WSOP Advisory Council Follow-up

[BobFeduniak]

This is a follow-up to my previous posts on this forum that solicited comments relating to the World Series of Poker (WSOP) for discussion by the WSOP Players Advisory Council. Here are links to these earlier posts:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...rue#Post6721929 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=WSOP&Number=6721929&S earchpage=2&Main=6721929&Words=feduniak&topic=&Sea rch=true#Post6721929)

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...rue#Post7373534 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=WSOP&Number=7373534&S earchpage=1&Main=7373534&Words=feduniak&topic=&Sea rch=true#Post7373534)


Dozens of readers contributed emails. Here (in no particular order) are brief bullet-point summaries of the most frequently-mentioned suggestions/wishes that I receivced for WSOP 2007 (taking into account comments made verbally in addition to those in emails):

--Duration of daily play too long in some events.
--Floorperson/decision-making needs improvement
--Players would like lower buy-in mixed-game events
--Quality of playing cards needs improvement
--Players don’t like being forced through Expo room on breaks
--More low-buyin satellites would be welcome
--Some food prices still too high
--Moderate-priced restaurants too crowded on dinner breaks
--Comp amounts should be higher for events with higher “juice”
--Juice should not rise so much for higher buy-in events.


The WSOP Advisory Council recently held its first post-WSOP 2006 meeting. All of these topic were presented to all Council members and to the Harrah’s executives responsible for planning and conducting WSOP. Some were discussed extensively; others will be covered in future meetings.

The Harrah’s group has already put a great deal of thought and effort into planning for WSOP 2007 to be the best WSOP ever. In my view, they are open-minded and really do welcome with open minds input from players at all levels. Your input has been/will be heard. That does not mean everyone will get what he/she wants, but be assured that your voices are being heard and welcomed. I feel quite confident that at least some of the changes suggested will be implemented for 2007.

Anticipating an obvious question, I have no connection to Harrah’s or WSOP apart from being an Advisory Council member (members receive no compensation) who has long enjoyed playing in WSOP.

Bob Feduniak

[ligastar]

Bob,

Thanks for the proactive steps you are taking to make poker a stronger game and the WSOP a world-class event.

liga

[ike]

Don't let people get away with cheating this year.

[BigBuffet]

Gavin Smith said don't lose his chips next year /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Rottersod]

Bob, Most of your post was good but do you have to shill for Harrah's so much?:

"The Harrah’s group has already put a great deal of thought and effort into planning for WSOP 2007 to be the best WSOP ever."

Every year we hear that this years WSOP will be "the best ever" and every year for the past few years it has got worse. I appreciate the effort your group is putting in to try and make things better but we could all do without the hyperbole. Let the results of 2007 stand for themselves.

[*TT*]

Bob:

What does Harrahs play to do to combat the expected shrink in field size due to the internet poker ban?

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[BigBuffet]

Here's what I would do: Have live satellites at every possible B&M casino.

[Kevmath]

There's going to be quite a few satellites available at many B&M's. With many online options available (Stars, UB, Bodog, and online sites for those outside the US) there may not be as large a decrease as expected. Worth noting is that according to Harrah's, they haven't accepted 3rd party registrations.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's what I would do: Have live satellites at every possible B&M casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow.... I nominate you for the president of Harahs. Why didn't they think of that?

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[BobFeduniak]

I should have put quotation marks around "the best WSOP ever," to make clear that there was no consensus on what that phrase means. My definition differs from those of Harrah's and of some other committee members, but I give the Harrah's people a lot of credit for soliciting and listening to the sometimes caustic criticisms of players (including mine, which did not make the cut).

Bob Feduniak

[BobFeduniak]

I'm not sure what you mean by "combat." My impression was that, from Harrah's perspective, the biggest challenge would come from a field larger than 2006's. If they're prepared for that, then handling a smaller field shouldn't be too difficult. Let me know if I'm misunderstanding your question.

