50NL 6Max - When not to cbet heads up [Archive]

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redCashion

11-12-2006, 03:59 PM

Right now I am cbetting virtually 100% of the time when heads up, and I think I need to find situations where it is not correct to cbet. With a hand like this for example, the only thing I am beating is a low pocket pair. I am investing 8.50 to win 4.50, so I need to be correct more than 2/3 of the time on a given flop for it to be profitable, correct? On a flop like this, do you check the flop with TT?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

Hero ($49.45)
BB ($32.50)
UTG ($19.95)
MP ($51.10)
Button ($60.20)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, MP calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50, Hero raises to $3, 1 fold, UTG calls $2.50, MP folds, Button folds.

Flop: ($7.50) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $5.5

Shaddux

11-12-2006, 10:12 PM

Reads?

Reid L

11-13-2006, 01:45 AM

I always cbet heads up. I hate being in situations where I cant cbet. Still, there are plenty of situations where I'm not thrilled about doing it but I do it anyway. For example, If ive been raising a lot PF and a certian villian is starting to get the idea of what I'm doing and plays back at me. I still cbet against him, in fact, I do it gladly, even though I know he will more often than not play back at me. This sets me up huge for later when I do have the hand. When you cbet so often people give you NO credit, even when you play back at them they just figure youre getting tired of being reraised out of pots. cbets are great for so many reasons, even if they get picked off from time to time, it sets up your image.

Epple

11-13-2006, 01:50 AM

Definitely not checking it here, otherwise he will automatically bet and take you off your hand.

UTG check and call usually means a low pocket pair.

Gravy

11-13-2006, 01:53 AM

Honestly I think preflop is marginal given the number of limpers. JJ+ I think is a definite raise but I think TT is borderline.

ghostface

11-13-2006, 01:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly I think preflop is marginal given the number of limpers. JJ+ I think is a definite raise but I think TT is borderline.

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise 88 there.

Gravy

11-13-2006, 01:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly I think preflop is marginal given the number of limpers. JJ+ I think is a definite raise but I think TT is borderline.

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise 88 there.

[/ QUOTE ]

quick hijack

How about big cards? Are you raising AQo there? AJs/ATs? KQs?

jgunnip

11-13-2006, 06:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Right now I am cbetting virtually 100% of the time when heads up, and I think I need to find situations where it is not correct to cbet. With a hand like this for example, the only thing I am beating is a low pocket pair. I am investing 8.50 to win 4.50, so I need to be correct more than 2/3 of the time on a given flop for it to be profitable, correct? On a flop like this, do you check the flop with TT?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

Hero ($49.45)
BB ($32.50)
UTG ($19.95)
MP ($51.10)
Button ($60.20)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, MP calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50, Hero raises to $3, 1 fold, UTG calls $2.50, MP folds, Button folds.

Flop: ($7.50) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $5.5

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, if what you say is true and that the only thing you c-bet here are low PPs how likely is it that this villan knows that. Very low

Second, if you're not c-betting AQ+ here or your sets against full stacks oop then you are not getting enough value from your hands.

However if you're reffering to the fact that villan has just $16 behind and you're trying to get him to commit it all, then you'd need a read. But generally I'm c-betting, people push jacks here.

redCashion

11-13-2006, 07:22 PM

"First of all, if what you say is true and that the only thing you c-bet here are low PPs how likely is it that this villan knows that. Very low"

I don't think you read my post properly, I said I cbet just about 100% of the time, but was wondering if I should look for opportunities to not cbet when heads up. It seemed to me that this flop would have hit alot of people, and I was wondering if this is a case of a good place not to cbet. The consensus seems to be "cbet away regardless of board texture when heads up" so I"ll continue to do that.

VorShot

11-14-2006, 12:30 AM

Heads up, fire. You're range includes an ace.

My favorite, when i turn the card i need.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $6.20
UTG+1: $2.20
CO: $8.10
Button: $9.05
SB: $6.45
VorShot: $10

Pre-flop: (6 players) VorShot is BB with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, VorShot raises to $0.5, UTG+1 folds, Button calls, SB folds.

Flop: 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($1.2, 2 players)
VorShot bets $1.2, Button calls.

Turn: J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($3.6, 2 players)
VorShot bets $3, Button calls.

River: A/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($9.6, 2 players)
VorShot bets $5, Button calls all-in $4.35.
Uncalled bets: $0.65 returned to VorShot.

Results:
Final pot: $18.3
VorShot showed Jh Js
Button mucks 2c Ac

redCashion

11-14-2006, 01:25 AM

Ah, agreed on that. Sometimes even better is rivering the card you need after it checks around on the turn. Then villain bets, and you surprise him with a raise and he's like "WTF? I call". /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Big Poppa Smurf

11-14-2006, 03:47 AM

either c/bet or check/fold are your lines

also i think you need to look at flop/preflop seperately here in terms of what you are betting to win, since you can't know what will flop. so you are betting 5.5 to win 7.5.

