Josh Arieh doesn't raise AK in EP, do you?

[whittiphil]

Thoughts?

I saw it at an interview:
"The biggest mistake I see amateurs making is playing big pots out of position. No Limit Hold'em is a positional game and I make it a point to have position when a big pot takes place. For example, say I am in the small blind with AK, I will very rarely raise with this kind of hand here, exclusively because of my position. Yes, the hand is good, but the position out weighs the "ranking value" of the hand. Pot-size management is more important than hand selection in No Limit poker. Work on that and you will become a much better player almost overnight."

From:
http://www.josharieh.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1124511709&archive= &start_from=&ucat=2&

So... I always raise it, maybe I'll stop doing it from the blinds...

[MINETZ]

arieh isnt playing in low stakes NL games were people call your raise and pay you off with severly dominated hands.

[whittiphil]

This is true... so his advice is good for 400NL and up maybe?

[ajmargarine]

There's a difference between EP and the SB. I don't raise AK out of the SB either in a situation where it's multiple limpers to me. Play a good hand cheap and well disguised is my motto there.

[djoyce003]

I will raise it headsup but i'll just limp against a huge field already in there out of position. For you to fold a bunch of people out you have to raise big and I don't want to play a big pot out of position, just like he talks about.

[Grunch]

[ QUOTE ]
I will raise it headsup but i'll just limp against a huge field already in there out of position. For you to fold a bunch of people out you have to raise big and I don't want to play a big pot out of position, just like he talks about.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my philosophy exactly also.

[fimbulwinter]

having actually reviewed a ton of JA cash NL hands (he plays at bodog under contract and one of my pm protoges often ends up in 600 games with him) i can tell you that JA's overall strategy calls for a lot of little preflop raises in position and a the winning of a lot of small to medium pots that result.

this is not tosay he's wrong, its just that you need to have an overall, cogent preflop strategy. if you steal a lot out of the blinds like i do, then AK needs to be in that range.

fim

[BoxTree]

This thread makes this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3274411&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=365&fpart=1) happy.

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif confirmation bias.

[DoomSlice]

I usually won't do it when my opponents are semi-competent. However against a table full of fishy limpers, you lose way too much value not raising this.

I'm willing to play a large pot out of position against players who I know I am much better at postflop.

[Grunch]

[ QUOTE ]
if you steal a lot out of the blinds like i do

[/ QUOTE ]

Even when you have numerous limpers involved already? What kinds of paramaters do you consider here?

[yvesaint]

[ QUOTE ]

if you steal a lot out of the blinds like i do, then AK needs to be in that range.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

Yessss I do this all the time. Someone in MP raises 3xBB, two calls, I come over top in SB or BB with something as weak as 99 or AJs. You do this every once in a while, people will credit you for AA-QQ, in the rare event one person calls your re-raise, they fold 60%+ of the time to a pot-sized bet on the flop.

I've started doing this in 400 NL, but I don't really suggest doing this in 25/50/100, unless you have a good read.

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually won't do it when my opponents are semi-competent. However against a table full of fishy limpers, you lose way too much value not raising this.

I'm willing to play a large pot out of position against players who I know I am much better at postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would rather win the medium sized pots that happen against the fishy limpers A9 and KJ when they call down with TPWK. I think you make up the value you lose by not making a PFR in these instances Plus, you don't have the onus on you to be aggressive if you get a few callers to an SB PFR and no A or K flops. You can just c/f and move on, saving you $.

[BBD]

Most of the time I'll raise AK from any position.

Funny. As I'm reading this thread, this is the first hand I see in an MTT.

Note: Hero is NOT the focus of this hand. Pay attention to the BB.


PPM V Semis Qualifier

Blinds (10/15)

Dealt to Hero: A/images/graemlins/heart.gif9/images/graemlins/heart.gif
2 folds, Hero calls, 5 calls, SB completes, BB raises to 60, 6 calls, 1 fold.


Flop: T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif
BB bets 150, Hero folds, 2 folds, 1 call, 2 folds

Turn: [T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif] 4/images/graemlins/club.gif
BB moves all-in for 790, 1 call

River: [T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB shows A/images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif
Caller shows J/images/graemlins/spade.gif8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Caller wins 2315 with two pairs, 8s and 4s.
BB finished in 168 place



Oh the perils of raising with AKs in the blinds.

[bkholdem]

Just as a counter argument regarding big games vs. small games: Big games don't have family pots like the baby stakes often do. Who wants to have AK in an unraised pot utg with 6 opponents who have limped in after him? Prior to the flop are you feeling really jazzed up about your hand when the action closes and everyone and their mother is in the hand and they all have position on you and your up against God knows what?

So now the flop comes with an A or K and you fire a pot size bet (let's say 2 bucks in a 25cent game), and are called in 3 places. Now the pot is 8-10bucks. A draw completing card falls on the turn, what's your move?

In other words, isn't their merit in charging drawing hands and garbage hands a premium to enter your pot when you hold a group one hand at a loose-passive table?