Bob Feduniak

[Kevmath]

Just speculating what TT was thinking, but if the numbers are expected to be lower in 2007, will Harrah's increase the juice or do some cost cutting to maintain their profits?

[BigBuffet]

I think TT meant "How are they going to get enough fish to keep the 36 straight years of increased attendance intact, not to mention preserving profits" due to many poker sites and financial intermediaries closing access to US players.

(PS: I think the $10 food comps are just fine considering the small amount we spend on entry fees. I'm on a diet anyway so a $5 grilled cheese and three pieces of cut up fruit is plenty).

You're a good man, Bob. How you put up with caustic poker players is beyond me...

[BigBuffet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's what I would do: Have live satellites at every possible B&M casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow.... I nominate you for the president of Harahs. Why didn't they think of that?

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, TT. But I doubt I could read the obligatory GA shpiel as fake-sincerely as Gary does /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Rottersod]

[ QUOTE ]
I should have put quotation marks around "the best WSOP ever," to make clear that there was no consensus on what that phrase means. My definition differs from those of Harrah's and of some other committee members, but I give the Harrah's people a lot of credit for soliciting and listening to the sometimes caustic criticisms of players (including mine, which did not make the cut).

Bob Feduniak

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for clarifying Bob. I give them credit too but the real test will be if they listen and make changes. So far we haven't seen any evidence that Harrah's is willing to make changes. They seem to be mesmorized by the golden eggs and haven't been willing to look into the future and plan for a better run event. I hope this will change.

On a different but related matter: We still haven't heard anything official from them about the extra $2m in chips at this years ME, right? Didn't they say that they would have an investigation? We all know what happened thanks to those reporters but still no official word from Harrah's.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's what I would do: Have live satellites at every possible B&M casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow.... I nominate you for the president of Harahs. Why didn't they think of that?

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, TT. But I doubt I could read the obligatory GA shpiel as fake-sincerely as Gary does /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, rather than be a wise ass (I'm good at that though) I can briefly explain. Its not in the best interest of most non-Harahs casinos to promote the WSOP.

Bob - by "combat" I mean find ways to counteract their expected decrease in attendance. In my opinion this should be the #1 concern of Harahs at this stage... if the field shrinks to 2,000 we might loose the interest of the general public.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Kevmath]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I should have put quotation marks around "the best WSOP ever," to make clear that there was no consensus on what that phrase means. My definition differs from those of Harrah's and of some other committee members, but I give the Harrah's people a lot of credit for soliciting and listening to the sometimes caustic criticisms of players (including mine, which did not make the cut).

Bob Feduniak

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for clarifying Bob. I give them credit too but the real test will be if they listen and make changes. So far we haven't seen any evidence that Harrah's is willing to make changes. They seem to be mesmorized by the golden eggs and haven't been willing to look into the future and plan for a better run event. I hope this will change.

On a different but related matter: We still haven't heard anything official from them about the extra $2m in chips at this years ME, right? Didn't they say that they would have an investigation? We all know what happened thanks to those reporters but still no official word from Harrah's.

[/ QUOTE ]

I recall reading on Amy Calistri's blog late September that Harrah's would have an explanation of the $2m extra in chips the following week. This was before the UIGEA and offer to Harrah's being bought out happened, and haven't heard or seen anything from them since. In that same blog entry was this: [ QUOTE ]
I also felt good when I read Bob Feduniak’s post on rgp, looking for input for the next WSOP Advisory Council meeting. He posted, “You may assume that the $2 million chip overage will be a prominent agenda item.”

[/ QUOTE ]

[BigBuffet]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not in the best interest of most non-Harrahs casinos to promote the WSOP. TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right, having satellites on slow nights would be stupid. The juice they would get plus the cash game traffic as players bust out is def -EV.

[BobFeduniak]

Neither higher juice nor cost-cutting was mentioned or even hinted at. Opinions vary so widely on how great an impact the internet gaming legislation will have on WSOP entry levels that it is difficult for people to agree on a baseline for planning until (hopefully) the long term effects of the UIGEA become clearer.

