AQ TPTK vs a checkraise

[HitNRunPoster]

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
hero: $88.98
UTG+1: $135.77
CO: $15.90
Button: $42.14
SB: $49.50
BB: $8.56

Pre-flop: (6 players) hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif
<font color="#cc0000">hero raises to $2</font>, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/club.gif ($6.5, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">hero bets $4</font>, CO folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $10</font>, <font color="#cc0000">hero raises to $16</font>, intending to fold to further action or check the turn.

[avfletch]

This will be a club draw as often as anything else. Don't offer SB such great odds with your min-raise. A read would be really useful about now but generally I'm raising.

[HitNRunPoster]

Firstly, what's the correct practice for determining raise size?

Should I put him on an exact hand (say a flush draw) and then choose a raise size that makes it incorrect for him to call my raise?

Or should I do something different than that?

What would you raise to here, if you raised, and why?

--dave.

[Baintz]

Absent any reads, most people don't checkraise with a hand that is beaten by TPTK. Could be a set but he could be on a club draw trying to get a free river card.
I probably call his reraise and re-evaluate on turn, your minraise does nothing but sweeten the pot

[Vern]

[ QUOTE ]
Absent any reads, most people don't checkraise with a hand that is beaten by TPTK. Could be a set but he could be on a club draw trying to get a free river card.
I probably call his reraise and re-evaluate on turn, your minraise does nothing but sweeten the pot

[/ QUOTE ]
But he has to check the turn to get a free river card and OP can bet again. I think a raise on the flop is more likely from a draw and a c/r is more likely from a good hand. I am not necessarily giving up, but I am starting to think pot control now too.

[munkey]

If you want to PSR it ~ 20$ - there's better explanations of calculating this in previous threads - use search, I'm bad at explainig it that's whay I suggest you use search. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif
It's ~ x2 amount to call + potsize HU.

Try and take the best line vs. the most likely holdings of villans range rather than trying to put him on an exact hand
and play vs those most likely holdings . Still try to narrow his holdings down to few hands but realise that this is the exception.


Because of the club draw and our hand and we have position I would call the flop minraise. This could also be a weaker queen/set.
If he checks turn lead 2/3 -if he calls his range is mainly Qx or a flushdraw, though a str8 is possible. Bet river if he calls after check/calling turn. Checking the turn and calling river bet(maybe from a busted draw) is an alternative route.

If he leads turn then we have to decide whether we think we're ahead and willing to call a river bet.

I rarely 3 bet in this scenario with position -let our advantage to see what villan does first help us. like avfletch said if villan holds a fdraw you're helping him play correctly by offering good odds.

Any reads/notes/stats on villan?
Reads est mucha importante in NL. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[jakeduke]

I would bet the flop a bit more, maybe 5 or so, but it's not a huge deal.

I would call the flop C/R and evaluate the turn. As others have said, while this line has a good chance of being a strong hand, it's a small C/R and we have position. Others have also mentioned the pitfalls of the min 3-bet here. Actually, just about any 3-bet let's villain play close to perfectly here, as he can draw if he deems it profitable, or string you along if he has a hand like a set.

What you do on the turn depends a lot on reads. If the turn is a club and villain bets I'm folding just about all the time, as the only part of his range we then beat is a weaker Q. Past that, evaluate the card and his bet size and go with what you know. I do agree that you should be the turn if villain checks, as his range is then most likely a draw or a monster.

[Check_The_Nuts]

why bluff with TPTK. I call the check raise and see the turn, then do stuff.

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Absent any reads, most people don't checkraise with a hand that is beaten by TPTK. Could be a set but he could be on a club draw trying to get a free river card.
I probably call his reraise and re-evaluate on turn, your minraise does nothing but sweeten the pot

[/ QUOTE ]
But he has to check the turn to get a free river card and OP can bet again. I think a raise on the flop is more likely from a draw and a c/r is more likely from a good hand. I am not necessarily giving up, but I am starting to think pot control now too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oddly enough, my raise was for pot control.

By raising only $6 and checking through the turn I can keep the pot much smaller than if I call and then call again on the turn, I think, as the pot will be something like $24 at least on the turn if I call the raise, right?

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
why bluff with TPTK. I call the check raise and see the turn, then do stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not totally bluffing. If I raised more, then it would be bluffing. This is a minreraise. It gets more calls than a normal reraise, or at least, it should.

[HitNRunPoster]

Thanks monkey. I knew what PSR's were but that's a much quicker way of calculating it.

Um, I like the idea of calling here. Could you tell me more about your turn plan if bet into?

I think villain is totally unknown. If this causes you to fold the flop, then that's ok, but I'd like to know who you would call the flop against...

