bad way to think about it. villain wont always have just 2 over cards. and for the record j10s &gt; 44 preflop

yeah we wont stack villain every time we hit a set, and we dont lose much money either. building a big pot, with a marginal holding, OOP, after we already limped it, is a huge mistake/leak

[iFoldTheNuts]

this any better? No likely draws on the flop so i didn't make a move then.

Absolute Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $0.3</font>, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($1.8, 6 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $1</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises to $2</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: 5/images/graemlins/club.gif ($7.8, 3 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets $2</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises all-in $18.85</font>, 2 folds.
Uncalled bets: $16.85 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $13.8

[pdoran10]

call preflop and shove the flop.
This is .05/.10 NL you are not going to make much of anything but air fold.

Dont worry about giving away ur hand, 90% of players suck and cant fold a pair, especially at these limits.

[lacrymosa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
call preflop and push the flop

[/ QUOTE ].

you want me to push $17 into a $1.5 pot? This is probably the worst advice I've ever heard.

[/ QUOTE ]
I quite liked my advice if it were used correctly. Push AFTER the raise.

With the second hand I think just a standard raise is fine. No threatening draws that can stop us from pushing the river imo

[Check_The_Nuts]

need stack sizes in that second hand.

First hand seems pretty bad. Saying he's "ultra loose" preflop doesn't tell me anything though. Do you have stats on him or anything? Raising JT there makes me think he's like 60/50 or somethin.

btw, its 50/50 preflop (at best), and your playing a large pot OOP. Also, JT is much easier to play than 44. It should be obvious this is a bad idea. Oh, and you represent [censored] all.