Is bluffing, betting hard and scaring people part of a solid 25NL game

[essence86]

Hi!

I thought about something earlier, as I watched some games at FTP.
Some people, who seem to be big winnes as 25NL, are very very aggressive. And, anybody can figure out that they DO NOT have AK,KK, AA every time.

The thing is...As I see it, you can play the game in two ways.
1. You bet bet bet, raise and bluff, try to scare people off hands, and win a lof of pots.

2. You fold much, play very tight, hope to make a big score with your AK when you flop the A, and curse the game when your AK lose to the 56o.

Each approach has its unique flavour.

Anyway, the main question was:

Do the big winners (8-10 PTBB/100Hands) play this aggressive style?

If I sit and play tight, I could wait for hours before flopping something great, and then I would have to at least double up.

Is bluffing and playing a lot of hands necessary to win at this rate?

[blackize]

Short answer no with a but

Long answer yes with an if

Edit: You should probably bluff very rarely at 25NL

[NL Newbie]

With a solid read and preferably with outs i'd say yes.

I dont mean bluff i.e. CBet, i mean... bluff "Scary card hits, he's for 1pair and will fold I BET HUGEEE"

[blackize]

Bluffing with outs is about the worst thing you can do.

[Phytopath]

yeah, semi-bluffing is bad :roll eyes:

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
Bluffing with outs is about the worst thing you can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement was joke right? Let's compare:

Bluffing with NO outs: I only win if my opponent folds.

Bluffing WITH outs: I have two ways to win. One, my opponent folds. Two, I make the best hand by the river.

By any chance do you think that playing connectors if they are suited is also very bad?

[AliasMrJones]

You should study the game some more. These are not the only 2 approaches. For one thing, if I were going to play tight, wait to hit a big hand to stack someone, it wouldn't be AK flopping an A.

Secondly, bluffing people who won't fold isn't a good way to make money.

Think about what kinds of mistakes 25NL players typically make and then develop a strategy to make money by punishing those mistakes.

[MattsTheMan]

Play aggressive in CO and on Button and very tight in the Blinds that should easily make u a winning player. 95% of the players play like they don’t have a clue about what position is at that level.

[Shaddux]

[ QUOTE ]
Bluffing with outs is about the worst thing you can do.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't like value betting either.

[Panthro]

[ QUOTE ]
You should probably bluff never at 25NL

[/ QUOTE ]

Fixed.

[lefty rosen]

The biggest mistake donks at this level make are getting married to top pair or a big pair. If you can control that you can at least marginal beat these dingbat games. Also knowing what boards to steal on can help your winrate.

[kerplunkNL]

[ QUOTE ]
Bluffing with outs is about the worst thing you can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to explain?

[kabouter]

I've played around 3000hands at 25nl now and haven't won anything yet (played breakeven maybe $10 up or so /images/graemlins/wink.gif, and had a $100 downswing )

At 10nl I do seem to be a winning player. I think this is because I tend to cbet too much with air at nl25, I play more agressive. Overall I think I play better at 25nl, but it seems to be quite the same game as $10nl. I also want to punish limpers at 25nl but they seemt o just call me, and hit something on the flop so cbetting isn't working.

Now I'm gonna try things differently next week, I'm going to bluf less, and sometimes bet less.
I noticed that people on a draw, call my pot sized bet anyways so do people with top pair. People with air tend too fold to a half sized pot bet too though so why bet more at these levels? And I lost a lot of money check raising when people throw a minibet at me say 0,40 in a $2 pot. I read the books It's time to punish them for trying to cbet such a small amount, but my pot sized bet simply gets called.

So I'm simply going to bet less/reraise less and just play more rockish. People don't notice what I am doing anyways, only thing they seem to notice is stack sizes if I am 250bb deep people tend to respect my raises more often.

Feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[carnivalhobo]

[ QUOTE ]
Bluffing with outs is about the worst thing you can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

nope, try again

[eigenvalue]

No, I don't win money the way You think about it.

(1) I rarely bluff. My only bluff is the CB, which I use if no calling stations are in the hand with me. The only other bluff I use is the semi bluff with overcards and a flush draw. That's it. Don't bluff at these stakes!

(2) With TPTK, You can win some money, but it's not the major source of income, nor is it AA, KK or QQ. If I meet resistance with TPTK, I will more often lay it down than see a showdown. Maybe this makes me a winner at these levels, because I rarely loose my whole stack with TPTK. So this is quite the opposite as You stated in Your post or as You expect it to be. I LOVE MY STACK!

(3) I have four major sources that make me a winning player, but they are dependent on the other players at my table:

(a) This is my most favorite and most important one:
If there are minraisers at the table or people who limp a lot in front of me, I play any two cards out of the SB (if limped) or out of the BB (if minraised). I repeat: Any two cards! This way I win tons of stacks if I hit a flop hard. Two weeks agor for example I cracked KK and QQ in one hand, when they only minraised and I called with 62o out of the BB hitting two pair on the flop. But You have to learn how to play with trash hands out of the blinds! It's not that easy, because most of the time, You have to release Your hand, sometimes, You have to define Your hand with an undersized bet - I think, most players in the micros have a huge leak here -, and a few times You have to create heavy action.