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
why bluff with TPTK. I call the check raise and see the turn, then do stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of the reason I three-bet the hand is that I had no turn plan after calling the flop and I didn't want to fold.

[HitNRunPoster]

Vs a total unknown (this guy just sat at the table).

ooc, what is the ev of:
a) folding
b) reraising minimum
c) reraising PSR
d) calling...

?

I'm just curious how close this is.

In particular, I'm curious about how close of a decision calling and folding are. (basically answered by answering "what is hte ev of calling" because folding = zero).

[Phytopath]

I don't like the 3-bet on the flop, unless you are sure your villian will do it with a flush draw. The pot is now bloated at your hand isn't all that great. I would call the flop raise and see what he does on the turn, fold if he makes a sizeable bet, B/F if he checks and call a reasonable bet.

[Roadstar]

LOL thats the funniest line I heard for quote a while. This is not limit hold'em. There is no 3 bet to get free turn card.

You don't even have any reads so just fold Top pair.

If you really think hes on a club draw, call then 2/3 PSB the turn on a non-club if he checks.

[ QUOTE ]


Oddly enough, my raise was for pot control.



[/ QUOTE ]

[kazana]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks monkey. I knew what PSR's were but that's a much quicker way of calculating it.

Um, I like the idea of calling here. Could you tell me more about your turn plan if bet into?

I think villain is totally unknown. If this causes you to fold the flop, then that's ok, but I'd like to know who you would call the flop against...

[/ QUOTE ]
The PSR would be closer to $32, and basically pot-committing yourself.

I like the call better. If villain bets into you on the turn, you'll really have to figure out what he's trying to do. This needs reads.

If you think it's for value, then he's clearly not scared of TPTK and you should consider folding.

If you think he's drawing, then a flat call will do. If you know villain won't call any further bets if he misses on the river, you should prefer a raise. That way, you get more value right now if he does call, or you don't give him the chance to draw to his flush/straight if he folds to your raise.

[Sir Winalot]

Grunch,

What is that stupid minraise?! If you wan't to 3-bet the flop then make it 27-32. I would lead the flop for 5-6.5 and call the raise.

[Jay Riall]

Bet more on the flop initially and call the flop raise. Re-evaluate on the turn. I'm likely c-r AI on a non club turn.

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
Vs a total unknown (this guy just sat at the table).

ooc, what is the ev of:
a) folding
b) reraising minimum
c) reraising PSR
d) calling...

?

I'm just curious how close this is.

In particular, I'm curious about how close of a decision calling and folding are. (basically answered by answering "what is hte ev of calling" because folding = zero).

[/ QUOTE ]

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Vs a total unknown (this guy just sat at the table).

ooc, what is the ev of:
a) folding
b) reraising minimum
c) reraising PSR
d) calling...

?

I'm just curious how close this is.

In particular, I'm curious about how close of a decision calling and folding are. (basically answered by answering "what is hte ev of calling" because folding = zero).

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

(I'm saying here that if calling is really close to folding, I'd prefer to fold, but htat I want to know the difference first.)

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Vs a total unknown (this guy just sat at the table).

ooc, what is the ev of:
a) folding
b) reraising minimum
c) reraising PSR
d) calling...

?

I'm just curious how close this is.

In particular, I'm curious about how close of a decision calling and folding are. (basically answered by answering "what is hte ev of calling" because folding = zero).

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

(I'm saying here that if calling is really close to folding, I'd prefer to fold, but htat I want to know the difference first.)

[/ QUOTE ]

[Jouster777]

Calculating an EV of calling depends on assigning a range to villain AND predicing what he will do on later streets with each element of that range...all of which depends on a read with none given. There's not much point in precise math calculations given the wild assumptions needed.

If you say villain will take some chances but never does this with crap then: 55, 22, AcKc, AQs, AcJc, AcTc, Ac9c, QcJc, 7c6c, 4c3c, AQo then you have only 36% equity. The minraise is terrible cuz it bloats the pot when behind and lets him draw with immediate odds with everything else.

If the turn comes a blank you are still behind this range. As weak as it seems, if villain is a decent or even average player, this looks like a fold.
Board: Qd 2c 5c
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 63.1606 % 48.56% 14.60% { 55, 22, AcKc, AQs, AcJc, AcTc, Ac9c, QcJc, 7c6c, 4c3c, AQo }
Hand 2: 36.8394 % 22.24% 14.60% { AhQh }

Board: Qd 2c 5c 9s
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 57.3565 % 42.11% 15.25% { 55, 22, AcKc, AQs, AcJc, AcTc, Ac9c, QcJc, 7c6c, 4c3c, AQo }
Hand 2: 42.6435 % 27.39% 15.25% { AhQh }