Difficult Turn Bet Sizes

[HitNRunPoster]

Say someone floats my continuation bet. I check to them, and they bet maybe 1/3 the pot or something like that. Or say that they checkraise my CBF and I call them. Then they lead into me with a minbet.

Generally this is either a fish, a lag, or a tag, sometimes a slag, or a lagtag. The boards vary pretty much randomly. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Anyways, I'm kinda curious about what you guys think this means from what types of opponents on what boards, and how you would respond to said action with different types of hands on different boards vs different opponents.

Feel free to make some examples if you want.

--Dave.

[Vern]

Frequency, I won't always cbet and I won't always respond to a float either but absent a read I am likely folding to a flop c/r and will only call the turn bet if heads up with a ragged board or more than just an overcard draw.

[HitNRunPoster]

This is all about the turn man.

[ymu]

It's not exactly an easy question to answer. It's read dependent but also image dependent - and somewhat card dependent.

Questions to ask include:

-What does he normally bet with a hand worth betting on this flop/turn?
-Does he trap with monsters?
-Does he like to induce bluffs?
-Does he bet small and fold to a raise, or bet small and 3betAI?
-Has he seen me check-raise a monster on the turn?
-If he thinks he's ahead with a mediocre hand, will he call down, even if I 3-barrel it?
-Does he bet small on draws and will he chase a draw for his stack?
-Is there a strong enough draw there for him to call AI?
-Do I have a draw worth continuing with getting 4:1?

Etc etc.

[Gravy]

Couple options:

If one paricular guy starts doing this to you,

-Fire a second barrel on the turn more
-Check/fold a decent number of turns to make your turn c/r's more believable
-c/c or c/r flop occasionally when you hit (if you don't fear a free card)

[Vern]

[ QUOTE ]
This is all about the turn man.

[/ QUOTE ]
My answer was about the turn.

1) I don't get there often when my cbet is check/raised on the flop and I don't have a solid read.

2) On the turn, I am not going to call even a min-bet with just overcards unless the board is really ragged or I have a specific read on my opponent that tells me he plays this way with air.

[HitNRunPoster]

I'm sorry for my extremely poorly worded question. I'll try to find some hands to post it. It just happened to me again. Wow this almost enough to tilt me! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think I had a 2x AQ and one AA hand or something like that where a guy either CRF/minbet or C/C minbet, or float minbet when checked to... it was quite frustrating.

All of these guys were either slags or LPP's.

Um, I think that I should just keep betting vs the LPP's, although I don't know if I can three-bet them on the flop. I think it's possible that once they make that checkraise, it's just over for me in terms of EV in the hand but I'm not sure.

Anyways, I'll dig through PT and see what I can scrounge up.

Thanks for your patience.

[kurto]

Your question is really dependent on your opponent and the quality of your read.

Against LAG/MANIACS-- If I have AA and they reraise me... I'll often push and get called by all kinds of crap.

Against a better player... they're ahead of you and now milking you on the turn with small bets.

Though if they're out of position and they minbet the turn... you're often ahead. ie they were testing your cont. bet or they have draw.

[HitNRunPoster]

Ok, I realize that these are going to be bad, but meh.

Hand 2 and 3 were played against a villain that was something like 50-70/8/1.7, and I can't remember who I was playing hand 1 against, maybe a tag.

edit: reading the original responses. Sorry about my poor questiong. /images/graemlins/frown.gif /images/graemlins/frown.gif

ALSO PLEASE GIVE TWO ANSWERS FOR EACH HAND: 1) WHAT DO TO, 2) WHAT TO DO ABSENT READS OF ANY KIND.

================================================

1)

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $25.22
UTG+1: $81.45
CO: $24.99
hero: $49
SB: $14.93
BB: $42.75

Pre-flop: (6 players) hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $1</font>, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, <font color="#cc0000">hero raises to $4</font>, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($13.25, 3 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG bets $5</font>, hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: Q/images/graemlins/club.gif ($23.25, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">UTG bets $2</font>

---------

2)

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $34.79
hero: $52.40
Button: $49
Button: $11.18
SB: $31.15
BB: $23.87

Pre-flop: (5 players) hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">hero raises to $2.5</font>, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG folds.