Bob Feduniak

[BobFeduniak]

I don't think the WSOP people at Harrah's are too focused on the buyout issue, but it is fair to say that the UIGEA is dominating thoughts and agendas, so a number of things got less discussion than I would have predicted had this legislation not appeared on the scene. But I do think it's very likely there will be better procedures and controls in place at WSOP 2007

Bob Feduniak

[Kevmath]

Bob,

How about the extra $2m in chips during the Main Event? Was the Council ever told what happened?

[BobFeduniak]

Nobody asked specifically about the extra chips, and nobody volunteered details. Here is my own opinion, which I did not offer at the meeting and so can present here without compromising the confidentiality of our discussions:

If there were a secret ballot re what happened, I think that Amy Calistri's hypothesis would win in a landslide. I think that a lot of people agree with my feeling that justice would not be served by punishing (or even identifying) someone who made an unintentional error. I think that the problem was one of procedures and verification and that if these are improved in 2007 there is very little chance that this type of error will recur. I think that Harrah's plans to take steps that will significantly improve the procedures re chip handling and count verification in 2007.

Bob Feduniak

[Valsuvious]

So does anyone have a link handy to where I can read about the extra 2m in chips at the wsop me? Specifically Amy Calistri's hypothesis included please.

First that I'd ever heard of it, but then again, I've new to these forums and have been hard pressed at work for the past few months.

[jrfelps]

[ QUOTE ]
So does anyone have a link handy to where I can read about the extra 2m in chips at the wsop me? Specifically Amy Calistri's hypothesis included please.

First that I'd ever heard of it, but then again, I've new to these forums and have been hard pressed at work for the past few months.

[/ QUOTE ]


http://www.pokernews.com/news/2006/9/two-million-questions-three.htm

[Blair Rodman]

Hi Bob,

First, thanks for your efforts in this area.

There are two items that are very important to the quality of play in the tournament that haven't been discussed here:

-The lack of easily observable, updated tournament clocks. It was even worse this year than last year because many of the clocks, especially the big one at the end of the room, were replaced by ads. It's very important to a player to have the info on the clocks readily available and updated regularly. Many times during the tournament I couldn’t even see a clock without getting up from my table and walking several yards.

-While the clock situation is bad, the lack of a posted, adhered to table-breaking order is inexcusable, for a couple of reasons:

1) A thinking player’s strategy is in part based on how long his table will be intact or break. There are many facets to this that I won’t go in to here.
2) It opens up an area for impropriety, or accusations of impropriety on the part of floormen. It’s not hard to imagine situations where it would be beneficial or detrimental for a player to have his table broken or not broken. The floorman in charge of determining the breaking order could easily manipulate the order to help a player. I know this has happened at other tournaments in the past. I’m not saying this has happened at the WSOP, but it shouldn’t be a possibility, and the solution is simple.

Some other thoughts:

The rising juice on poker tournaments is a real issue for regular players. If no one says anything, casinos will just keep taking more and more. Everyone has his breaking point. Personally, I’ve about reached mine. For instance, the latest round of entry fee hikes at the Bellagio was the last straw for me as far as their preliminary events go. It was not only excessive, but it’s insulting. From talking to players, I think a lot of others have the same feeling. I think it was evidenced there by the turnout in the prelim events at their last tournament. The problem at the WSOP is, well, it’s the WSOP. This is the most important tournament and everyone wants to play. Why is it the biggest and most prestigious tournament? It has nothing to do with Harrah’s. The WSOP was created by the Binions and built by the players! Without the support of the players over the last 35 years there wouldn’t be a WSOP. Now Harrah’s has control of it, has turned it into a cash machine, and is, in essence, holding the players hostage. Hopefully the WPA can attract enough members to present a untied voice and help players get a share of the windfall, but at this point the only choice is to not play. This has built some deep resentment among players who were around in the old days and knew what it was like to be treated with respect. The sad part is that it wouldn’t take a lot to ease this---just give something back in the form of reduced juice or other indications of appreciation—but I just don’t think Harrah’s has it in them. I hope I’m wrong.

