Nice PeelS Jennicide [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

Enon

11-09-2006, 10:07 PM

PokerStars 100/200 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Enon is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
3 folds, Button raises, Enon 3-bets, 1 fold, Button calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Enon bets, Button calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Enon bets, Button calls.

River: (6.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Enon checks, Button bets, Enon calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

Results in white below: 
Enon has Ah 9h (one pair, nines).
Button has 5c Jc (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: Button wins 8.50 BB.

HOWMANY

11-09-2006, 10:09 PM

I've heard she plays quite expertly, and I can see I heard right. She's clearly upgraded to the most recent pattern mapper.

Victor

11-09-2006, 10:17 PM

scary tiger coached her?

FULL RAKE

11-09-2006, 10:18 PM

lol. here is the fish thought process:

Flop: well, he 3 bet me, so he couldnt have hit that flop cuz it's all low.

Turn: I put him on AK

River: I have the nuts.

CaseS87

11-09-2006, 10:19 PM

clear case of putUonAKacidus

sightless

11-09-2006, 10:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
scary tiger coached her?

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

stinkypete

11-09-2006, 10:22 PM

what are you saying? she played it perfectly.

i've seen much, much worse from her. this hand is totally standard.

Victor

11-09-2006, 10:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
what are you saying? she played it perfectly.

i've seen much, much worse from her. this hand is totally standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

honestly, 90% of players peel this flop. i made a post about it once and, as usual, recieved no insight into proper peeling standards, only affirmations that i was weak tight.

AceCR9

11-09-2006, 10:31 PM

LOL MINBETAMENTS

If you want to avoid suck outs like this, start playing Unlimited Hold Them

HossTheBoss

11-09-2006, 10:34 PM

fold river.

Reef

11-09-2006, 10:36 PM

high stakes min bet hold them will never cease to not look like play money min bet hold them

Mrage

11-09-2006, 10:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
high stakes min bet hold them will never cease to not look like play money min bet hold them

[/ QUOTE ]I'm starting to notice that...

Dan87

11-09-2006, 10:43 PM

there is just so much going on and they are so much smarter than other holdem players that it APPEARS to be play money.

us trying to understand this symphony of strategies is like an illiterate trying to comprehend shakespeare

Colonel Kataffy

11-09-2006, 10:45 PM

NLfool

11-09-2006, 10:47 PM

I dunno, but this seems like a really standard Button vs blinds hand.

Well_TiMeD

11-09-2006, 10:47 PM

her play is really not THAT bad

The Bryce

11-09-2006, 10:49 PM

With 2 backdoors and some pair outs that are often live getting 8:1 with around neutral implied the flop probably isn't much of a mistake, if one at all. The turn is thinner, but I'm sure between getting an extra bet in on some of those outs and other things the odds are still close to being there.

A_C_Slater

11-09-2006, 10:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what are you saying? she played it perfectly.

i've seen much, much worse from her. this hand is totally standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

honestly, 90% of players peel this flop. i made a post about it once and, as usual, recieved no insight into proper peeling standards, only affirmations that i was weak tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't play limit anymore, but I'll take a crack at it.

Possible implied tilt odds + meta-game "look at me i'm a friggin call station, don't try to bluff me ever and play me more straight forwardly" + dual backdoor draws (flush and two gutshots) with overcard = +.0000000000073% EV.

Arnfinn Madsen

11-09-2006, 10:57 PM

I dunno, since I haven't played this game, but isn't the most important element that she metagame-wise forces Enon to check or bet a lot of turns without no clue of where "he is at".

Well_TiMeD

11-09-2006, 10:59 PM

the flop peel is totally completely standard for many players at those stakes (shorthanded 1/2 limit and above). its the turn call that is questionable

Victor

11-09-2006, 10:59 PM

this is essentially a math problem. i imagine enon has done the math but bryce hasnt.

cbloom

11-09-2006, 11:00 PM

Her play here is totally awful. That's not that bad though because in fixed bet hold them it's just a game of who gets lucky on the river!!

Victor

11-09-2006, 11:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
the flop peel is totally completely standard for many players at those stakes (shorthanded 1/2 limit and above). its the turn call that is questionable

[/ QUOTE ]

so standard means its correct?