Flop: Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($5.75, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">hero bets $4</font>, BB calls.

Turn: 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($13.75, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $2</font>

---------------

3)

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
Button: $49
UTG: $127.10
CO: $73.18
Button: $40.50
hero: $48.75
BB: $50.15

Pre-flop: (5 players) hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif
2 folds, Button calls, <font color="#cc0000">hero raises to $2</font>, BB folds, Button calls.

Flop: 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($4.5, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">hero bets $3</font>, Button calls.

Turn: T/images/graemlins/club.gif ($10.5, 2 players)
hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets $3</font>

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
Couple options:

If one paricular guy starts doing this to you,

-Fire a second barrel on the turn more
-Check/fold a decent number of turns to make your turn c/r's more believable
-c/c or c/r flop occasionally when you hit (if you don't fear a free card)

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it really that important if I'm afraid of a free card?

Say that the board is 2tn, and I check intending to checkraise. Let's also assume that I'm afraid of flush cards. Only 1/5 of the cards are flush cards, and there's generally like 8-10bb in the pot. So I'm baiscally giving up like 2bb when I check.

Do you think that 2bb is a big deal, or is the idea of seeing a scary card and then c/f'ing the turn mostly a psychological problem?

[HitNRunPoster]

What's up with the 4:1 odds thing? Just curious because I'd like you to expand on that if you don't mind.

[HitNRunPoster]

not even a minbet? Why not, are you afraid of pairing and calling a bigger bet? That seems strange.

(it could certainly be prudent though... I think I might start mucking some hands in the sb that I would call iwth in lhe... in unraised pots. I'm not sure though. This isn't totally related, but I think it may be a good idea.)

[Waingro]

Ok I am going to limit myself to the turn action. My default read of those turn bets is that they are some kind of marginal holding that villain think might be best. Raise hand 1 and 2, hand 3 i might just cc and vb any river card, just because a cr puts you in a awkward spot.

[Minnie Man]

Hand 1)

The flop bet is weak by UTG. He only min raised PF and then called your large raise with the BB acting before him. Seems like he has a mid PP or suited broadway. A $5 into $13 is weak. Reraise here on the flop to get an idea as to where you stand. If you reraise, it is likely he will be pot committed too given his small stack. I think you are way ahead here, so push.

Hand 2)

You showed strengh PF and on the flop. I might have bet slightly more on the flop given the pot size. His turn bet is way too weak to just call. You have to reraise here to define his hand. You are way behind if he called PF with A2, but I think you are way ahead again.

Hand 3)

I would be more PF being OOP and one limper. You want to make limpers pay to see a flop....and make it expensive when you are OOP. Being OOP again on the flop, I would have bet the pot with TPTK. There are no draws, so what can he have? His turn bet is really weak. He isn't calling with the nut flush as you have the A. This is a weak bet. He probably not has either a SD or FD and put $3 for a blocking bet. Reraise again as you are most likely way ahead. Don't let them in cheaply!

[HitNRunPoster]

Would betting the turn in #3 put us in an equally crappy spot as c/r?

I'm just curious about what you mean by a crappy spot. I guess there's all sorts of river cards that are ugly...

[HitNRunPoster]

Crap, good point, I don't htink I looked at stacks in hand #1! /images/graemlins/blush.gif

lol, however, reading your commentary on hand #1, did you just say "push to see where you stand"? /images/graemlins/cool.gif I take it you mean "push vs shortie (50bb) but raise to see where you stand vs someone with like 100bb"

[Waingro]

[ QUOTE ]
Would betting the turn in #3 put us in an equally crappy spot as c/r?

I'm just curious about what you mean by a crappy spot. I guess there's all sorts of river cards that are ugly...

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I think leading the turn is much better. If you cr you have sort of defined your hand, but then a scarecard hits on the river and you have a psb left. What do you do, push, vb smallish, cc, cf? Checking after you cr leads to all sorts of mayhem where even a bad villain is going to make a correct decision every now and then to bluff or to check behind or vb and do you really want to just blindly push any river. You really have to now your opponents tendencies to cr turn there.

[AnjoRush]

hand 1 raise, 2 raise, 3 raise Oo.

Strong bets makes me crazy, geez. i really hate them, i've seen one player min betting all turns, really annoying :S