**uNL Concept of the week: Week 4, Valuebetting** [Archive]

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EMc

11-15-2006, 01:09 AM

NL is a complex game. We all know this. Sure, you get 2 cards, but the game is far more than just the 2 in your hand and the 5 on the board. For the next few weeks, uNL is going to have a concept of the week thread discussing a certain concept or theory in NL Hold'em.

In this thread you should post HH's showing situations where the concept was applied effectively as well as examples of poor usage of the concept. Also, please debate over various aspects of the concept and it's pro's and con's.
__________________________________________________ _________
We are going back to the good old fashioned basics here folks, plain and straight valuebetting. We've all taken our trips to 'valuetown' and haven taken many to 'valuetown'.

What is valuebetting?
Valuebetting is the practice of betting your hands for extraction of your opponents chips, essentially making money. Mathmatically speaking, Im pretty sure that valuebetting can be expressed in the function f(b)=w(b), where w= chance your hand is the best and b is the size of your bet, but its been a long time since calculus so if Pokey wants to math this up, go ahead.

Why Valuebet
You are playing this game with the objective to make money, no?

When to valuebet?
Simply put, you should be valuebetting when you feel you have the best hand, or that the valuebet function is positive. So if you feel that your TT is the best on a TTJAQ board (and if you don't, well then, too bad on you), you should be betting it for value. Value extraction can be done in many ways but the quickest and most effective is value betting.

Whats a thin valuebet\
Sometimes, we are presented with a situation were the bet has a low expectation. Sometimes its best to check, sometimes its best to bet. Its very player dependent. Against certain opponents what appears to be a thin valuebet is actually a big valuebet, and vice versa.

Biggest Problem Areas for valuebetting
The biggest problem area for valuebetting that uNL has is on later streets, usually the turn, but more specifically the river. On later streets the bets are usually bigger and as such have more importance. You should work on finding opportuinties based on experience and reads where you can get 1 more VB in on the river. A good example is TPG-MK. Against the right opponents, the river should be valuebet with AT or A9 when its only TP.
__________________________________________________ __________
Straight and simple ABC trip to valuetown.

Villain has 34/12ish stats over a limited sample, but doesn't seem to be that good of a player.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $.25/$.50
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $45.55
UTG+1: $20.87
Hero: $65.50
Button: $15.50
SB: $47.75
BB: $35.85

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG calls, 1 folds, Hero raises to $2.5 , 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $4, BB calls.

Turn: 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
BB checks, Hero bets $10

River: 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif ($33, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $20, BB Calls.

Results:
BB shows A /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif

Here I didn't have a great specific read but based on experiences with the player and stats I felt I was WA of his range. Remember that at uNL your unknown opponents are typically ace happy (think of when you have KK). When you see them get over-zealous with an ace, that can be one of the most profitable notes/reads on a player.

Jigsaws

11-15-2006, 01:33 AM

Okay, here's a few hands where I thought I made some thin value bets or shoves.

This first hand nicely demonstrates the stack-a-donk line as well.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

UTG ($24.50)
Hero ($102.80)
CO ($30)
Button ($82.25)
SB ($50.20)
BB ($34.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises to $2, CO calls $2, 2 folds, BB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($6.25) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $4.5, CO calls $4.50, BB folds.

Turn: ($15.25) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $11, Hero raises to $96.3, CO calls $12.50 (All-In).

River: ($135.05) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $135.05

Results below:
Hero has Kh Jc (two pair, kings and threes).
CO has 8c 8s (two pair, eights and threes).
Outcome: Hero wins $135.05.

In this hand, I had been fairly aggressive on the table so far, because there was a 2+2er in the BB when I was OTB. I shoved AK over his 3bet of my Button raise, for example. He folded, and though I didn't show, I did say I had AK in chat. All that made me think the donk at the table could be minraising me with nearly any piece of the board here.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (3 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

BB ($58.30)
Button ($26)
Hero ($89.60)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Button calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.5, 1 fold, Button calls $2.

Flop: ($5.50) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $4, Button raises to $8, Hero raises to $87.1, Button calls $15.50 (All-In).

Turn: ($116.10) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($116.10) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $116.10

Results below:
Button has Jd Qc (one pair, queens).
Hero has Ks Qs (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins $116.10.

In this hand, villain is just an incredibly aggro donk. The type where it's like... I have an overpair, I have the nuts.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

Hero ($50)
BB ($123.10)
UTG ($94)
MP ($49.50)
Button ($31.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG raises to $2.5, 2 folds, Hero calls $2.25, 1 fold.

Flop: ($5.50) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $2.5, Hero raises to $7, UTG raises to $11.5, Hero calls $4.50.