Arnfinn Madsen

11-09-2006, 11:03 PM

Well_TiMeD

11-09-2006, 11:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the flop peel is totally completely standard for many players at those stakes (shorthanded 1/2 limit and above). its the turn call that is questionable

[/ QUOTE ]

so standard means its correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe- it depends on the flow of the match, (exactly how many ppl were at the table, i dont remember) and meta game stuff. for example if shes plannin on raise a turn, or river its fine. not 2 mention she does have backdoor draws and an ovecard.. so no mathematically its not correct but calling this flop is not a bad play

The Bryce

11-09-2006, 11:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this is essentially a math problem. i imagine enon has done the math but bryce hasnt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure you're not just biased towards disagreeing with everything I say? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Victor

11-09-2006, 11:07 PM

"for example if shes plannin on raise a turn, or river its fine"

oh wow, pls dont bluff raise my 3bets with jhigh on the big streets. i hate when players do that. i would proly leave the table in the face of such expert play.

Enon

11-09-2006, 11:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the flop peel is totally completely standard for many players at those stakes (shorthanded 1/2 limit and above). its the turn call that is questionable

[/ QUOTE ]

so standard means its correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

If her play is close to correct, then I seriously need to reevaluate my peeling standards hu in these shorthanded games.

Well_TiMeD

11-09-2006, 11:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"for example if shes plannin on raise a turn, or river its fine"

oh wow, pls dont bluff raise my 3bets with jhigh on the big streets. i hate when players do that. i would proly leave the table in the face of such expert play.

[/ QUOTE ]
nice response. good job looking straight past the point. have you ever played in one of these games? were you watching the past hundreds of hands between these two players? you have no idea what your talkin about, so stfu with the pathetic simplistic responses. I didnt say her play was correct, but ask any experienced high stakes player and they will tell you they would absolutely consider a flop call under the right circumstances. berating her flop play is downright retarted, almost as stupid as claiming it all comes down to a math problem.

stinkypete

11-09-2006, 11:12 PM

it all comes down to a math problem.

The Bryce

11-09-2006, 11:14 PM

Enon, this is a pretty easy thing to get a handle on. Just open up stove, run the flop equity and then run the turn equity when some of those outs are picked up to see what the implied is like (looks like a 5 is good a bit over half the time and a J close to 60%). Flop peel looks good and the turn peel is a bit short.

Victor

11-09-2006, 11:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"for example if shes plannin on raise a turn, or river its fine"

oh wow, pls dont bluff raise my 3bets with jhigh on the big streets. i hate when players do that. i would proly leave the table in the face of such expert play.

[/ QUOTE ]
nice response. good job looking straight past the point. have you ever played in one of these games? were you watching the past hundreds of hands between these two players? you have no idea what your talkin about, so stfu with the pathetic simplistic responses. I didnt say her play was correct, but ask any experienced high stakes player and they will tell you they would absolutely consider a flop call under the right circumstances. berating her flop play is downright retarted, almost as stupid as claiming it all comes down to a math problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

you seriously, think peeling the flop with the intention of bluff raising the turn is a good play here? it is math. enon has a high percentage of showdownable hands and on this board he aint folding.

edit to say he aint folding enough of them.

Well_TiMeD

11-09-2006, 11:22 PM

not every time. thats not what im suggesting.. her jack or 5 could be good, on top of the aforementioned backdoor draws. She might get checked to sometimes; combined with all that, betting or raising this turn (not necessarily FREQUENTLY) makes calling this flop fine.

stinkypete

11-09-2006, 11:22 PM

i highly doubt she was calling with the intention of bluffing later on

Victor

11-09-2006, 11:26 PM

welltimed, what stakes do you play?

A_C_Slater

11-09-2006, 11:27 PM

lol at total bluff raising in limit. No one ever folds anything ever for any reason whatsoever.

No.

Never.

The Bryce

11-09-2006, 11:33 PM

WT, don't mind Victor. He's right that there isn't enough value in a turn raise to count some extra outs here, but thinking in that direction is something that most people don't catch and it's perfectly legitimate to point that angle out.

NLfool

11-09-2006, 11:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
lol at total bluff raising in limit. No one ever folds anything ever for any reason whatsoever.

No.

Never.

[/ QUOTE ]

SH limit explained in 30 words or less.

Scary_Tiger

11-09-2006, 11:49 PM

Yes, I've been working with Jenn lately and folding this flop is bad. We have position, 4 cards give us a straight and flush draw, 6 other cards give us a flush draw, we have 6 cards that give us an 8 out straight draw, 6 outs to a pair that's frequently good, and then 6 more cards give us a gutshot. The only problem with peeling this flop is it's hard to tell whether we should peel on the turn if we hit one of those 6 cards that gives us a gutshot and not a flush draw. But I certainly would versus some opponents, not Enon specifically, but versus certain opponents I definitely would.

