Flush made on river--board paired. Action??

[Haplo]

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
9 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $27.10
UTG+1: $9.75
Hero: $25.90
MP2: $24.15
MP3: $23.70
CO: $27.90
Button: $38.55
SB: $14.50
BB: $61.75

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP1 with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: J/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($1.6, 6 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets $0.25</font>, Hero calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $1.25</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($6.6, 4 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, CO checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets $2</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, CO folds.

River: T/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($12.6, 3 players)
UTG+1 checks, HERO??????????

[Unknown Soldier]

put him all-in. (You're not worried about boat are you??)

[Shaddux]

?
push

[Sir Winalot]

lolz, what is this? Insta-push, this is a no-brainer.

[eigenvalue]

I'm very careful in betting or calling all-ins on a paired board and I think lots of micro stakes players in here have a huge leak in underrating these situations. An all-in here is an error, it's a huge error for sure!

I want to see a cheap showdown here and I would bet something like half the pot here, folding to an all-in reraise. If no one has a FH and someone hangs in there with a weaker flush, I get a call and I can extract some money. If I'm reraised all-in with 3 players in the pot, I can be pretty sure someone has the FH. 6 players saw the flop, 4 players saw the turn, 3 players see the river. That's way to much for me in beeing convinced that I'm still ahead here on a paired board. I maybe ahead, I maybe not ahead. You have to be very careful and always take into account how many players are left in a hand. There's a huge difference between a heads up pot and this pot!

And I hate paying off players who misplayed a hand and got lucky. Maybe a donkey slowplayed a set on the flop - terrible - but he caught his lucky turn card.

[Spleen]

I make a PSB and call a push. I mean, you have to bet. Would be terrible to have it get checked around here if you try a c/r. Why call the turn of you aren't going to get some chips on the river?

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm very careful in betting or calling all-ins on a paired board and I think lots of micro stakes players in here have a huge leak in underrating these situations. An all-in here is an error, it's a huge error for sure!

I want to see a cheap showdown here and I would bet something like half the pot here, folding to an all-in reraise. If no one has a FH and someone hangs in there with a weaker flush, I get a call and I can extract some money. If I'm reraised all-in with 3 players in the pot, I can be pretty sure someone has the FH. 6 players saw the flop, 4 players saw the turn, 3 players see the river. That's way to much for me in beeing convinced that I'm still ahead here on a paired board. I maybe ahead, I maybe not ahead. You have to be very careful and always take into account how many players are left in a hand. There's a huge difference between a heads up pot and this pot!

And I hate paying off players who misplayed a hand and got lucky. Maybe a donkey slowplayed a set on the flop - terrible - but he caught his lucky turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]
eigen, what is all this weak-tight advice your spamming all over the forum?

OP: whoops, I missed button was still in. Bet 9 on river for value.

[akkahai]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm very careful in betting or calling all-ins on a paired board and I think lots of micro stakes players in here have a huge leak in underrating these situations. An all-in here is an error, it's a huge error for sure!

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure you are not talking about omaha?

[Jouster777]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm very careful in betting or calling all-ins on a paired board and I think lots of micro stakes players in here have a huge leak in underrating these situations. An all-in here is an error, it's a huge error for sure!

I want to see a cheap showdown here and I would bet something like half the pot here, folding to an all-in reraise. If no one has a FH and someone hangs in there with a weaker flush, I get a call and I can extract some money. If I'm reraised all-in with 3 players in the pot, I can be pretty sure someone has the FH. 6 players saw the flop, 4 players saw the turn, 3 players see the river. That's way to much for me in beeing convinced that I'm still ahead here on a paired board. I maybe ahead, I maybe not ahead. You have to be very careful and always take into account how many players are left in a hand. There's a huge difference between a heads up pot and this pot!

