What would it take for you to believe in.....

[kurto]

Let's try a different direction....
This is strictly for the Christians....


What would it take for you to believe in ZEUS:


What would it take for you to believe in THE MUSLIM GOD:


What would it take for you to believe in AHURA MAZDA (Zorastrianism)?


BONUS QUESTION-
Please compare the standard of proof you have used with your own faith and compare that to what you have done exploring the possibility of each of the above 3 Gods.

[surftheiop]

I would have to know they exist like i know God exists.
Not that hard really.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have to know they exist like i know God exists.
Not that hard really.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was a fantastic non-answer. In order to believe in them you would have to believe in them. Ok, now go ahead and tell us what it would TAKE for you to believe in them like you believe in your specific version of God.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have to know they exist like i know God exists.
Not that hard really.

[/ QUOTE ]

About as satisfactory answer as I would expect. ie... no proof required for the religion you believe in... no attempt at confirming the validity of other religions.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's try a different direction....
This is strictly for the Christians....


What would it take for you to believe in ZEUS:


What would it take for you to believe in THE MUSLIM GOD:


What would it take for you to believe in AHURA MAZDA (Zorastrianism)?


BONUS QUESTION-
Please compare the standard of proof you have used with your own faith and compare that to what you have done exploring the possibility of each of the above 3 Gods.

[/ QUOTE ]
It would have to feel right to me - your favorite "heart" argument.

I did read relatively widely (though not so widely as to include zeus) in a search for what "felt" right and settled on the best I could find. Although I claim to have rational reason to believe in God, I can think of no rational way to choose a religion. So I find myself having to relate to God in some way, but being unable to decide how to do that rationally. Consequently, I do the best I can, which is to make an irrational choice, but explore the consequences of that choice and ensure they are consistent with the rest of my beliefs.

I acknowledge that parts of my religion may be mistaken (and given the variety of spiritual beliefs over the ages I believe it's pretty much a certainty that we have it wrong at least in part). I dont see any choice though, as refusing to accept any religion without proof is itself a choice about the relationship with the god that I believe in. This in itself seems to be a religion - if religion can be defined to be (or at least to include) the way you relate to god.

This doesnt mean I accept what a theological expert says uncritically - I think it is fairly obvious that the church has had (and continues to have) many agendas besides promoting a close relationship with god in its membership. As such, I think it is true that some of what has been called "god's word" is in fact the work of human invention. I think it is an important part of being christian that you critcally evaluate claims made by your church and ensure that the way they say to live matches the way god is telling you to live.

(Back to the "heart" argument again)

[surftheiop]

Ok fine Im sure some of the religons you listed have some of these charectoristics but none would have all.
First off Christianity is not a religon, its a relationship.

I would have to see the miracles ive witnessed, recounts of miracles ive had related to me from primary sources, the ability to feel closeness to god, the testimonies of the people around me, the ability to feel when im far from god and need to refocus my life on him, the peace i have knowing that what ever happens in my life in the end im going to be in heaven forever, the support of a community that continualy has these sames experiences as me, the "feel of the heart" that bunny describes, the moral standard God provides, the filling of the void in all our beings that only God can fill up (the thing that causes people to seek fame, forutune, fun, knowledge etc., a reason for the existence of the universe, a reason for good, a reason for evil(free will), the relationship with God is what it comes down to.

I cant rationaly prove God to you but, once a person has taken the step of faith and lived with God that person could never rationaly deny him.

[kurto]

Hi, Bunny.

What I find interesting about theists is that... even given the irrationality of Faith, I find a further level of irrationality in the selection of their faith.

That is--
Most people have not searched for and checked out alternative religions. I don't have statistics but I'm fairly certain you will find that most passionate theists can find a correlation between what Faith they choose and their geographic location and place in history.

Had one been born in Mexico from around 1200 BC to 400 BC, you would have no doubt worshipped and believed in Huitzilopochtli.

If you were born in Afghanistan today you would likely find yourself 'feeling' the God of Islam.