If this hand is badly played, it's just barely.

A_C_Slater

11-09-2006, 11:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I've been working with Jenn lately and folding this flop is bad. We have position, 4 cards give us a straight and flush draw, 6 other cards give us a flush draw, we have 6 cards that give us an 8 out straight draw, 6 outs to a pair that's frequently good, and then 6 more cards give us a gutshot. The only problem with peeling this flop is it's hard to tell whether we should peel on the turn if we hit one of those 6 cards that gives us a gutshot and not a flush draw. But I certainly would versus some opponents, not Enon specifically, but versus certain opponents I definitely would.

If this hand is badly played, it's just barely.

[/ QUOTE ]

So basically what you're saying is that against a preflop 3 bettor heads up we should call on the flop just about anytime because one will always have some kind of backdoor draw or backdoor two pair that could possibly win us the pot. Ok now I know how the top LHE players think. Thank you.

ShakeZula06

11-10-2006, 12:05 AM

I cringed at the check/call on the river, isn't this either a bet/fold or a check/fold?

nuggetz87

11-10-2006, 12:15 AM

hold on, let me check if my cards are suited.

kahntrutahn

11-10-2006, 12:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]

If this hand is badly played, it's just barely.

[/ QUOTE ]

I concur

Scary_Tiger

11-10-2006, 12:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I've been working with Jenn lately and folding this flop is bad. We have position, 4 cards give us a straight and flush draw, 6 other cards give us a flush draw, we have 6 cards that give us an 8 out straight draw, 6 outs to a pair that's frequently good, and then 6 more cards give us a gutshot. The only problem with peeling this flop is it's hard to tell whether we should peel on the turn if we hit one of those 6 cards that gives us a gutshot and not a flush draw. But I certainly would versus some opponents, not Enon specifically, but versus certain opponents I definitely would.

If this hand is badly played, it's just barely.

[/ QUOTE ]

So basically what you're saying is that against a preflop 3 bettor heads up we should call on the flop just about anytime because one will always have some kind of backdoor draw or backdoor two pair that could possibly win us the pot. Ok now I know how the top LHE players think. Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

OH NOES! HE 3-BET PREFLOP. ZOMG THE TERROR.

SB 3-bet of Button raise is not the same as an UTG+1 3-bet of an UTG raise.

A_C_Slater

11-10-2006, 12:49 AM

I know, just wanted to make fun.

Victor

11-10-2006, 12:51 AM

"OH NOES! HE 3-BET PREFLOP. ZOMG THE TERROR.

SB 3-bet of Button raise is not the same as an UTG+1 3-bet of an UTG raise. "

relatively, its not that diff. she has j5 for crhissakes.

Spechel EDD

11-10-2006, 12:55 AM

BRAAAA Check-Raise the turn

zipppy

11-10-2006, 01:02 AM

WTF PEOPLE. I thought I was opening a hand in bbv, not "high stakes let's figure out how to play correct poker" forum. OP=beat. let's focus on that.

preflop? ahead.
flop? ahead.
turn? ahead.
river? stars.

ZIP"PLAYINGMINBETWELLISANOXYMORON"PPY

KRANTZ

11-10-2006, 01:11 AM

reminder: this is BBV

is jennicide hot?

zipppy

11-10-2006, 01:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
reminder: this is BBV

is jennicide hot?

[/ QUOTE ]

judge for yourself.

BBV....I PRESENT YOU WITH GRAPHICAL EVIDENCES:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e171/zippppy/jennicide.jpg

Dan BRIGHT

11-10-2006, 01:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
reminder: this is BBV

is jennicide hot?

[/ QUOTE ]

judge for yourself.

BBV....I PRESENT YOU WITH GRAPHICAL EVIDENCES:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e171/zippppy/jennicide.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

lololololoo

Well_TiMeD

11-10-2006, 01:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"OH NOES! HE 3-BET PREFLOP. ZOMG THE TERROR.

SB 3-bet of Button raise is not the same as an UTG+1 3-bet of an UTG raise. "

relatively, its not that diff. she has j5 for crhissakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

your problem is that you think that way and its very narrowminded. and to answer your question ive played limit hold em HU, at stakes 5x higher than 100 200

zipppy

11-10-2006, 01:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]

your problem is that you think

[/ QUOTE ]

qft

Dan BRIGHT

11-10-2006, 01:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"OH NOES! HE 3-BET PREFLOP. ZOMG THE TERROR.