And I hate paying off players who misplayed a hand and got lucky. Maybe a donkey slowplayed a set on the flop - terrible - but he caught his lucky turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]
eigen, what is all this weak-tight advice your spamming all over the forum?

OP: whoops, I missed button was still in. Bet 9 on river for value.

[/ QUOTE ]
I completely agree with Eigenvalue. First, the betting makes it very likely that neither villain has a flush here. Second, a J is likely for BTN and JT, 33, and 55 are definitely in button's range with his preflop limp. Third, we LOOK like we were on a FD after C/C'ing all the way to the river. Unless our image strongly supports that we are stealing I would make a bet that a J can't pass up and fold to a push. Probably ~2/3 pot.

[Elandriel]

9 would be fine, they probably are going to fold anyway. You could try to induce a bluff of the button with betting 2 or 3.

[demon102]

Fold or raise preflop then with this flop u can give a pot sized bet with lots of outs to come and lots of fold equity.

[ama0330]

<font color="blue">CLIFFNOTES: "LOLO U HAV FLUSH POOSH" isn't a good enough analysis in this spot.</font>

Sometimes I like to analyse hands really thoroughly and this is one of those hands.


[ QUOTE ]
9 would be fine, they probably are going to fold anyway. You could try to induce a bluff of the button with betting 2 or 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think they are going to fold. There is no way that 3 players call three streets and then fold the river when the draw hits. My first thoughts for our villains was that UTG+1 has a flush draw and that button either has a jack with a good kicker, a set (turned FH), or a flopped two pair which has boated. Take a look at the action -

Nobody raises preflop. Therefore I think that we can rule out hands like TT, and overpairs which arent really relevant anyway. What we can do is definitely put suited cards, high cards and small pocket pairs in the mix.

Okay on the flop, we have a donkbet by UTG+1, which almost always means "I hate my hand but I want to get to showdown". In this case I would say that its either a flushdraw, maybe a weak Jack, or some kind of mid pair. The point is, I'm not really worried about him.

So button raises us pretty big relative to the original bet. What does he have? Well the board is obviously drawy, and I think that he COULD have the FD, but I think he more likely doesnt have it but rather a hand that he likes and is trying to protect. I think that at best, he has a mid-Jack like JT, and at worst, he has a set. I think that two pair is also very likely given that he had odds to play just about any two on the button. J5s/J3s is certainly in his range. Some might say that the fact he has raised big means he has more than just a naked jack, but I think that whilst the pot is still relatively small, this play could definitley be something like ace jack.

So what does this say about our options for the flop? I think that on the first pass I will usually raise after UTG bets out minimum, because I feel like he has a hand which he is easily going to fold. The fact that there are 6 players to this flop also means that raising will:

: Thin the field
: Define our villains hands - we are playing a draw OOP and we need to know what our FE is likely to be
: Disguise OUR hand - as played our hand is very obvious.

The argument can be made that it is better to just call here as we are likely to get more money into the pot and we have the nut draw - but this leaves us open to difficult spots if we are raised from behind (like in this hand) and also puts us in a very tough spot if the board pairs and we are bet into (as in this hand). Also, and probably most importantly, with the call then overcall on this board we basically lay our hand face up on the table. This is never a good thing.

Okay but as played now. Given that we just called the donkbet, we are faced with the raise coming around second time. This is actually a fold based on pure pot odds, but given we are pretty deep still, we can justify it on implied odds. Id really like to see a raise on this flop somewhere as I think that draws really are +++EV when played aggressively but whatever. I think the biggest problem in this hand is a lack of definition and I will definitely raise this somewhere on the flop. Remember, at this point we still have no hand and it would be nice to take the pot now instead of having to improve.

The turn brings out the second Jack and UTG checks. This says to me that either he is about to c/r or he is on a draw, and I think that the overcall on the flop screams flush draw on this stage and that we have him drawing dead, so as far as I am concerned, he's dead money. Button is more problematic. Given the way we have played this hand (incorrectly IMO) our range for him is still very wide. So he bets $2 into a $6.60 pot, laying us about 4:1. This is exactly the odds you need to call for the FD so calling is a no brainer, but what does this mean for his range?