There are many other indicators that drive home the point that the WSOP is now about making money for the operators and not about creating the best tournament possible for the participants. The lack of tournament clocks is one. Being forced to make their way through the crowded Expo room when arriving for an event or on a break and forcing players to play 10-handed when not necessary are others.

The near-exclusion of games other than hold’em is disturbing to many players who have been around and player those games for years. The publicity surrounding the HORSE event this year has helped. Newer player are developing an interest in those games, something I think is good for poker in the long term. If there was some thought put into it, more events in games like stud 8-or-better, razz and stud could be included as bracelet events. They had a germ of an idea by having more than one event per day and staggering the starting times. However, they didn’t take it far enough. Instead of starting the second event at 2pm, start it at 4pm. With the policy of letting player enter an hour into an event and the fact that a large percentage of most fields are ko’d with 5 hours, this would allow many players to play multiple events in a day and would provide a spot for the other games. However, this needs to be accompanied with some good planning. The early events need to be the ones that players bust out of quickly, like the small buy-in NLH events. The structure of this year’s razz and 8-or-better events (which need to be tweaked, BTW) was such that almost no one was eliminated in the first few hours, making playing a second event at 2pm unlikely.

Sorry this got so long, but it’s a subject I care about. I was happy to see the creation of an Advisory Council, and I hope it’s more than just window dressing. With the passage of the new law, poker is at a critical stage. Attendance at the WSOP this year, as well as at other tournaments, will likely be down once the law takes effect. How casinos respond-- and Harrah’s is in a leadership position-- will be the determining factor in poker’s future. If the response is ‘well poker had its’ run so lets just squeeze what we can out of it and then move on to something else’ then the game, at least in today’s sense, is in trouble. If Harrah’s is willing to take some steps that may temporarily reduce their bottom line somewhat, but will help the game in the long run, then there’s hope.

Blair Rodman

[BigBuffet]

[ QUOTE ]
...With the passage of the new law, poker is at a critical stage. Attendance at the WSOP this year, as well as at other tournaments, will likely be down once the law takes effect... Blair Rodman

[/ QUOTE ]

Hence moving up the schedule for 2007 and postponing the inevitable attendance downswing...

[Kevmath]

They were moving up the schedule because ESPN asked them to, avoid conflicts with college football and postseason baseball.

[BigBuffet]

Then it coincidentally achieves the same result, namely the unbroken attendance increase might not be broken until '08.

But between decreased access to online gaming and the other issues with the WSOP, some changes will need to be made.

You know the expression, Change or Die. Harrah's doesn't have a monopoly on tournaments. Sometimes greed is bad...

[mshalen]

1. As usual Blair's comments are dead on.

2. What exactly can Harrahs do to stem the anticipated decline of entrants in the WSOP? If they will not accept most 3rd party entry payments then how will they get the ME above 1,000 players? If the WSOP really is such a great cash cow for Harrahs (which I personaly don't believe) then I would think their strategy would be to provide a great experience for the players and increase the number of entrants.

[theblitz]

[ QUOTE ]
With many online options available (Stars, UB, Bodog, and online sites for those outside the US) there may not be as large a decrease as expected. Worth noting is that according to Harrah's, they haven't accepted 3rd party registrations.

[/ QUOTE ]
What is the story now with online-site qualifications?
Will they still be allowed?
Do they count as "third-party"? If not, then was are "third-party" registrations?

Since I live outside the US I stand a chance of qualifying this year (at least that's the excuse I give the wife for me playing poker all the time).

[ShadowBJ21]

Depends on how they define 3rd party registration.

I assume that they just won't accept that an online casino registers a bunch of online qualifiers directly in their name.

I think if you won a seat you have to fill out the registration forms by yourself, sign them and send them to Harrah's. Then the money has to be sent to Harrah's (from anywere).