Txag is fond of saying how you must invite God into your heart. Yet I'm more then willing to bet he never invited other Gods into his heart, prayed to them, wished for them to show him the light.

I understand that people have their faith and that's all well and good. But when I see these threads where christians like txag keep saying you simply have to invite God into your heart, I'm troubled by the fact that they haven't given other religions the same 'chance' as they've given theirs.

Also... since other religions will feel as fervently about their faith as Christians. Wouldn't the logical answer be that everyone's feeling the same thing... but they all attribute it to a different God... therefore, its probably not God.

I know my brother who is a born again has never considered another religion. He's never looked into them, studied them or even been exposed to them. Yet he knows his is right and all the other people are wrong. When asked how he explains why his 'feelings' are right and everyone else is wrong... the answer is literally just "because I know." I remind him that Jews/Muslims/whoever also just know... he doesn't seem to think that's significant.

I always find this troubling.

On another note- I intentionally included Zorastrianism simply because it has so many parallels to Christianity. People have argued that many of the tenants of Christianity were borrowed from this religion. I'm willing to bet that most Christians (other then Txag) are aware of it. I'm always curious if most would even given a second thought to the parallels.

[vhawk01]

Christianity isnt a religion, its a relationship? Can I get that on a bumper-sticker?

P.S. Christianity is a religion.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
I know my brother who is a born again has never considered another religion. He's never looked into them, studied them or even been exposed to them. Yet he knows his is right and all the other people are wrong. When asked how he explains why his 'feelings' are right and everyone else is wrong... the answer is literally just "because I know." I remind him that Jews/Muslims/whoever also just know... he doesn't seem to think that's significant.

I always find this troubling.

On another note- I intentionally included Zorastrianism simply because it has so many parallels to Christianity. People have argued that many of the tenants of Christianity were borrowed from this religion. I'm willing to bet that most Christians (other then Txag) are aware of it. I'm always curious if most would even given a second thought to the parallels.


[/ QUOTE ]

You'd bet on that!?
Nope. Most xtians are a version of your brother, not aware of all the same mythology in pre-xtian religions. Whether the human scape-goat, or the resurrection , etc.

You find it troubling. It's the blocking out of alternatives that makes religion scary and the followers manipulable. ( well, ok, one reason).

luckyme

[brashbrother]

[ QUOTE ]
What would it take for you to believe in ZEUS:

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really worthy of worship. Prone to childish actions, including seeking revenge and petty jealousy. Also, no real claims as to authenticity of his sovereignty, since History has shown the Greek Myths to be well, mythological. Has not stood the test of time, in other words.

[ QUOTE ]

What would it take for you to believe in THE MUSLIM GOD:


[/ QUOTE ]

Parts of Islam make this a close call, including their common ancestry with Abraham. However, the prophets tell of the Christ as the Messiah, so once Muhammad's teachings come in and say that Christ was a mere mortal prophet, and Muhammad's words are more important, it loses much credibilty.

[ QUOTE ]
What would it take for you to believe in AHURA MAZDA (Zorastrianism)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have to be born into it, apparently. They generally do not accept converts. It makes no sense that our creator would not want to commune with us.


[ QUOTE ]

BONUS QUESTION-
Please compare the standard of proof you have used with your own faith and compare that to what you have done exploring the possibility of each of the above 3 Gods.

[/ QUOTE ]

God's law is written on my heart (read:conscience) so I feel a need to follow it. Once I realized I was apart from God's law (read: a sinner) I wished to correct this. Once this decision was made, it was obvious to me that God's word was the Bible, and Christ was the path to communion with God.

Despite the thousands of opponents and skeptics, the existence of God and the veracity of the Bible are still commonly accepted. Being a man of science, I took the time to satisfy my curiosity regarding the scientific explanation specifically of Creation, and came away with a stronger belief than before. Perhaps unexplainable to you, I have seen the effects of God in my life, my marriage, and in my kids' lives.

[vhawk01]

Comical.