This bet is either pure genius or sheer stupidity. If villain has boated, he is laying us PRECISELY the odds we need to call for our FD, like he wants us to call. He wants to give us every chance to catch our flush whilst still getting the money in the pot. Brilliance. What else could this mean? If he had a Jack, why bet so small and let the FD in so cheap? Morons always bet bigger than this when they hit trips. The fact we have no reads makes this really difficult, but against a good layer, I am proceeding with extreme caution. Against a donkey, I'll still call, but I'll be a little more reckless if I hit. He is either very strong or very weak.

So we get to the river and we still don't know where we stand. Either we are way ahead of two flush draws or trip jacks, or crushed by a boat. The thing here is that the way we have played the hand, we genuinely have no idea. I think that just about the worst line we can possibly take here is to lead and fold to a push, the reason being that every smaller flush draw is going to push over this river. What if Button was just laying himself odds with his own heart draw, then pushes over us with the King high flush and we fold the best hand? Bad news.

If we bet, he pushes hands which beat us and calls hands which we beat. But if we bet, he is also likely to push smaller flushes, which we will have to fold - this is really bad. If he is a terrible player he may try and push over us with nothing or a Jack and again we fold the best hand.

If we check, what does he bet? Well he bets his FH of course, but he will also bet trip jacks after two checks (assuming he is unobservant), and will definitely bet smaller flushes. SO to guarantee ourselves a showdown in a pot in which we are wa/wb, we should check. If he checks behind and we win with the flush, the value we lose by not betting is, to my mind, more than compensated by the value LOST when we fold the best hand or lose our bet by being raised (and have to endure the indignity of not being able to see his hand at all).

Bottom line here is raise the flop and you won't have to endure any of this tough decision making. An argument could even be made for folding this preflop in EP at a FR table with no reads.

[MattsTheMan]

Close to Pot bet on river.

[Haplo]

I checked the river--unsure what to do. It was checked around. Button had AJ.

I'm starting to like the advice of a psb or 2/3 and fold to a push. Thanks.

[Haplo]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">CLIFFNOTES: "LOLO U HAV FLUSH POOSH" isn't a good enough analysis in this spot.</font>

Sometimes I like to analyse hands really thoroughly and this is one of those hands.


[ QUOTE ]
9 would be fine, they probably are going to fold anyway. You could try to induce a bluff of the button with betting 2 or 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think they are going to fold. There is no way that 3 players call three streets and then fold the river when the draw hits. My first thoughts for our villains was that UTG+1 has a flush draw and that button either has a jack with a good kicker, a set (turned FH), or a flopped two pair which has boated. Take a look at the action -

Nobody raises preflop. Therefore I think that we can rule out hands like TT, and overpairs which arent really relevant anyway. What we can do is definitely put suited cards, high cards and small pocket pairs in the mix.

Okay on the flop, we have a donkbet by UTG+1, which almost always means "I hate my hand but I want to get to showdown". In this case I would say that its either a flushdraw, maybe a weak Jack, or some kind of mid pair. The point is, I'm not really worried about him.

So button raises us pretty big relative to the original bet. What does he have? Well the board is obviously drawy, and I think that he COULD have the FD, but I think he more likely doesnt have it but rather a hand that he likes and is trying to protect. I think that at best, he has a mid-Jack like JT, and at worst, he has a set. I think that two pair is also very likely given that he had odds to play just about any two on the button. J5s/J3s is certainly in his range. Some might say that the fact he has raised big means he has more than just a naked jack, but I think that whilst the pot is still relatively small, this play could definitley be something like ace jack.

