3 betting question.

[wcaines]

When making an opening pre flop raise, I understand that the "standard" is 4BB + 1 for each limper. Is there a similar "standard" for figuring out the correct amt for reraising preflop also accounting for cold callers? Also post flop, if I want to make a PS reraise, do I add the size of the pot to the original bet or just make my bet the size of the pot? How do I account for cold callers in this situation as well?

Thanks for any help.

[Freelancer]

I just mash the pot button at full tilt...Although its a good idea to raise more than the pot when your oop. (pot is about 3x his raise)

[Marshall28]

a lot of people dont get this ...

your 3bet should be 4x the initial raise because if u only make it 3x you are generally giving smaller PP too good implied odds to make the call and draw to a set and stack you.. thats the worst thing you can do in this situation.. DONT GIVE THEM THE ODDS TO DO IT.

[avfletch]

[ QUOTE ]
a lot of people dont get this ...

your 3bet should be 4x the initial raise because if u only make it 3x you are generally giving smaller PP too good implied odds to make the call and draw to a set and stack you.. thats the worst thing you can do in this situation.. DONT GIVE THEM THE ODDS TO DO IT.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is excellent advice but I'd just like to add that you need to add on for callers just like you would for limpers. Additional callers bloat the pot and encourage further calls.

[Xanta]

[ QUOTE ]
I just mash the pot button at full tilt...Although its a good idea to raise more than the pot when your oop. (pot is about 3x his raise)

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard this going around quite a bit, but I'd like to clarify my understanding of this point.

Playing raised pots OOP suck. However, by raising larger than the pot preflop, we minimize our disadvantage because we basically are left with one or two decisions on the flop because of the size of our remaining stack relative to the pot size. This minimizes the positional advantage that our opponent has over us because he has few decisions with which to use his advantage and consequentially can't make the most of it.

By this logic, if you were playing fairly deep stacked, say 200bbs deep, 3-betting large preflop OOP would be a very bad idea because we no longer have just a pot sized bet left on the flop and we're in a tough spot first to act on the flop.

Sound relatively sane?

[RobinX]

Yup makes a lot of sense. You are so right about playing pots, especially raised pots OOP. I wouldn't recommend anyone to do it /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[HitNRunPoster]

While everything you said is true, a PSRR will not prevent a baby pocket from getting correct odds unlesss you start the hand with less than 54bb.

[Marshall28]

25$ effective stacks ... someone opens to 1.25 .... you re-raise to (1.25x4) = 5. villains implied odds = 3.75 - 20. that reduces to 5.3333 - 1 ... odds of flopping a set .. 8 - 1

i think that does it.

and i like what xanta said.

[wcaines]

Thanks for the replies. I had a feeling I was getting this wrong. I was raising 3x the origianl raiser. Just to be clear. If utg raises to 3xbb, utg+1 calls, and it folds to me on the button, I should make it 15xbb as a standard reraise. Is this right? Also what % of my stack would that 15bb need to be before pushing would factor more heavily into my thinking? 1/3, 1/2? I would imagine I should be more inclined to push OOP of course. Also is 4x+ the original bettor correct on the flop as well?
Thanks again.

[Marshall28]

umm ... 15bb is a bit much ... id make it 12 or so ...

this is a situation where its crucial to examine the size of your opponents stacks and the odds that you are willing to give them.

just look at how much they have in their stack and how much they are going to have to call if you decide to raise .. whatever u do make sure they are not getting better than 8-1 on a call when u make that raise.

as for the percentage of your stack before pushing ... id really just think of it like this ... if after your initial bet .. if you have enough left to induce a fold when u push on the flop, then thats fine ... but if you dont think your opponent will be able to fold ATC hes calling w/ PF on the flop .. .then you should just push.

and on the flop ... the same logic does not apply because you no longer are worried about the implied odds you are giving him, a good portion of your stacks are in the middle already... and if you are talking about an unraised pot where u want to re-raise on the flop ... you need to make sure you arent sizing your bets so big that they are only folding out worse hands and getting calls from better ones.

if this isnt too clear let me know i will try to explain more succinctly ...

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
25$ effective stacks ... someone opens to 1.25 .... you re-raise to (1.25x4) = 5. villains implied odds = 3.75 - 20. that reduces to 5.3333 - 1 ... odds of flopping a set .. 8 - 1

i think that does it.

and i like what xanta said.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, firstly, it's 3.75 : 26.6 =~ 7.09:1, not 5.3:1.

However, you're correct that this is enough to make them lose to you, particularly since sometimes they will hit a set and lose to an overset or turned/rivered set.

However, a raise to $5 from $1.25 is overbetting the pot.

A pot-sized reraise is: $4.1 to go (a raise of $2.85), IN GENERAL (i.e. unless you're raising out of the blinds, in which case, you would raise even less than this amount if you were making a pot-sized reraise.

Therefore, at the 25nl, a psrr would give you 2.85:26.6 = 9.3:1.

However, yes, my original math was way the f- off, so thanks. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I now realize that when you make a psrr you need pretty close to a full buy in to make someone get correct odds to call you with an underpair.

Thanks man.