P.S. you are still every bit as much of a sinner as you ever have been. Congrats!

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What would it take for you to believe in ZEUS:

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really worthy of worship. Prone to childish actions, including seeking revenge and petty jealousy. Also, no real claims as to authenticity of his sovereignty, since History has shown the Greek Myths to be well, mythological. Has not stood the test of time, in other words.

[ QUOTE ]

What would it take for you to believe in THE MUSLIM GOD:


[/ QUOTE ]

Parts of Islam make this a close call, including their common ancestry with Abraham. However, the prophets tell of the Christ as the Messiah, so once Muhammad's teachings come in and say that Christ was a mere mortal prophet, and Muhammad's words are more important, it loses much credibilty.

[ QUOTE ]
What would it take for you to believe in AHURA MAZDA (Zorastrianism)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have to be born into it, apparently. They generally do not accept converts. It makes no sense that our creator would not want to commune with us.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow

especially this one

[ QUOTE ]
Not really worthy of worship. Prone to childish actions, including seeking revenge and petty jealousy.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Semtex]

I'm not positive but I always thought that the "Muslim God" and the "Zoroastrian God" were essentially the same thing as the "Christian God." If people want to get caught up in factional BS (which they usually do because my God is better than your God obviously) thats their deal, but in reality GOD is GOD is GOD.

[hmkpoker]

Violent coercion.

[bunny]

You find it troubling - it's worse when you discover you believe in god. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I cant find a rational way to choose between religions, merely a rational way to exclude some (hence I have rationally excluded literal christianity in favor of a wussier, more consistent kind). I can accept that (although reluctantly) as I dont see it as evidence against god, merely evidence that my spirtual beliefs are incorrect in some way.

The fact there are lots of contradictory religions could indicate a non-god source of my connection with god. Alternatively, it could be the result of cultural influence on genuine spirtual revelation.

It's part of why I am not a passionate believer in my church, although I am in god. Although raised an atheist, it was in a christian-dominated country and I can hardly ignore the geographic correlation you mention. My personal experience only goes as far as god - certainly in my case there's no internal guide as to whether baptists, catholics or presbyterians have "got it right" (let alone zeusians or zoroastrians or ...). My opinion is that none of them have.

[ConstantineX]

Strange, I feel Jehovah's prop bet with Satan over Job's entire livelihood to be a "childish action."

Does it not state explictly in the OT "for, the Lord thy God, am a jealous god"?
Jehovah/Yahweh/whatever is just as brutish as the gods of the most ancient religions, save those which were active proponents of blood (human) sacrifice.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
Also... since other religions will feel as fervently about their faith as Christians. Wouldn't the logical answer be that everyone's feeling the same thing... but they all attribute it to a different God... therefore, its probably not God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course you are right. If 2+2 was frequented primarily by Muslims then you'd have the same arguments about how they "just know" Allah is in their hearts, and once you experience it you will know too.

All these "feelings" people take as their personal evidence for god can be very easily explained without resorting to supernatural fairy tales. Ex: Why might a person in prison suddenly "hear god's voice"? Why might an alcoholic rely on "god's help" to overcome his addiction? The answers are obvious and could probably be explained by most 1st-year psych students.

[surftheiop]

You wanna explain why a friend of mine had one kidney her whole life, in her twenties she was gonna have some sort kidney operation, people from my church met and prayed for her and when she went to have the operation in some sort of pre-op scan the puzzled surgeon told her she had two normal kidneys?

I mean obviously doctors had been feeding her bogus information for the past 20 odd years of her life.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok fine Im sure some of the religons you listed have some of these charectoristics but none would have all.
First off Christianity is not a religon, its a relationship.

