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Borodog
11-13-2006, 09:56 PM
This afternoon I attended the Physics Department weekly colloquium, give by J. A. Rial on his work with M. Yang (both of UNC Chapel Hill) on modelling and predicting abrupt climate change.

A little background. Extremely accurate temperature data is available from both arctic and antarctic ice cores that go back hundreds of thousands (and in some cases millions) of years:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c153/Borodog/Ice_Core_Data.gif

The bottom trace is sea surface temperature (SST).

The question that needs to be answered is what causes the apparently chaotic-seeming switches between warm climate states and hot climate states, often characterized by sea surface temperature changes of up to 15 degrees C (almost 30 degrees F for us backward Imperial Americans) over extremely short time scales, sometimes as brief as 2 years (yes, the data is that well resolved).

The first thing you need to understand is that the Earth's climate is being forced, specifically by the sun, which is an energy input into the climate. The second thing that you need to know is that solar energy input is not constant, it varies over time due to purely celestial mechanical effects. The Earth's orbital eccentricity varies over time (since the Earth-sun system is not a true 2-body system), with a period of about 100,000 years. The Earth's axial tilt oscillates between about 21.5 degrees and 24.5 degrees, with a period of about 41,000 years. The direction of the axis of the Earth's rotation precesses with a period of 19,000 to 23,000 years.

All of these effects combine to make the amount of solar radiation received by the Earth ("insolation") vary in a very particular fashion:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c153/Borodog/insolation.gif

If you have the calibrated eye, like I fancy I do, you can convince yourself that you can already see a corelation between the ice core data and the insolation function. This is called Milankovich forcing.

In general, however, if you look at the power spectra of the data, most of the power is a a frequency that coresponds to a period of about 4,000 years. In other words, most of the climate variation seems to occur over periods of a few thousand years, which is much less than even the most rapid of the solar forcing terms (the precession term). Hence it has historically been the case that solar forcing has been dismissed as a cause for the climate variation, particularly the rapid shifts.

So, an internal climate model was developed to explain these short time scale oscillations (so-called Dansgaard-Oeschger, or DO oscillations), based on 3 things: sea ice coverage, thermo-haline circulation, and greenhouse gases (GHGs).

Sea ice plays an important roll in the Earth's climate. Ice is almost pure white; it is very reflective. When there is a lot of ice on the sea's surface, the Earth's relectivity goes (it's albedo) up, meaning more energy is reflected instead of absorbed into the climate system. Obviously there is the possibility of positive feedback: If the amount of sea ice increases, less energy is absorbed, the climate is cooler, and more ice can form. Vice versa, if the amount of sea ice decreases, more energy is absorbed, the climate is warmer, and ice can melt at a higher rate.

Thermo-haline circulation describes the the global "conveyor belt" of currents that runs throughout the world's oceans, sometimes running high in the ocean, sometimes deep, sometimes warm, sometimes cold, sometimes more dense, sometimes less. The details of the THC are beyond the scope of this post (or my understanding, for that matter), but suffice it to say that energy can be stored in the THC system until it becomes unstable, for example if cold, more dense water is above warm, less dense water. When this occurs the system can rapidly change state to a new equilibrium.

Greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide, methane, and water vapor can act to trap solar radiation in the atmosphere. Higher concentrations of these gases in the atmosphere may lead to a warmer climate. I emphasize may precisely because today's speaker did; which CO2 and methane concentrations are highly corelated with sea surface temperature in the data, nobody is sure which drives which; i.e. the direction of causality (and it may well go both ways, the perfect setup for an instability) is unknown.

So what Rial and Yang did was to model the climate as a set of coupled non-linear thermal oscillators, basically the sea ice, the THC, and GHG. They are coupled by the fact that the THC can have an effect on sea ice; for example if warm deep waters suddenly change state to become warm, shallow waters, the melt rate of sea ice can increase, and vice versa. Similarly, GHGs are coupled to sea water temperature, because when the water gets cold enough, CO2 uptake into the ocean accelerates, and vice versa.

The classic system of coupled oscillators is a system of masses connected with springs of differing stiffness. In this case, the oscillators are thermal, and model the behavior of the sea ice, the THC and GHGs with non-linear coupling between them. The model thus created is the so-called Saltzman-van der Pol Oscillator (SVO) model. It's a set of two non-linear coupled first order differential equations that represent the interaction between sea ice coverage, mean ocean temperature, and GHG concentrations. These can be transformed into a single second order non-linear differential equation that can be set equal to a term given by the Milankovich forcing (insolation).

