flat calling

[bk1]

I am just curious about pre-flop play.

It is generally acceptable that raise and re-raise with big hand in position is correct.

But, how about just flat calling raise in position.

The reasoan behind is that if you hit nothing with your big hand, then you are screwed; you become slave to the big pot.

And, I think it is possible to bluff your opponents, if he check and you raise.

Flat calling is just bad?

It is always correct to raise and re-raise with big hands?

[Vern]

Because people miss the flop more than they hit. You cannot take down a pot with a cbet if you flat call.

That said, it is never right to always do the same thing with big hands.

[bk1]

so, the purpose of pre-flop raise is to c-bet.

How about just flat call in position and if your opponent checks, then you bet?

would it be sufficient to bluff him out of the pot?

[Vern]

You are talking about cold calling versus re-raising. Re-raising keeps you in control of the pot and gets money in while you are ahead. The majority of hands don't hit the flop so the player in control gets a larger pot on the flop with the c-bet. There is also the chance that the re-raise will get someone to fold that already has money in the pot, dead money, and the pot is already raised, you want to reduce the number of opponents to increase your chance of winning it. Last but not least, the larger the pot on the flop, the harder it will be fore hands you bet to get away. You just have to not fall into the same trap more frequently than your opponents.

[bk1]

now I understand

thanks.

[Perk76]

Reraising instead of calling helps your decisions post flop, and can take down pots preflop. Reraising also can mask your hand (assuming you can reraise with other hands than AA or KK), and masked hands win large pots postflop, and can be easy to get away from on bad boards. Reraising often will force players to your right to tighten up their raising standards a bit also helping narrow their range for you to make decisions on.

[Phytopath]

Cold calling isn't bad, and needs to be used in different situations.

I'm not sure what you consider a big hand though, but in reality you should not do the same thing ALL the time.

[Wolfram]

[ QUOTE ]
The majority of hands don't hit the flop so the player in control gets a larger pot on the flop with the c-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Last but not least, the larger the pot on the flop, the harder it will be fore hands you beat to get away.

[/ QUOTE ]
In a reraised pot, either:
(a) it's easier to take it down with a c-bet, or
(b) your opponent has a harder time folding because of pot size.

Pick one. You can't have it both ways.

Personally I believe 3bets in position are good with all sorts of hands because they'll instantly put you on QQ+/AK+ and you'll have tons of FE on the flop. There are very few opponents that realize that you are willing to 3bet with suited connectors or middle pocket pairs.

However, I don't like automatically 3-betting pf with hands such as AKs or JJ if we have position. The whole point of position is to use it to outplay your opponent post-flop, and a 3bet pot ususally gets so big so fast (in short stack, <100BB poker) that you don't have any room for outplaying.

The only bad thing about flat calling with AK or JJ is that our hand is most likely best (6max) and we're losing a bit of value by not raising our best hand. But most of the time this is offset by the value we gain by good post-flop play.

Out of position is a whole different story. You don't like playing drawing hands like AK or easily overcarded hands like JJ oop, so just 3bet that mutha and try to take it down. If they call, then no biggie 'cause your hand has a ton of equity. Just proceed carefully.

[Vern]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The majority of hands don't hit the flop so the player in control gets a larger pot on the flop with the c-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Last but not least, the larger the pot on the flop, the harder it will be for<font color="red">e</font> hands you beat to get away.

[/ QUOTE ]
In a reraised pot, either:
(a) it's easier to take it down with a c-bet, or
(b) your opponent has a harder time folding because of pot size.

Pick one. You can't have it both ways.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for correcting my late night typo, always appreciated /images/graemlins/wink.gif BTW you missed fixing the silent "e" on the end of the word "fore".

Actually, it is both ways, as each is true against different opponents. Note, I qualified the second one with the fact you are ahead.

Against weak/tight players, the 3bet pre-flop will either win the pot pre-flop or put dead money in it when they fold. If they stay, a c-bet will win the pot the majority of the time because the majority of the time the weak/tight player will have missed the flop or is willing to fold bottom/middle/PP. The c-bet does not depend on you actually hitting the flop when used against weak/tight players.

Against a calling station that takes his hands too far, the 3bet gets more money in while you are ahead and the larger pot tends to keep them in the hands post flop chasing the money they already put in. Against calling stations, I c-bet less frequently and value bet when I hit the flop. They rarely fold with any part of the flop so a c-bet has nearly zero fold equity against their bottom, middle, or PP.