Turn: ($28.50) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $20, Hero raises to $36, UTG folds.

Final Pot: $84.50

carnivalhobo

11-15-2006, 05:10 AM

i cant stress how important vb'ing is in ss/micro nl.

netstorm

11-15-2006, 06:23 AM

How about the betsizing? When valuebetting TPTK against someone who overrates toppair, what is the best line to take ? Pot flop, 2/3 turn, 2/3 river? Or is it a different line.

Thanks for another great concept /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Jouster777

11-15-2006, 07:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i cant stress how important vb'ing is in ss/micro nl.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that when in doubt a VB is usually a good idea. However there are times to forego a VB too. I think this is a fairly straightforward spot where I should check behind on the river.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($8.70)
SB ($10.50)
BB ($9.95)
Hero ($34.85)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, BB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2.10) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.75, BB calls $1.75.

Turn: ($5.60) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3, BB calls $3.

River: ($11.60) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero?
I think I should check here. Villain has ~$4 left. If he has a straight or better A he's not folding at this point and if he's on a FD he's folding. Only thing that calls is 2-pair and I would have expected that it would go in on the turn with that.

...and yes, I probably did overplay my weak A on earlier streets.

sharkbitten

11-15-2006, 02:53 PM

Gotta bump.
This is too good. Keep up the good work.
/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Triggerle

11-15-2006, 04:58 PM

This is probably not optimally played as I moved up about 30 hands ago and don't have a feel yet for bet sizes/table dynamics. Also, I'm generally not too confident with TPTK hands. On the river I did think of this thread, though.

Ultimate Bet
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10./$0.25.
9 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Hero raises to $1.6, 4 folds, CO calls.

Flop: 9/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($4.05, 2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $2.25, CO calls.

Turn: 4/images/graemlins/club.gif ($8.55, 2 players)
CO checks, Hero checks.

River: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($8.55, 2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $3.75, CO calls.

Results:
Final pot: $16.05

matv

11-15-2006, 05:43 PM

Ultimate Bet
No Limit <a href="http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/?s=holdem">Holdem</a> Ring game
Blinds: $0.10./$0.25.
2 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
SB: $52.40
Hero: $24.30

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif
SB calls, Hero raises to $1, SB calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($2, 2 players)
Hero bets $1.25, SB calls.

Turn: A/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($4.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, SB checks.

River: J/images/graemlins/club.gif ($4.5, 2 players)
Hero is all-in $22.05, SB calls.

Results:
Final pot: $48.6

I feel this is the optimum way to play against someone who won't fold an A on this board. I will happily through away the call i may get from a flush or another pair to take this persons stack.

Shaddux

11-15-2006, 05:47 PM

Nice post.

mason55

11-15-2006, 05:49 PM

Value betting and hand protection on the flop. Villain is 50vpip and I have been abusing my button badly for the last 45 minutes. Even though it's a scary flop for top and bottom, I'm way ahead of his range, especially since he thinks I'm out of line. Results show you just how out of line he thinks I was and the crap that uNL players will call with.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $108.85
Hero: $63.25
Button: $47.85
SB: $69.20
BB: $65.05

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG folds, Hero raises to $2, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($4.5, 2 players)
SB bets $2, Hero raises to $11, SB calls.

Turn: T/images/graemlins/club.gif ($26.5, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $15, SB calls.

River: J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($56.5, 2 players)
SB bets $15, Hero raises all-in $35.25, SB calls.

Results:
Final pot: $127
Hero showed Td Kd
SB mucks Kc 5c

CaucasianAsian29

11-15-2006, 05:53 PM

Wow EmCWilliams-
In the first hand you showed, I usually check the turn. VB the river. Can you address pot control? Do the strong players on this board pick differn't sides some pro and some anti-pot control?

I obviously have alot of learning to do.

VorShot

11-15-2006, 06:27 PM

A simular hand...So you're saying the best line would be to bet here? ($4.60 left behind here on river.)

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $9.75
UTG+1: $13.65
CO: $9.65
VorShot: $10
SB: $5.15
BB: $7.80

Pre-flop: (6 players) VorShot is Button with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, VorShot raises to $0.55, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($1.85, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, VorShot bets $1.85, SB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: 4/images/graemlins/club.gif ($5.55, 2 players)
UTG checks, VorShot bets $3, UTG calls.

River: 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($11.55, 2 players)
UTG checks, VorShot...

kurto

11-15-2006, 06:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Wow EmCWilliams-
In the first hand you showed, I usually check the turn. VB the river. Can you address pot control? Do the strong players on this board pick differn't sides some pro and some anti-pot control?