SB 3-bet of Button raise is not the same as an UTG+1 3-bet of an UTG raise. "

relatively, its not that diff. she has j5 for crhissakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

your problem is that you think that way and its very narrowminded. and to answer your question ive played limit hold em HU, at stakes 5x higher than 100 200

[/ QUOTE ]

500/1000 amirite?

vhawk01

11-10-2006, 01:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"OH NOES! HE 3-BET PREFLOP. ZOMG THE TERROR.

SB 3-bet of Button raise is not the same as an UTG+1 3-bet of an UTG raise. "

relatively, its not that diff. she has j5 for crhissakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

your problem is that you think that way and its very narrowminded. and to answer your question ive played limit hold em HU, at stakes 5x higher than 100 200

[/ QUOTE ]

500/1000 amirite?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its fun because he lets us get there at our own pace.

Well_TiMeD

11-10-2006, 01:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]

500/1000 amirite?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes

Dan BRIGHT

11-10-2006, 01:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

500/1000 amirite?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes

[/ QUOTE ]

I have played lhe for 1/5th the stakes that you have. Can you submit a guess as to what stakes those are?

Well_TiMeD

11-10-2006, 01:31 AM

lol

Enon

11-10-2006, 01:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I've been working with Jenn lately and folding this flop is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait a sec, she is coaching you?

Enon

11-10-2006, 01:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

500/1000 amirite?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes

[/ QUOTE ]

I have played lhe for 1/5th the stakes that you have. Can you submit a guess as to what stakes those are?

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha. VNH.

Scary_Tiger

11-10-2006, 01:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
scary tiger coached her?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I've been working with Jenn lately and folding this flop is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait a sec, she is coaching you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Enon

11-10-2006, 01:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I cringed at the check/call on the river, isn't this either a bet/fold or a check/fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, can't defend my river play. It's a check fold. I can't always play expertly like Jenn /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

siccjay

11-10-2006, 02:41 AM

Jennicide,

I know you have read this thread. Please post in it and try to be funny. I have faith in you.

Thanks,
sicc

iggymcfly

11-10-2006, 03:34 AM

I LOL'd at the graph. Quite amusing.

brick

11-10-2006, 04:04 AM

how do people who registered in 06 know about pattern mappers?
I have seen this mentioned in years.

TobiasFunke

11-10-2006, 04:17 AM

When I think about Jennicide peeling it has nothing to do with the turn card.

Jay.

11-10-2006, 08:48 AM

flop call is ok-nice. turn call is bad.

DJ_Northstar

11-10-2006, 09:14 AM

shoulda berated in chat

JDalla

11-10-2006, 09:29 AM

I don't make this flop call, which is why I dominate 10/20, beat 15/30, squeeze out profit in 30/60, and lose 50/100 and up. Then again, I don't really raise this on the button anyway.

DeathDonkey

11-10-2006, 08:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I cringed at the check/call on the river, isn't this either a bet/fold or a check/fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, can't defend my river play. It's a check fold. I can't always play expertly like Jenn /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you Enon, I think she only played the river right (even I might fold this hand preflop!).

Also, I'd probably put some money on Victor to beat Well_Timed heads up just based on this thread and knowing Victor.

-DeathDonkey

FULL RAKE

11-10-2006, 08:36 PM

If DD played this hand, 6th street would have brought the Ace of purple horseshoes

Well_TiMeD

11-10-2006, 08:50 PM

glad u can make that judgement based off not knowing me and readin just this thread. must be a genius

Spechel EDD

11-10-2006, 09:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
BRAAAA Check-Raise the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

BRAAAAA Quoting this again

nath

11-10-2006, 10:05 PM

i thought this thread was going to be about her makeup and/or skin tone

jfish

11-10-2006, 11:12 PM

the people saying that jennicide played this well prove exactly why limit is an endless neurotic grind.

gimmetheloot

11-11-2006, 01:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
reminder: this is BBV

is jennicide hot?

[/ QUOTE ]

judge for yourself.

BBV....I PRESENT YOU WITH GRAPHICAL EVIDENCES:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e171/zippppy/jennicide.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

lololololoo

[/ QUOTE ]

^^actually Jennicide?