The one thing that a 3bet does do for both is it reduces the number of players seeing the flop. Then you are less likely to have both a weak/tight &amp; calling station with you on the flop. That makes the flop play selection a lot easier.

There are many reasons to do different things with the same hand, or at least do the same thing for different reasons.

[bk1]

I did not mean cold calling.

When your opponent raises you pre-flop, and you are on the button and have hands like AK or AQ.

Is it ok to just flat call and see what the flop bring you.

[pokerchap]

simple rule: raise with the best hand.

[Phytopath]

[ QUOTE ]
I did not mean cold calling.

When your opponent raises you pre-flop, and you are on the button and have hands like AK or AQ.

Is it ok to just flat call and see what the flop bring you.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is cold calling, and it is okay..but it depends on stack sizes and your opponents. If they won't fold anything and or call way too much on the flop you are better off keeping the pot small and value betting them when you hit something. If players fold to CBs alot then you should be 3 betting more.

[Vern]

Cold calling is calling an opponents pre-flop raise.

Example, you are CO and MP opens to 4xBB. You have KQs and decide to just call MP's raise. That is cold calling.

If instead you mean that you raised first and your opponent re-raised you, that is not cold calling and if it was what you were discussing has not really been addressed in any of the response I think.

[bk1]

thanks for enlightenment

[bk1]

ok thanks.

[bk1]

is it correct to flat call with suited connector?

for example,

your opponent raise and you are sure he has AK or AQ.

now you are on the button and see suited connector.

because you are in position and has a lot of implied odds, I think it is correct play.

If flop comes three babies, you are more likely to connect with that flop than your opponent.

[Nologo]

It's player dependent. If you're playing against someone with an extremely tight open-raising range, you'd be better off just calling. If you're against someone who raises with a wide range (but not a total maniac), it's a good spot to 3-bet light.

[TyFuji]

Simple rules are often not enough. Even though this is uNL, if you're playing against a thinking player, you need to mix up your play and adapt it for different situations. I think I raise instead of cold-calling (with AK at least) most of the time just for value, but it may often be correct to just call (if, for example, you think your opponent will pay you off with AQ on an A-high flop). I'm more inclined to call when my hand plays well multi-way, like AKs, because of the chance that you'll be playing 3 or 4 handed because of the players to act behind you. In general, the best strategy is to just raise, but you can't be successful against good players if you do the same thing all the time.

[Nologo]

AK doesn't play very well in multi-way pots. I re-raise with AK probably 90% of the time.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

step 1) coldcall with aces/kings in the blinds
step 2) checkraise turn
step 3) proflcopter up up and away

[Wolfram]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for correcting my late night typo, always appreciated BTW you missed fixing the silent "e" on the end of the word "fore".

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't being a spelling Nazi. I did it for clarification.
The following two sentences have totally different meanings:

*Last but not least, the larger the pot on the flop, the harder it will be for hands you bet to get away.

*Last but not least, the larger the pot on the flop, the harder it will be for hands you beat to get away.

I just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing.

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, it is both ways, as each is true against different opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against weak/tight players, the 3bet pre-flop will either win the pot pre-flop or put dead money in it when they fold. If they stay, a c-bet will win the pot the majority of the time because the majority of the time the weak/tight player will have missed the flop or is willing to fold bottom/middle/PP. The c-bet does not depend on you actually hitting the flop when used against weak/tight players.

Against a calling station that takes his hands too far, the 3bet gets more money in while you are ahead and the larger pot tends to keep them in the hands post flop chasing the money they already put in. Against calling stations, I c-bet less frequently and value bet when I hit the flop. They rarely fold with any part of the flop so a c-bet has nearly zero fold equity against their bottom, middle, or PP.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good point. Thanks for the explanation.

[Wolfram]

[ QUOTE ]
AK doesn't play very well in multi-way pots. I re-raise with AK probably 90% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is actually a big misunderstanding. AK (especially suited) plays just fine in multi-way pots. You usually have the best pair with the best kicker or if you flop a draw it is always a draw to the nuts.

However, you do increase your equity by raising AKs and getting it heads up. That's why we 3bet if there is a raise and multiple callers.

The big problem with playing AK multiway is that people usually go nuts when they hit TPTK and that is not the right way to play. Either raise it up and get it HU, or play it for a super strong draw and carefully if you hit TPTK.