In the absence of the Milankovich forcing from the insolation function described before, this model produces very periodic "shark fin" shaped climate oscillations. Note that these already resemble the general shape of the warm periods, cold periods, and sharp transitions in the ice core data:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c153/Borodog/unforce.gif

Notice that the main problem is that the climate is not nicely periodic like the model (and of course, the high frequency "noise" is not modeled accurately).

But what happens when you solve the model including the insolation function?

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c153/Borodog/forced.gif

This is probably the single most amazing result I have ever seen. A single 2nd order differential equation accurately reproduces the qualitative nature of global climate data for the past hundred thousand years, and to a large extent does a damn good job quantitatively as well. The high frequency behavior is still not modeled well. The model itself is very crude, particularly in its treatment of the carbon cycle (the GHG bit). But the corelation between the model and the data is undeniable.

Have a look at the model compared to the actual data for the last 25,000 years:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c153/Borodog/25k.gif

I can't stress enough that this corespondance between the data and such a simple model is absolutely AMAZING. The corespondance is even better according to Rial, who informed us that newer reconstructions of the most recent temperature data show a much bigger drop in the past 1000-2000 years, which is more in line with the model prediction.

Also, note at the very right hand side that the model predicts that we are currently in a period of abrupt climate change toward warmer climate (before another semi-glacial plunge, to be sure). Hence the model predicts that we would be in a period of rapid global warming even if mankind were still in the stone age.

Rial was quick to point out that any such prediction must be taken with a giant grain of salt. It is easy to dismiss the high frequency "noise" with hindsight in comparing the model to the data, but you can't do any such thing when you make predictions about near term future climate change, which is by definition in the short period/high frequency regime.

He also made it clear that the model does not take into account anthropogenic CO2, which has put atmospheric CO2 concentrations 1/3 higher than they have ever been according to the ice core data.

He finished up his talk by saying that they hope to increase the complexity and the accuracy of the model, particularly the carbon cycle, and they hope to be able to eventually accurately predict abrupt global climate change.

Amazing.

ojc02
11-13-2006, 10:51 PM
Holy balls, that truly is an astounding correlation between the model and the actual data. Wow.

Thank you greatly for that post Borodog! Awesome, awesome post.

Borodog
11-13-2006, 11:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
switches between warm climate states and hot climate states

[/ QUOTE ]

Bah. One of those is supposed to say "cool" or "cold". /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

madnak
11-13-2006, 11:04 PM
Have you looked at some of the data for continental drift?

Borodog
11-13-2006, 11:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Have you looked at some of the data for continental drift?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I've seen it. It's quite nice, particularly the twin paleomagnetism "fingerprints" on either side of the mid-Atlantic ridge.

I'm not sure I see the connection though . . . ?

madnak
11-13-2006, 11:22 PM
Oh, just how well the data fits the theory. Thought it was similar in that.

Borodog
11-13-2006, 11:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, just how well the data fits the theory. Thought it was similar in that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, I see. Yes, it is excellent agreement. And General Relativity has been shown to be accurate to 11 decimal places (or more these days). The standard model of quantum mechanics has never been wrong. But what impressed me about this was the way that a system of seeming near-infinite complexity like the climate could be accurately reduced to a single differential equation. Just unbelievable.

hmkpoker
11-13-2006, 11:50 PM
I had to read this a couple times, but it was very interesting.

MidGe
11-14-2006, 12:50 AM
Great and informative post!

Thanks Borodog.

CaseS87
11-14-2006, 02:01 AM
very interesting post, thank you. i had to read it twice to get it, some of the more technical terms im still clueless about.

hmkpoker
11-14-2006, 02:48 AM
Shouldn't Wacki be tearing you a new bung hole right about now? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Zeno
11-14-2006, 03:01 AM
Good stuff and great post. Reminds me of a glaciology class I took long ago where we learned about all of the parameters mentioned in the post. The Thermo-haline circulation is also very complex, as mentioned, and still poorly understood (deep ocean currents where just being studied when I took the class). The significance of this global oceanic phenomenon will become more apparent when more is known and the interactions with other global cycles better worked out, especially the carbon cycle.

Do Rial and Yang have an abstract out about this? Do they have a paper planned? Will they give a talk at say AGU this Winter or next Spring?

-Zeno

Zeno
11-14-2006, 03:30 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, just how well the data fits the theory. Thought it was similar in that.