So what does this say about our options for the flop? I think that on the first pass I will usually raise after UTG bets out minimum, because I feel like he has a hand which he is easily going to fold. The fact that there are 6 players to this flop also means that raising will:

: Thin the field
: Define our villains hands - we are playing a draw OOP and we need to know what our FE is likely to be
: Disguise OUR hand - as played our hand is very obvious.

The argument can be made that it is better to just call here as we are likely to get more money into the pot and we have the nut draw - but this leaves us open to difficult spots if we are raised from behind (like in this hand) and also puts us in a very tough spot if the board pairs and we are bet into (as in this hand). Also, and probably most importantly, with the call then overcall on this board we basically lay our hand face up on the table. This is never a good thing.

Okay but as played now. Given that we just called the donkbet, we are faced with the raise coming around second time. This is actually a fold based on pure pot odds, but given we are pretty deep still, we can justify it on implied odds. Id really like to see a raise on this flop somewhere as I think that draws really are +++EV when played aggressively but whatever. I think the biggest problem in this hand is a lack of definition and I will definitely raise this somewhere on the flop. Remember, at this point we still have no hand and it would be nice to take the pot now instead of having to improve.

The turn brings out the second Jack and UTG checks. This says to me that either he is about to c/r or he is on a draw, and I think that the overcall on the flop screams flush draw on this stage and that we have him drawing dead, so as far as I am concerned, he's dead money. Button is more problematic. Given the way we have played this hand (incorrectly IMO) our range for him is still very wide. So he bets $2 into a $6.60 pot, laying us about 4:1. This is exactly the odds you need to call for the FD so calling is a no brainer, but what does this mean for his range?

This bet is either pure genius or sheer stupidity. If villain has boated, he is laying us PRECISELY the odds we need to call for our FD, like he wants us to call. He wants to give us every chance to catch our flush whilst still getting the money in the pot. Brilliance. What else could this mean? If he had a Jack, why bet so small and let the FD in so cheap? Morons always bet bigger than this when they hit trips. The fact we have no reads makes this really difficult, but against a good layer, I am proceeding with extreme caution. Against a donkey, I'll still call, but I'll be a little more reckless if I hit. He is either very strong or very weak.

So we get to the river and we still don't know where we stand. Either we are way ahead of two flush draws or trip jacks, or crushed by a boat. The thing here is that the way we have played the hand, we genuinely have no idea. I think that just about the worst line we can possibly take here is to lead and fold to a push, the reason being that every smaller flush draw is going to push over this river. What if Button was just laying himself odds with his own heart draw, then pushes over us with the King high flush and we fold the best hand? Bad news.

If we bet, he pushes hands which beat us and calls hands which we beat. But if we bet, he is also likely to push smaller flushes, which we will have to fold - this is really bad. If he is a terrible player he may try and push over us with nothing or a Jack and again we fold the best hand.

If we check, what does he bet? Well he bets his FH of course, but he will also bet trip jacks after two checks (assuming he is unobservant), and will definitely bet smaller flushes. SO to guarantee ourselves a showdown in a pot in which we are wa/wb, we should check. If he checks behind and we win with the flush, the value we lose by not betting is, to my mind, more than compensated by the value LOST when we fold the best hand or lose our bet by being raised (and have to endure the indignity of not being able to see his hand at all).

Bottom line here is raise the flop and you won't have to endure any of this tough decision making. An argument could even be made for folding this preflop in EP at a FR table with no reads.

[/ QUOTE ]

Strike what I said about betting and folding to a raise. Ama is right. There are too many hands we might have to fold to. Folding to the FH is the correct fold, but there are idiots out there who would push with trip jacks. And there is that smaller flush that could always be out there, and that person would be fairly likely to push all-in as well. The paired board scares me.

I stand with checking and calling most bets.

[wingchunflush]

The thing is if your scared of the paired board why call on the turn? I think you raise on the river. You called on the turn to hit your flush, the river was pretty much the best card in the deck for you. If you call a bet when the board pairs you have to bet here.