I obviously have alot of learning to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know I'm not him but... I think the reason he played that hand that way is he knows his opponent is calling with weaker hands often enough that he's betting 3 streets for value.

Against a better or tighter player, it may be better to check the turn and bet the river.

(note I play full ring)... if I'm in a hand with someone who I know will call down with TP weak kicker or middle pair... I will bet all 3 streets. Or if there is a draw on the board, I'd rathar make them pay on the turn and check the river if anything scary hits (and they check it).

I find there are many calling stations who will call flop and turn bets then fold a river bet. Against these players all your value is on the first 2 streets.

EMc

11-16-2006, 03:15 AM

suggestions for next week?

netstorm

11-16-2006, 04:25 AM

My suggestion would be betsizing. I often want to be soo agressive that people seem to fold to my Pot sized raises. I could use a little help on that one

Spleen

11-16-2006, 05:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
My suggestion would be betsizing. I often want to be soo agressive that people seem to fold to my Pot sized raises. I could use a little help on that one

[/ QUOTE ]

I get confused as to when I want 2/3 or pt etc. also. I actually almost made a post about that tonight. A discussion on it would be cool.

CaucasianAsian29

11-16-2006, 06:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
suggestions for next week?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd like it on playing draws.

orange

11-16-2006, 06:22 AM

Here is one from a bit back. Villan is 2p2er. Disregard PF.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
orange: $200
UTG+1: $39.80
CO: $294.15
Button: $346.60
SB: $0
BB: $305.25

Pre-flop: (6 players) orange is UTG with T/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif
orange raises to $7, 2 folds, Button raises to $23, BB folds, orange calls.

Flop: Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($49, 3 players)
Button bets $35, orange calls.

Turn: 5/images/graemlins/club.gif ($119, 3 players)
Button checks, orange checks.

River: T/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($119, 3 players)
Button checks, orange bets $70, Button calls.

Results:
Final pot: $259
orange showed Tc Ac
Button mucks Ad Kc

I think that value betting is by far uNL players' biggest leak. You should always find value with hands like TPTK at these stakes, and betting 3 streets should be fairly standard. Now, value betting need not apply for only TP types of hands, but other hands as well.

Here is another hand that I got some extra value. Theres a flush, yeah, but my opponent was very loose and bad.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $279.30
UTG+1: $200
CO: $103.20
orange: $268.25
SB: $347.80
BB: $198.25

Pre-flop: (6 players) orange is Button with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
3 folds, orange raises to $7, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif ($15, 2 players)
BB checks, orange bets $12, BB calls.

Turn: 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($39, 2 players)
BB checks, orange checks.

River: J/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($39, 2 players)
BB bets $39, orange raises all-in $249.25, BB calls all-in $140.25.
Uncalled bets: $70 returned to orange.

Results:
Final pot: $397.5
orange showed Qc 9d
BB mucks Ad As

______y0

11-16-2006, 07:58 AM

Great read thanks for taken the time to post such things.

kerplunkNL

11-19-2006, 10:51 AM

Valuebetting 101:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($5.80)
MP ($31.80)
CO ($29.60)
Hero ($28.05)
SB ($24.75)
BB ($17.75)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, BB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2.10) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.5, BB calls $1.50.

Turn: ($5.10) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $4, BB calls $4.

River: ($13.10) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $12, BB calls $11.25 (All-In).

Final Pot: $36.35

Results in white below: 
BB has 4c Ad (two pair, aces and fives).
Hero has Ac Qs (two pair, aces and fives).
Outcome: Hero wins $36.35. 

 Villain will call here with any Ax 

edit: I should probably have bet more on the flop. Easier to get it all-in on later streets.

RobinX

11-19-2006, 12:29 PM

Prima Poker skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
9 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.4, MP3 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($1.25, 3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.2, CO folds, BB calls.

Turn: J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($3.65, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2, BB calls.

River: 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($7.65, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero ??

So this would be the ideal spot to valuebet? About 2/3 of the pot?

kerplunkNL

11-19-2006, 12:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Prima Poker skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
9 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.4, MP3 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($1.25, 3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.2, CO folds, BB calls.

Turn: J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($3.65, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2, BB calls.

River: 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($7.65, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero ??

So this would be the ideal spot to valuebet? About 2/3 of the pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is yeah. This board is so dry, he is probably not drawing to anything. So, he has got either a monster or Ax, IMO. I think you can profitable valuebet here.

poincaraux

11-19-2006, 10:04 PM

I learned a lot about valuebetting here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=ssplnlpoker&Number=413065 2&Searchpage=1&Main=4114439&Words=-Re%3A+poincaraux&topic=&Search=true#Post4130652). Dang, I need to reread that a few times.