[/ QUOTE ]


The classic paper on sea floor speading is by Vine and Mathews (1963), and is a staple in every basic Geology textbook. Explanation of Vine and Mathews (http://www2.gsu.edu/~geowce/file/magneticanomalies1.doc)


The term Plate Tectonics has replaced the older term Contential Drift, at least in the sense of and use for an overall theory of plate motions on the surface of the earth and the attend physcial phenomena (seismicty, volcanism, mountian building, etc) associated with such.

-Zeno

Hobbs.
11-14-2006, 04:05 AM
Eli Tziperman has argued in the past (and has shown with simple box models) that the dominate mechanism driving both the DO/Heinrich events and the 100k glacial cycles is what he's penned 'sea ice switching'. Below is a brief summary of their argument:

"This `sea-ice switch’ glacial cycle mechanism may be briefly described as follows. Consider an interglacial period as the beginning of a glacial cycle. As the land ice begins to grow from its minimum point, the ocean is ice free and the atmospheric and oceanic temperatures are rather mild. Snow accumulation over glaciers exceeds the ablation, melting and calving term, and therefore the ice sheets gradually grow. The resulting slow increase in land albedo slowly reduces the temperature of the atmosphere and of the ocean. After some 90 000 yr, when the atmosphere is sufficiently cooled and the high-latitude sea surface temperature reaches the freezing temperature, sea ice forms and expands very rapidly. The expansion of sea ice further increases the albedo, induces a further reduction in atmospheric temperature, and results in the creation of more sea ice (a positive feedback). In a few decades, a large sea-ice cover is created in the high atitudes. Sea ice stops growing when it insulates enough of the polar oceans from the cold atmosphere, reducing the air sea cooling that leads to the sea-ice formation. The sea-ice `switch’ is now turned to `on’.

At this stage, the average global temperature is lowest, sea-ice and land-ice sheet extents are maximal, and the system is at a glacial maximum. The low atmospheric temperature reduces the poleward atmospheric moisture flux to about half its maximum value. Similarly, the sea-ice cover limits the moisture extraction from the polar ocean and the corresponding snow accumulation over the land ice. As ablation, glacier melting, calving and run-off, being less sensitive to temperature, proceed as before, the glaciers start retreating. The albedo decreases again, and the atmospheric temperature rises slowly. This is the beginning of the termination stage of the glacial period. After some 5000-10 000 yr, the ocean warms sufficiently to allow the sea ice to start melting, again within a few decades, due to the sea ice-albedo feedback working this time to warm the atmosphere and ocean. The sea-ice switch is now turned to `on’, the temperature of both the atmosphere and the ocean increases, and the system has completed a full glacial cycle.”

Their mechanism for the shorter time scale DO events are outlined in their papers.

Li et al. 2005
Gildor and Tziperman, 2000a and 2000b
Gildor and Tziperman, 2003.

Phil153
11-14-2006, 05:10 AM
Interesting, but I think largely irrelevant to the discussion of the global warming threat. Firstly because it's a long term model. We're interested in the next 100-200 years. Secondly because the inflection points are sharp, and there's no accurate way to predict them on a century time scale. From what we know, we could start the descent into an ice age in the next second, or in 500 years. Completely useless. Thirdly because of a quote made by Feynman about number plates.

Unless something intelligent can be said about the relative magnitudes and timings of both events, I don't see much relevance to this data in the global warming debate.

Nielsio
11-14-2006, 07:39 AM
Do these whitecoats urge for increased state power in any way shape or form? Because that's the only consistent conclusion I've heard about the subject.

John Feeney
11-14-2006, 02:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting, but I think largely irrelevant to the discussion of the global warming threat. Firstly because it's a long term model. We're interested in the next 100-200 years. Secondly because the inflection points are sharp, and there's no accurate way to predict them on a century time scale. From what we know, we could start the descent into an ice age in the next second, or in 500 years. Completely useless. Thirdly because of a quote made by Feynman about number plates.

Unless something intelligent can be said about the relative magnitudes and timings of both events, I don't see much relevance to this data in the global warming debate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think it may have some future relevance if it's elaborated to address that, but as Borodog posted:

[ QUOTE ]
He also made it clear that the model does not take into account anthropogenic CO2, which has put atmospheric CO2 concentrations 1/3 higher than they have ever been according to the ice core data.

[/ QUOTE ]

As interesting as it is, unless I'm missing something (quite possible) that would indeed suggest it doesn't tell us much (and probably wasn't intended to) about the role or significance of anthropogenic global warming.

wacki
12-12-2006, 04:12 AM
Borodog, do you have the paper to this? You have the graphs, so I can only assume you have other material as well. Please post.