(b) If I play "the usual way", because there are no minraisers or limpers, I play my hands aggressive. This sometimes creates situations, where weak players try to catch up with me, call to much with weak hands or call with draws against the odds.

(c) I can lay down hands. I can lay down hands repeatedly! If I guess someone is on a draw and calls against the odds and the draw completes on the turn or the river, I normally lay down my hand. I hate to give weak players implied odds.
If this happens a few times, people see me as a weak, tight player. I know it and I know that from now on, the bluffing rate of my aggressive opponents goes out of the window. This is my exception of the TPTK rule. Now, but only now, I call all-ins with it and stack people a lot, because they think they can bluff this weak, tight donkey out of another pot if they raise all-in.

(d) This is well known: I like to see any flop with a pair, if someone else raises and has a deep stack and if I saw that he is not to tricky. If I hit a set, sometimes it's paytime.

[Miraculix]

Hi.

These articles have helped me when starting out at 6 max. (Are we talking about 6 max here?)

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3410992&an=&page=0&vc=1

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=7827947&an=&page=&vc=1

Before reading these articles I was playing like 21/6 or something like that at 2,5PTBB/100, bending over for every sign of aggression. Now I´ve added the aggression to my own game, playing something like 21/13 and my PTBB/100 has gone up to about 8. I want to be the aggressor at the table raising, re-raising and stealing.

I´ve only played 6max for about 2 months so I´m no expert, so feel free to comment.

// M

PS. I think eigenvalues post can do some good to your strategy as well. DS

[Ben K]

Bluffing and playing a lot of hands is not neccessary to win at this level. Never bluffing is a good rule.

Betting hard is required. Scaring people is a bonus. Players who react emotionally play worse.

Playing lots of hands hard induces emotional responses from your opponents so the mistakes you make in betting so hard get cancelled out by the many more (and bigger) mistakes they make by playing back at you with vague holdings because they think you're an idiot who'll race with ace high. This method often wins a lot but has far higher variance.

I think the big winners are selectively aggressive. By noting that they are heads up with TPTK against a donk who'll happily pay his stack for a gutshot they profit by shoving with only TPTK. It can cause the illusion that they do this everytime they get TPTK (against anyone) if they practice good table selection and are often up against donks.

Don't close your mind to any one playing style. You'll meet them all and have to learn to beat most of them (if you avoid the rest) to be profitable. And anyway, the people you watched may simply have been running good....

[Antinome]

The thing is, you do both depending on position and your opponents.

And I find bluffing works fine at 25NL, as long as you have picked your target properly and your image is good. Especially in the post-party nitfest world.

[ymu]

I think it's useful to make a distinction between bluffing and c-betting. Bluffing is generally a bad idea at NL25, but c-betting is pretty necessary. Semi-bluffs with a good draw are also very different from a straight bluff - being half way between a bluff and a value bet.

Bluff-raising a weak lead is only going to work if that player routinely leads weak when they're bluffing/have a very weak hand and rarely otherwise. A lot of players at NL25 bet way too small whatever they have - or are more likely to bet small with a very strong hand. So - as with all other bluffs - know the player you're trying it against. And only do it if you really do have a good feel for what he has/doesn't have - you won't do much wrong by never bluffing at NL25 - but I'm excluding c-bets and semi-bluffs from this, as I think both of these are important.

[Montezuma21]

bluffing is ok if you choose the right villain and the right moment.

I'll fairly frequently bet out a 1/2 PSB from the blinds on a low non drawy (preferably paired) board against a nittish villain. If i'm called I GIVE IT UP. I think this is the key to bluffing at SSNL. choose your moments, but don't second barrel much (if at all). Bluff if you think your opponent has nothing. Don't bluff if you think you can fold out TPNK, because you can't.

Fold marginal hands PF that you wouldn't think twice about raising at 50NL (eg. 4 limpers, you're OTB with A6s. At 10NL, I'll either call or fold. Higher up, i'm stealing no problem.)

ALso, ALWAYS VALUE BET THE RIVER IF YOU THINK YOU'RE AHEAD AND VILLAIN WILL CALL WITH WORST HANDS eg:

10NL
50/10/1 calling station limps in CO. You raise BTN with AQo

flop comes AT3 rainbow (1$)
villain checks. you bet 1$. villain calls

turn is 9 ($3)
villain checks. you bet $2. villain calls

river is T. board AT39T with no flush ($7)
villain checks. in this spot, i like to bet around 1/2 pot because i know for a fact that his most likely holding is an A that is worse than mine. I also know that he will call to look you up. IMO that 45BB bet on the end (where many weak-tight TAGS will check) is where the big money comes from). PS: now that i think if it, there was a very good thread on aggressive
river value betting at SSNL. If anybody could link to it, that'd be cool.

Also, as a previous poster said, fold if a draw completes and the villain who's been chasing w.o correct odds bets out big.

[nyc999]

I think it's a good tool if used very sparingly.

I think bluffing is a major leak for several 25NL'ers - I don't think the conditions for a good bluff exist nearly as often as I see at this level.