Seven Card Stud in 42 Lessons?

[Leavenfish]

Has Mason ever reviewed or had any significant comment on Roy Wests Seven Card Stud in 42 Lessons book? I see nothing about it in Gambling Theory and Other Topics.

Thanks,
Leavenfish

[Leavenfish]

Worth a <bump> since this is a pure book question.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Fish:

I have never reviewed it and don't have an opinion of it.

Best wishes,
Mason

[ECDub]

Leavenfish,
On a related point, I was recently looking for a 7 card stud book and eventually chose Ashley Adams 7 card stud book because I liked some of his 7 card stud articles he ahd written. I believe Mr. Malmuth gave that book a (4) rating, but I found it adequate since I was starting out to learn some of the basic stuff. It gave some good tips on remembering cards that are out, when to drop your hand when it is not progressing in the later streets, stuff you should know when you sit down to play.

A while later, I bought Seven Card Stud for Advanced Players (7CS4AP) and it is the best. Credit to the authors, the book is so well done. Although it is written for higher stakes than I play, knowledge of the advanced pieces of the game can be an advantage, even at the lower limits.

[MMan710]

I actually just finished reading this book. I would definitely recommend buying it and reading it, especially if you really have no knowledge of seven card stud. While I have yet to play much stud, I found the book informative, interesting, and extremely easy to read (something lacking in much poker material).

Reading the book has definitely made me confident enough to play stud the next time I go to Atlantic City, without worrying about having no idea what I am doing (though I did play without any knowledge at the Mirage in Las Vegas and basically broke even). I cannot comment on any other stud books, but I think this book was great. If you are an experienced stud player, it might be too simple, but if you are just trying to learn the game, I'd recommend it.

[Leavenfish]

Don't misunderstand me, I have the book and have read it. Then I read the S,M and Zee book. I was just wondering what others opinions of it were, particulary Mason's if he had given it a good look. I rather liked it.

Thanks all,
Leavenfish

[Siegmund]

It's my standard recommendation for a 7stud book for the serious beginner / person familiar with another form of poker wanting to try 7stud.

I can't point to anything in it and say "this paragraph is bad advice, don't read it," like I can with most intro-to-holdem books.

[Andy B]

I don't care for the West book and have said so on the stud forum several thousand times. There is a lot of substandard advice. To cite one example which I have beaten into the ground, he has an example where you raise with Kings and your opponent re-raises with split Aces. He has you fold if your Kings are split, which is quite reasonable against a predictable opponent. He has you call if your Kings are concealed, which is again reasonable. What I have a problem with is that he recommends folding fourth street if you don't make trips. This is a terrible game-plan. You'll catch a third King on fourth street about 5% of the time, which is nowhere near often enough to make it worth calling third if you plan on folding fourth. Folding third is reasonable. Calling third with the intention of re-evaluating on fifth is reasonable. Calling third and then folding fourth most of the time is just throwing money away.

I've only read about half of Adams book, and I don't care for it, either. I haven't gotten to the part where he gives you the "real" strategy, so maybe I'd like that better, but I really don't like his approach in any case.

If you're going to learn stud, you simply have to study 7CS4AP. Realize that it is geared towards tightish casino games, so not everything is necessarily going to be applicable to your game. Hopefully, it will be obvious what you should pay close attention to and what you should file away for future use. There is a substantial section on ante-stealing. This isn't going to be applicable if your game is very loose, or if it doesn't have an ante. The section on loose games is very good, and will prove invaluable in most small games.

[Leavenfish]

[ QUOTE ]
To cite one example which I have beaten into the ground, he has an example where you raise with Kings and your opponent re-raises with split Aces. He has you fold if your Kings are split, which is quite reasonable against a predictable opponent. He has you call if your Kings are concealed, which is again reasonable. What I have a problem with is that he recommends folding fourth street if you don't make trips. This is a terrible game-plan. You'll catch a third King on fourth street about 5% of the time, which is nowhere near often enough to make it worth calling third if you plan on folding fourth. Folding third is reasonable. Calling third with the intention of re-evaluating on fifth is reasonable. Calling third and then folding fourth most of the time is just throwing money away.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, let me see if I get this right regarding hidden kings when you are sure your opponent has Aces: you have no problem with calling on 4th for the small bet when the odds are 20:1 against tripping...just with calling with the intention of folding on 4th if you do not improve? I mean, West is certainly not saying to throw the hand away if you improve.

I am not sure what you are saying here. If you do not improve, are your odds going to improve enough somehow to see 5th street? It looks like we are talking about a heads up situation (on pg 78-79)since no other hands are discussed and both hands outs are live.

If you ask me, since you know your opponent has aces, you should fold on 3rd and not call the raise and be done with it. The only reason to even consider playing, as West says, is that if you hit trip Kings, the Aces will not suspect it...but surely it's not worth playing beyond 4th if you have not improved...and with a King at that. If you pair your door card, whatever that is, you lose if your opponent pairs any card. You said, " Calling third and then folding fourth most of the time is just throwing money away", but gee...you are going to not improve most of the time anyway!

Thanks,
Leavenfish

[Andy B]

Let me be clear. Folding is definitely the best course of action against a player who has to have Aces to make that raise. I don't know about anybody else, but while I mostly play what I consider to be low-limit--$5/10 and $10/20 on-line, $4/8 and $6/12 live--I don't play against that many players who are that predictable. In particular, when I play live, it is frequently against people whom I have known for several years. They aren't the greatest players, but they do know that I don't necessarily need a big pocket pair to raise on third street, and they are consequently willing to re-raise without a big hand. So when this sequence takes place, there's a pretty good chance that my Kings are the best hand.

You said:

[ QUOTE ]
I mean, West is certainly not saying to throw the hand away if you improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

You made me dig up the book. On page 79, he says:

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't make trip kings on fourth street, you haven't invested much. Get out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read this to mean that you should check and fold even if you've made two pair. I can't imagine anyone actually doing this myself. Yes, you lose if the other guy makes a second pair, but you can also improve. You've become the favorite if you make two pair.

If you decide to call on third, and the other guy bets into you on fourth, then depending on the size of the ante, you will be getting between 5:1 and 7:1 on your call. By this point, you will have seen twelve cards, leaving forty unseen. If your cards are all live, there are eight that will give you two pair or better on fifth street. This is 4:1 against. Now there's no guarantee that you'll win if you buy a second pair, but I think you're getting odds to take one off here nevertheless. The call on third street may well have been a mistake, but it made the pot big enough that you have to play on, I think.

In my original post I probably should have said that calling third and then folding on fourth 95% of the time is throwing away money.

[Hosayif]

[ QUOTE ]
It's my standard recommendation for a 7stud book for the serious beginner / person familiar with another form of poker wanting to try 7stud.

I can't point to anything in it and say "this paragraph is bad advice, don't read it," like I can with most intro-to-holdem books.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which book are you referring to?