[ QUOTE ]
Hence the model predicts that we would be in a period of rapid global warming even if mankind were still in the stone age.

[/ QUOTE ]

An observational fact is that there have been no DO events during the Holocene. Stefan Rahmstorf and Eric Steig believe that we are in a permanently warm state. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't his model predict that a DO event should have occured during the holocene? It looks this way according to the last image you posted. If this is true then Rahmstorf's hypothesis that we are in a permanently warm state would be supported by this model.

wacki
12-12-2006, 04:56 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Shouldn't Wacki be tearing you a new bung hole right about now? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I do find borodog's statement:

[ QUOTE ]

"Higher concentrations of these gases in the atmosphere may lead to a warmer climate."

[/ QUOTE ]

rather silly. I mean that's like saying a ball may fall if you drop it off of the side of a building. The only part that's up for debate with greenhouse gases is the sensitivity. (And that part is under a decent amount of debate.) That being said, the boys at realclimate are rather confident that a DO event is not impacting our current situation. To describe the situation in their words "there is absolutely no evidence for it". See the blog post titled: Revealed: Secrets of Abrupt Climate Shifts @ realclimate.org.

Either way none of us have the paper so it's not worth saying much more. If there is anything worth talking about then the industry shills will trumpet the report on their blogs for sure. The only thing in this thread that shocked me is Hobbs's lack of response. He's the king expert here and he didn't even correct Borodog's questioning of greenhouse gases. I don't understand that.

wacki
02-10-2007, 04:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Borodog, do you have the paper to this? You have the graphs, so I can only assume you have other material as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Borodog, I've asked you once. I've asked you twice. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=9044712&page=0&vc=1) (where you shot me down) Now I'm asking you thrice. Please give me a link to the paper. I don't see both those authors on the same paper in this search:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=10...amp;btnG=Search (http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=rial+wang+Dan sgaard&btnG=Search)

And I'm not going to go hunting for it.

I advise you to read the sticky of this forum. I am sending you a PM.

m_the0ry
02-10-2007, 07:22 PM
pretty incredible post I have to admit. Like you said the question of causality is the only one that remains. We would need to collect data over a few thousand years to really tell if we are deviating from this periodic climate change. This is an incredibly important model though. A good question was raised, why is there no cold dip at the end of our graph (as the model predicts). If we make the very simplistic assertion that these effects are cumulative, doesn't this predict a warming of greater magnitude to come?

I, too, would like to see the original paper if you can find some way to get it onto the internet.

HeavilyArmed
02-10-2007, 08:15 PM
Nice post. I had previously felt certain that any global climate modeling would be a hopeless Charlie Foxtrot. Now it looks like little more than a hopeful, short period Charlie Foxtrot governed by a handful of equations (that I can no longer understand).

Could you move on to something a little more interesting (to me) like accretion disks?

BluffTHIS!
02-10-2007, 09:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Borodog, do you have the paper to this? You have the graphs, so I can only assume you have other material as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Borodog, I've asked you once. I've asked you twice. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=9044712&page=0&vc=1) (where you shot me down) Now I'm asking you thrice. Please give me a link to the paper. I don't see both those authors on the same paper in this search:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=10...amp;btnG=Search (http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=rial+wang+Dan sgaard&btnG=Search)

And I'm not going to go hunting for it.

I advise you to read the sticky of this forum. I am sending you a PM.

[/ QUOTE ]


wacki,

What's your deal? Are you threatening to delete his post/thread because he hasn't provided you with a source as per the sticky *to your satisfaction/standards*? He said in his OP that the info he was relating was from a colloquium, so he is providing a first hand sourcing. This seems to me to be enough and doesn't require him to find relevant papers upon which the colloquium may or may not have been based, especially as a colloquium could very well be based on both previous written research and research in progress.

Your trying to say he hasn't provided a source for his OP is like saying a reporter who reported on that same colloquium and wrote an article about same didn't provide a source either. The oral colloquium, which Boro has reported on, IS the source. Or are you making an accusation he made it up?

FWIW, I don't have a dog in this fight, although I find Boro's general arguments compelling as to whether something needs to be done or not. Nonetheless, I resent your trying to imply he made an unsourced scientific argument, when he attended a scientific colloquium and reported on same.

