NL25 6max FT QJs flops middle pair

[Hellmouth]

Just sat down and villian had a substantial stack. Normally I don't like to get involved with marginal hands in the first orbit or two.

I really feel like I mangled this hand. I cbet the flop and have no idea where I am on the turn so I check for pot control. It seems like villian sensed weakness and decided to take the pot away.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (6 players) hellmouth is Button with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">hellmouth raises to $1</font>, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($2.1, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">hellmouth bets $1.7</font>, BB calls.

Turn: T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($5.5, 2 players)
BB checks, hellmouth checks.

River: 9/images/graemlins/club.gif ($5.5, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $4</font>, hellmouth folds.
Uncalled bets: $4 returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: $5.5

Is this the standard default play on an unknown?

[Hellmouth]

Looking at villians possible hands now.

KQ easily beats me and might play this way on the turn checking to try for a check raise.

Any A also plays this similarly.

Finally villian might be on a busted flush draw and guessed that he can steal the pot based on my turn weakness.

Greg

[Vern]

I think the river bet is too big to call with second pair on this board. The ace hurts, the two straights hurt worse, I just cannot call a 3/4PSB on the river here with that holding.

[CaucasianAsian29]

I'm really interested in this hand as well. This is how I normally play it, but don't know if it's the best way to play. I'm considering some type of small blocking bet on the turn?

[Hellmouth]

A different hand where I play a similar line and feel now like I was just giving away $$$.

I am not sure I can call this bet even with the odds because I feel behind too often. Is this a bad fold?

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (6 players) hellmouth is UTG+1 with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">hellmouth raises to $1.25</font>, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG folds.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($2.85, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">hellmouth bets $2</font>, BB calls.

Turn: 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($6.85, 2 players)
BB checks, hellmouth checks.

River: T/images/graemlins/club.gif ($6.85, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $2</font>, hellmouth folds.
Uncalled bets: $2 returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: $6.85

[pokerchap]

hand1- i think it is the best way to play it. anything 1/2 pot or less im usually calling here.

hand 2- although he is betting less than 1/3 pot, you beat nothing here. good fold imo.

[orange]

QJs, I sometimes check these flops. No real need to bet. If you think about it, heart/Ace/sometimes other stuff nearly always call a bet. And after we check the turn, how do we narrow his range when he bets with the ace on the river and how often he bets a bluff like missed hearts? something to think about.

hand 2: looks fine.

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
QJs, I sometimes check these flops. No real need to bet. If you think about it, heart/Ace/sometimes other stuff nearly always call a bet. And after we check the turn, how do we narrow his range when he bets with the ace on the river and how often he bets a bluff like missed hearts? something to think about.

hand 2: looks fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

So are you saying that with the scary board in hand one, it is worth not c-betting because on the turn if he checks again we can take it to showdown confidant that he doesn't have an ace?

I am not sure that I totally get your point orange, but I feel it might be a valuable tidbit.

Greg

[orange]

well, yeah, if we bet, his range is still extremely large (any hearts/ace/some sort of draw). we are going to check one of these streets (most likely), usually the turn. so instead of checking the turn, why not check the flop? kind've the same idea here:

you raise pf w. Ax on the button, bb calls. flop comes A74r, he checks, you should generally check behind here too. same type of thing here (though this board is my wetter than the example of A74r).

i'd actually prefer having a drier board for checking these flops, but nonetheless, i still check here sometimes. not saying always, but yeah.

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
well, yeah, if we bet, his range is still extremely large (any hearts/ace/some sort of draw). we are going to check one of these streets (most likely), usually the turn. so instead of checking the turn, why not check the flop? kind've the same idea here:

you raise pf w. Ax on the button, bb calls. flop comes A74r, he checks, you should generally check behind here too. same type of thing here (though this board is my wetter than the example of A74r).

i'd actually prefer having a drier board for checking these flops, but nonetheless, i still check here sometimes. not saying always, but yeah.

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes a lot of sense. I am assuming we want a drier board so that not many cards can muddle the picture on the turn and we are more confidant that we didn't give a free card to a draw that may now have come in?

Greg

[Check_The_Nuts]

orange, I have questions:

Whats your cbet frequency? What type of hands do you check on the flop? What type of hands do you bet on the flop?

I'll give what I do now, to you give a better idea of what I'm asking:

On the flop I cbet TP2K+/2pair+/Weak Draws+(on non-scary board). I cbet underpairs to the board about 30% of the time, dependant on the board (If I hit my set on the turn, the chances of me stacking a worse hand that will slowplay flop).

I check middle pair and worse/low boards more often/boards with two high cards (Like AJx, KJx, as given in examples here).

I bet ~40% of all flops. Check ~40% of all flops. Is this too low? This is over 18k hands. Call/fold approx 10%, raise 6%.....