[highhustla]

Josh Arieh doesn't play SSNL.

[bkholdem]

[ QUOTE ]
Josh Arieh doesn't play SSNL.

[/ QUOTE ]

But this is a small stakes forum, isn't it? Are you a dick on purpose or by accident?

[Tupacia]

I think what highhustla was saying was that Arieh's advice and playing style might not be suited for SSNL as he plays in bigger games.

[BaHorst]

i hate josh arieh. nuff said

[Lizard King]

[ QUOTE ]
Just as a counter argument regarding big games vs. small games: Big games don't have family pots like the baby stakes often do. Who wants to have AK in an unraised pot utg with 6 opponents who have limped in after him? Prior to the flop are you feeling really jazzed up about your hand when the action closes and everyone and their mother is in the hand and they all have position on you and your up against God knows what?

So now the flop comes with an A or K and you fire a pot size bet (let's say 2 bucks in a 25cent game), and are called in 3 places. Now the pot is 8-10bucks. A draw completing card falls on the turn, what's your move?

In other words, isn't their merit in charging drawing hands and garbage hands a premium to enter your pot when you hold a group one hand at a loose-passive table?

[/ QUOTE ]


I totaly agree, I play 6-max where position is less important than full ring and I would hate to see some fish limp and flop two pair while I have TPTK. Plus when I'm 6-tabling its a lot easier to put someone on a hand if I PRF . Maybe if I played a medium stakes (400-1000) live game and I have real good reads I will limp but limping uses too much valuble brain power.

[kitaristi0]

[ QUOTE ]
I play 6-max where position is less important than full ring

[/ QUOTE ]

Debatable.

[Lizard King]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play 6-max where position is less important than full ring

[/ QUOTE ]

Debatable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't get me wrong, position in 6-max is very important. I usually limp with decent hands like KJ, AT medium PPs in EP while I raise them all day in late position. Raising AQ and AK in the blinds makes the play on later streets easier, which I like.

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
Big games don't have family pots like the baby stakes often do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see plenty of loose action at the 5/10+nl games I sweat live. The limped family pots are often the ones where you see trash bust good hands, just like SSNL.

[ QUOTE ]
I totaly agree, I play 6-max where position is less important than full ring

[/ QUOTE ]

What?!

[Lizard King]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Big games don't have family pots like the baby stakes often do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see plenty of loose action at the 5/10+nl games I sweat live. The limped family pots are often the ones where you see trash bust good hands, just like SSNL.

[ QUOTE ]
I totaly agree, I play 6-max where position is less important than full ring

[/ QUOTE ]

What?!

[/ QUOTE ]

It is less important cause you have only 5 people to act behind you at 6-max while at full ring you have 9. So it might be only slightly less but its not equal.

If you see trash bust good hands at 5/10NL than its even more reason to thin the field and make the trash fold. If some idiot still insists on calling every hand than you make a mental note and adjust your post-flop play.

All I'm saying is that it's important to raise cause u can put villain on a range. Now if the HUD shows me a 10% cold-calling stat from the villain than it becomes tougher to define his range.

[xGREGORx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I will raise it headsup but i'll just limp against a huge field already in there out of position. For you to fold a bunch of people out you have to raise big and I don't want to play a big pot out of position, just like he talks about.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my philosophy exactly also.

[/ QUOTE ]

x3

[dardo]

So, after reading the answers ... if you raise from the blinds against a field of limpers, it would be only as a bluff or with a high pair like TT-AA?

If it is a bluff, which hands would you prefer? I guess PP and anything the can hit deep like SC's, no?

It also looks like a very explotaible strategy, no? Thanks we are at the SSNL /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

regards,

dardo

[DWarrior]

[ QUOTE ]

So, after reading the answers ... if you raise from the blinds against a field of limpers, it would be only as a bluff or with a high pair like TT-AA?

If it is a bluff, which hands would you prefer? I guess PP and anything the can hit deep like SC's, no?

It also looks like a very explotaible strategy, no? Thanks we are at the SSNL /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

regards,

dardo

[/ QUOTE ]

Exploitable strategy by a field of limpers? Oxymoron?

[dardo]

I mean if you raise from the Blinds as a move - bluff.
It would be clear that is a bluff being that you're range is that small.

regards,

dardo

[Heaven]

The end line here is, Josh Arieh is missing out on alot of value. If we raise here, a good bet of lets say something like 5-6x BB (because of the limpers the pot is somewhat nice already) we sure as hell won't get all off villains to call us. We are raising here for value since we prolly have the best hand preflop (unless low/mid pairs, but we are like 45/55 to those... and they may even fold). So I always raise, if I'm not, I don't have much fold equity (which I get if I raise preflop) and how safe do I feel on a flop of A95rainbow when I bet and someone re-raise me?

Thats what we get for allowing hands like A5o see a cheap flop. Raise for value and folding equity dammit. Playing AK this way kind of turns it into 73o. Useless unless we hit a monster.