BluffTHIS!
02-10-2007, 09:39 PM
wacki,

BTW, after I made the above post, it took me TWO SECONDS to do a google search with the names of those 2 scientists + "climate" to come up with THIS LINK (http://www.geosci.unc.edu/faculty/rial/DOpaper2.pdf) in the first 3 results, which seems to contain the graphs Boro used.

<font color="red"> Insult deleted by Rduke55
</font>

Borodog
02-10-2007, 11:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Borodog, do you have the paper to this? You have the graphs, so I can only assume you have other material as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Borodog, I've asked you once. I've asked you twice. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=9044712&amp;page=0&amp;vc=1) (where you shot me down) Now I'm asking you thrice. Please give me a link to the paper. I don't see both those authors on the same paper in this search:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=10...amp;btnG=Search (http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=100&amp;hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;safe=off&amp;q=rial+wang+Dan sgaard&amp;btnG=Search)

And I'm not going to go hunting for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;rls=GGIH,GGIH:2006-51,GGIH:en&amp;q=rial+yang+climate

[ QUOTE ]
I advise you to read the sticky of this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="red"> Insult deleted by Rduke55
Seriously Borodog, grow up. </font>

[ QUOTE ]
I am sending you a PM.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you didn't.

BluffTHIS!
02-11-2007, 02:18 AM
Boro,

FWIW, your PM box was full when I tried to send you one letting you know about his post. So he could have tried after saying he was going to send you one, and not been able to send it as was the case with myself.

wacki
02-11-2007, 02:46 AM
[ QUOTE ]
wacki,

BTW, after I made the above post, it took me TWO SECONDS to do a google search with the names of those 2 scientists + "climate" to come up with THIS LINK (http://www.geosci.unc.edu/faculty/rial/DOpaper2.pdf) in the first 3 results, which seems to contain the graphs Boro used. Don't be such a lazy [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

When it comes to scientific journals I rarely use Google. I use pubmed, NCBI, google scholar, AGU search, PNAS, etc. I tried 5 or 6 searches and none of them returned an appropriate result. See my link above for one form of proof.

wacki
02-11-2007, 03:04 AM
[ QUOTE ]


wacki,

What's your deal? Are you threatening to delete his post/thread because he hasn't provided you with a source as per the sticky *to your satisfaction/standards*? He said in his OP that the info he was relating was from a colloquium, so he is providing a first hand sourcing. This seems to me to be enough and doesn't require him to find relevant papers upon which the colloquium may or may not have been based, especially as a colloquium could very well be based on both previous written research and research in progress.

Your trying to say he hasn't provided a source for his OP is like saying a reporter who reported on that same colloquium and wrote an article about same didn't provide a source either. The oral colloquium, which Boro has reported on, IS the source. Or are you making an accusation he made it up?


[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all. He posted graphs/images. If he can post images/graphs he can tell us where he got them so we can analyze them in context. This is a science forum and should be held up to a higher standard than the politics forum. In science we make sure everyone has our sources. In science we make sure people can analyze our data. In the politics forum there are many posters that refuse to give their sources. Some people do this for deception purposes. Some people do that because they want to make it difficult for you to check their data. Others are simply lazy. Whatever the case is that simply will not be tolerated here. The SMP is generally low maintenance but I pushed Matt Sklansky to add Rdukke as a mod so there would be some form of a check and balance in this forum. Both he and I agree in the basic principle of sourcing your info. It really isn't that much to ask. If you can't follow that simple task then you shouldn't be posting here.

-had a lot of makers mark tonight so forgive my spelling

wacki

Metric
02-11-2007, 05:28 AM
Truly beautiful posting, Boro -- thanks!

AvivaSimplex
02-11-2007, 01:00 PM
I'm also impressed that a fairly simple model appears to predict quite a bit of the temperature data. It seems that if anything, this model supports the idea that anthropogenic CO2 will cause global warming.

1. Model shows large natural changes in climate over a period when humans could not have influenced the atmosphere.

2. One of the three inputs to this model is greenhouse gas levels.

3. Fossil fuel use has substantially increased the levels of CO2.

It seems that if you believe this model, you must conclude that rising CO2 will continue to warm the planet. Moreover, this temperature change may happen in an alarmingly nonlinear fashion.

Borodog
02-11-2007, 01:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Boro,

FWIW, your PM box was full when I tried to send you one letting you know about his post. So he could have tried after saying he was going to send you one, and not been able to send it as was the case with myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I realized this after the fact. My inbox was at 209, but for some reason I had 1 in my sent box (no idea why it randomly saved exactly 1 of my sent PMs), which put it at the 210 limit. I deleted a few.