A read, an accidental induced play at the pot and calling thin...

[kurto]

FULL RING - $25 Full Tilt.

This hand has everything.

The player was not good. Tight enough out that he's not playing completely random stuff out of position. A little overly aggressive post flop. And he's playing with less then half a stack so I have no respect.

Hero- $38
Villain- $12

Villain is UTG+2. He limps.
One caller.
Hero is in the CO with pocket 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and I raise it to $1.25.

blinds fold. Villain calls. Other limper folds.

FLOP ($3.1)
2 /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Villain Checks. Hero bets $1.25. Villain called.

<font color="blue"> Here's the thing. I accidentally underbet the pot. I consistantly would bet 3/4-pot on the flop if I'm going to bet. I immediately thought it looked strange. I said to myself, "he now thinks I have overs... if no ace or King hits, he will make a play at the pot." (I'm not saying I'm ahead. Simply that because of my flop bet I expect a play whether he has it or not </font>

TURN ($5.60)
9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Villain checks. Hero bets $3. Villain pushes ($9.5) total.

Hero has to call, right?

[degenrat]

i fold here. We have no draw, basically the only hand we beat is a complete bluff.

I don't think a villain is bluffing here enough to call. even with the almost 3-1 odds we are getting.

a plus of playing a shortstack smart, is people callign with weak holdings. don't call based on his stack. if a $50 makes this bet you fold right?

[kitaristi0]

Check the turn. Fold as played. Sometimes check the flop.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
i fold here. We have no draw, basically the only hand we beat is a complete bluff.

I don't think a villain is bluffing here enough to call. even with the almost 3-1 odds we are getting.

a plus of playing a shortstack smart, is people callign with weak holdings. don't call based on his stack. if a $50 makes this bet you fold right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it depends on the player. Calling oversized bets to the right player is often very profitable.

So... no one felt that I induced his play here?

[degenrat]

i don't think a CRAI is anything like an overbet. I think it is a different animal all together. if he open pushes that's different. he didn't do that though.

[kurto]

I guess its difficult to express in a post a read. I felt so strongly that the second I underbet the flop that I knew exactly what was going to happen. Because of that, I felt I had to call.

And I should say- the fact that its a shortstack at a $25 table is significant. They will do this with all sorts of crap.

I would be curious what range of hands you would put the villain on based on (1) $25 table (2) no raise PF (3) called a raise (4) shortstack player (5) I believe I gave some other minor reads (not so good... overly aggressive postflop at times)

I was actually hoping to get a discussion about doing this ON PURPOSE. I kind of thought this was a good flop in that its not likely to have hit too many people. Underbetting the flop (ie showing weakness) will cause MANY people to try to take it away from you. This is a decent way to manipulate players. We don't have to do this with just the nuts, no?

[Befolder]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess its difficult to express in a post a read. I felt so strongly that the second I underbet the flop that I knew exactly what was going to happen. Because of that, I felt I had to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't make the mistake that the villain thinks on as many levels as you do. You've told us what you think when someone acts as you did on the flop. Don't assume a villain does.

[kurto]

Villain shows 55

MHIG

I'm fine with the fact that most people thought it was a fold.

Regarding thinking the opponents don't think on as many levels, I have semibluffed at pots with hands like his depending on my read based on their betsizing. I guess I got somewhat lucky that his hand was as weak as it was... but,.. it still leaves me with a theory question-

Sometimes your opponent is going to read you for being weak. Its quite common that people will put you on overcards and call down/bet into you light when they stick with their read. The question is how does one determine when to call light and when to give up? (as always... I've folded TPTK to tight good players and called down big bets with middle pair against LAGs.) I'm certain that a lot of money is left to be made in figuring out when to make calls like this.

[degenrat]

it's all feel/read dependant. i have no problem folding trips to some players while reraising with air against others.

you got your desired result here so you were correct.

[Marshall28]

i dont hate your flop bet, i actually didnt think it was particularly bad ... had it been like 2 or even 1.75 i think thats a normal bet i would make at this flop.

why?



mainly because a small bet looks like u have a jack .. it looks like u want a call. in general a bet this small doesnt mean that, but when the board is paired w/ a high card, like in this example, and the 3rd card is low w/ no obvious draw ... it really just looks like u have a jack and you dont think someone will call a normal sized bet.

imo this villain is dumb for making this play w/out a jack, i fold turn.

[Waingro]

Ok if you had read I say go with it. Sometimes at the table you just know what the right line is. You are basically digesting a lot of different information that you have observed about your villain. I say going with your gut in situations like this is seriously +EV. And it doesn´t look that bad at the face of it. So many villains hate folding flops like that no matter what their cards.