[Sciolist]

If there're one or two limpers, I quite often raise it in the hope of winning preflop from the SB. I also reraise if it's the BTN or CO as I figure there's a good chance of stealing....

[Khaos4k]

Who brought this thread back from the dead? I saw Fimbulwinter's post and got all excited! I wasn't around when he posted, but all of the archive posts that I've read of his are pure gold. Getting my hopes up *grumble grumble*

[cbloom]

[ QUOTE ]
There's a difference between EP and the SB. I don't raise AK out of the SB either in a situation where it's multiple limpers to me. Play a good hand cheap and well disguised is my motto there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to me completing the SB with AK is a mistake if it's multiway. You want to raise to thin the field and cbet. You only raise with JJ+ and AK, makes AK the "weak" hand in that mix. Better to have a raised pot OOP than a multiway pot with AK.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's a difference between EP and the SB. I don't raise AK out of the SB either in a situation where it's multiple limpers to me. Play a good hand cheap and well disguised is my motto there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to me completing the SB with AK is a mistake if it's multiway. You want to raise to thin the field and cbet. You only raise with JJ+ and AK, makes AK the "weak" hand in that mix. Better to have a raised pot OOP than a multiway pot with AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. With several limpers, taking down just the blinds is +EV and has low variance.

[PokerFink]

Lizard King,

[ QUOTE ]
(Position)It is less important cause you have only 5 people to act behind you at 6-max while at full ring you have 9.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally see what you mean. Because, you know, when I'm in the small blind, generally every single player at the table has limped into the pot in front of me. /images/graemlins/confused.gif [/sarcasm]

[ QUOTE ]
If you see trash bust good hands at 5/10NL than its even more reason to thin the field and make the trash fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you missed my point. I'm not arguing for/against a PFR from the blinds. I was simply correcting what you said. You said there aren't family pots at higher stakes; um, yeah there are. Maybe not quite as many, but they exist.

[ QUOTE ]
All I'm saying is that it's important to raise cause u can put villain on a range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I don't disagree. I wasn't arguing for/against you. I just think you need to re-examine some of your thinking.

[PokerFink]

Bottom Line:

SSNL: Raise AK from the blinds.

MSNL: Raise AK from the blinds.

HSNL: Don't play big pots out of position. Which, at times, means not raising AK from the blinds.

[darom03]

I posted a very similar post on the tactics forum some time ago and it got reponse from different noted authors (Ed Miller, Malmuth etc.)

Big discussion (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=genpok&Number=4519642&Sea rchpage=1&Main=4513807&Words=+darom03&topic=&Searc h=true#Post4519642)

Just to spice it up

[dardo]

[ QUOTE ]
Ed Miller said ... And, FWIW, I agree with Arieh. The biggest error I see amateurs make regularly in deep stack no limit is to play (or, sometimes even worse, to set up but then fold when it's too late) big pots out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right now my idea is to continue raising from the SB,BB with AK,even AQ + TT-AA.

But this opinion confused me ... arghhh.

regards,

dardo

[mjws00]

I think it is extremely important to remember context when considering generalizations such as this. Deep stack NL amateur tourney play is NOT the same as SSNL. Even mid or high stakes games play differently. We are looking at a different set of errors to exploit in each case.

In 6-max SSNL when we have AK in EP what errors are do we wish to induce? What common errors can we capitalize on OOP with this hand? Is this better done with a raise or call?

Whose money do we take with this hand? Against our common opponents we know they will have an extremely hard time getting away from any dominated ace or king that hits. They love suited cards, middle pairs, any broadway, lots of junk we can steal from on the flop or turn. They also don't know how to use their position against us.

I want to raise big enough preflop that they notice but come along. They WANT to see a flop. They NEED to see a flop. Dead Money is our friend. If we hit; dominated hands are coming. If we miss; a cbet takes it a VERY high percentage of the time, and almost no donk is calling our second barrel without a hand that beats us. They are DYING to put you on QQ+, AK if you are a decent player. Help them make that GREAT laydown. If they fancy themselves perceptive CR em. Twice if they don't clue in to the first one. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

EP we have the advantage of acting first, we can cause fear and panic. It isn't hard to block and control pot-size against poor passives. But we can't steal or make a power move later if we are weak early on. Mainly because our average opponents may not clue in without extremely consistent overt actions. Raise. BET. Take their money.

If the competition is excellent and capable of using position against me. I just want to take a small pot OOP. Isolation/Aggression or attempted pot control are both viable, but opponent specific.

Mike

[D.L.M.]

i think you miss the point. I believe and ak limp is fine in the blinds(i do raise it sometimes) as someone said earlier- you get just as much value, if not more from letting dominated hands call you down. If you opponents are truly horrible why raise up a big pot just so they can call you down with garbage. it makes more sense to let them make bigger mistakes by getting themselves into a wicked reverse implied odds situation by calling small bets in a small pot just to find out that their kicker is lame.