Epple

11-14-2006, 08:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly I think preflop is marginal given the number of limpers. JJ+ I think is a definite raise but I think TT is borderline.

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise 88 there.

[/ QUOTE ]

quick hijack

How about big cards? Are you raising AQo there? AJs/ATs? KQs?

[/ QUOTE ]

AQo can either be raise or call.

Others just call.

Ben K

11-14-2006, 09:22 AM

On this flop I would usually c-bet as normal with normal stack sizes. A few reasons:

A bad player may call a pf raise with KK and QQ and then drop it due to your aggression.
They may call with a weak ace and then realise it's going to cost a lot to play with the weak hand and fold.
Continually raising pf starts to get lots of calls from JT, KQ, KT, KJ, etc and you need to deny them chance to improve.
Also, you may often calls by suited connectors and you need to deny odds to draw to the flush.

On this flop, however, I would be more careful due to the villains stack size. A common plan for a weak ace hand is to call the c-bet assuming you'll give up on the turn when you don't have him beat. However, by the turn he has little left having called your flop bet and you may face a push out of desparation (even though he has the best hand). A weak ace or low pp or stray J is hi smost likely hand due to his limp, call from UTG. Very unlikely to have a monster except possibly low trips.

I would probably still bet but maybe drop the size down to 2/3 (like you did) or maybe even lower to say $4. It helps if called as he has more than pot sized stack left, and provides most of the advantages of betting (odds laid are better though). Also, it kinds looks like a monster trying to drag him in which might help him fold. Worth noting his reaction to your bet in this situation. It means you can get to the turn and bet again (improved or not) and he has a chance to fold and save some stack.

You're right in that you don't have much beat in this position but you do have the initiative and the stack and the aggression and the skill to outplay him.

Having said all that, I sometimes check, call. If I check, he'll probably bet and provided it's not huge, I'll call or fold. If I fold I look like someone who can be pushed around setting me up for monster hand check raises (which I love when I'm OOP with multiple villains who like to bet). If I call I look like a slowplay and he may back off because he might not have the ace or if he has the jack he'll think I have a weak ace. I guess this is where the reads part comes in. If he's any good some of this goes right out the window.

kazana

11-14-2006, 09:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I am investing 8.50 to win 4.50, so I need to be correct more than 2/3 of the time on a given flop for it to be profitable, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, that's wrong.
The money you put in preflop is gone. Forget about it.
Try to think about it like this: You were raising preflop for value, because on average you'll make more money postflop. You're not paying twice for the privilege of entering the pot.
Thus, you're risking $5.50 to win $7.50.

Situations like these really need solid reads. Vs an unknown I'll probably c-bet here, but shutdown immediately if getting called.

Now, if you know villain will just about never fold to a cbet, but will lead if checked to with just about any two, then I might consider a c/r. And again, give up if my c/r is called.

The problem with this flop is that it's 2-flush. The vast majority of players will continue with any 2 hearts, no matter how much you bet. In those cases they'll be able to take the pot away from you with possibly worse hands on the turn or river and your investment doesn't give you a clue whether you're ahead or behind.

So, it's important to have an idea what villain is playing preflop like that: Low/Medium pocketpairs? Low/Medium suited connectors? Suited/Offsuit A-trash? These are all possible hands that your average fishy loves to play exactly like this.

You really need to get a fairly accurate read on dangerous flops like these to be able to continue optimally.

pokerchap

11-14-2006, 09:47 AM

i think it is right to c-bet in hand 1.

UTG limp/calling could mean anything.

Splossy

11-14-2006, 10:01 AM

I think C-betting is usually the correct play here but you don't need to bet 5.50 into a 7.50 pot. 1/2 the pot - that kills most vanilla draw odds.

Antinome

11-14-2006, 11:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

I am investing 8.50 to win 4.50, so I need to be correct more than 2/3 of the time on a given flop for it to be profitable, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, that's wrong.
The money you put in preflop is gone. Forget about it.
Try to think about it like this: You were raising preflop for value, because on average you'll make more money postflop. You're not paying twice for the privilege of entering the pot.
Thus, you're risking $5.50 to win $7.50.

[/ QUOTE ]

The convention is that the pot doesn't belong to you and you should ignore it. If that doesn't make sense to you you could look at it this completely non-standard way:

You have 46.25 + your equity in the pot. Say that is 2.00.
Your net worth is 48.25.

You bet 5.50 to win his 5.50 equity + prevent yourself from losing 2.00 of equity by folding. 5.50 to win 7.50.

It ends up exactly the same but if you have a hard time bending your mind around the folding loses 0 dollars concept it can be a useful way to think about it.