I would have to see the miracles ive witnessed, recounts of miracles ive had related to me from primary sources, the ability to feel closeness to god, the testimonies of the people around me, the ability to feel when im far from god and need to refocus my life on him, the peace i have knowing that what ever happens in my life in the end im going to be in heaven forever, the support of a community that continualy has these sames experiences as me, the "feel of the heart" that bunny describes, the moral standard God provides, the filling of the void in all our beings that only God can fill up (the thing that causes people to seek fame, forutune, fun, knowledge etc., a reason for the existence of the universe, a reason for good, a reason for evil(free will), the relationship with God is what it comes down to.

I cant rationaly prove God to you but, once a person has taken the step of faith and lived with God that person could never rationaly deny him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everything you listed can be claimed by people of other religions. If you lived in another culture raised by another religion, you'd say the same thing about a different god.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
All these "feelings" people take as their personal evidence for god can be very easily explained without resorting to supernatural fairy tales. Ex: Why might a person in prison suddenly "hear god's voice"? Why might an alcoholic rely on "god's help" to overcome his addiction? The answers are obvious and could probably be explained by most 1st-year psych students.

[/ QUOTE ]
How about a perfectly happy mathematician who takes the view that rationality should be paramount? Who believes that people who rely on theism for their morals are taking the easy way out? And one who expects to be able to solve any problem he puts his mind to as long as he thinks hard enough?

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
How about a perfectly happy mathematician who takes the view that rationality should be paramount?

[/ QUOTE ]

A mathematician would be happier with a perfect balance, as irrationality is always a factor in esoteric math.

[ QUOTE ]
And one who expects to be able to solve any problem he puts his mind to as long as he thinks hard enough?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh. If he doesn't recognize his own limitations, this could be a problem. If he has yet to scrape the ceiling on his own limitations, he should feel free to try.

[Hopey]

[ QUOTE ]
You wanna explain why a friend of mine had one kidney her whole life, in her twenties she was gonna have some sort kidney operation, people from my church met and prayed for her and when she went to have the operation in some sort of pre-op scan the puzzled surgeon told her she had two normal kidneys?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds more like a Christian urban legend than something that actually happened to a "friend of yours". Of course, it makes your story more believable if you claim that this happened to a "friend of yours", so I don't totally blame you for going this route.

[ QUOTE ]

I mean obviously doctors had been feeding her bogus information for the past 20 odd years of her life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lies make baby Jesus cry, dude.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
You wanna explain why a friend of mine had one kidney her whole life, in her twenties she was gonna have some sort kidney operation, people from my church met and prayed for her and when she went to have the operation in some sort of pre-op scan the puzzled surgeon told her she had two normal kidneys?

I mean obviously doctors had been feeding her bogus information for the past 20 odd years of her life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously.

Seriously though, that really happened? It wasn't her spleen? Because a lot of people have these things called splenules which hang out around their spleen, and are vestigial lymphatic tissue which generally does nothing. However, when you get a splenectomy, these splenules can start to hypertrophy and you essentially can spontaneously regrow a spleen. Many doctors have been shocked by this, but it happens. I've never heard of this happening with a kidney, and in fact I don't think it could. I mean, she could have had 3 kidneys I guess. Embryologically thats possible, but I don't know of any way that someone can spontaneously regrow a kidney. If this wasn't some third-party, likely-apocryphal story, I would be extremely interested by this. The fact that she wasn't in the NEJM leans towards her, you or her doctors being mistaken. If I had to handicap I would say the likelihood is you>>>doctors>her.

EDIT: Upon further contemplation your story sounds EXACTLY like the likely-apocryphal one that we hear as first years about a persons spleen regrowing to the consternation and surprise of the doctors, which is followed by an explanation of how that happens. I like my urban legend better because its designed to remind us of gross anatomy and not designed to trick us about the magical powers of our professors.

[brashbrother]

[ QUOTE ]
Strange, I feel Jehovah's prop bet with Satan over Job's entire livelihood to be a "childish action."

Does it not state explictly in the OT "for, the Lord thy God, am a jealous god"?
Jehovah/Yahweh/whatever is just as brutish as the gods of the most ancient religions, save those which were active proponents of blood (human) sacrifice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, are you trying to argue that Zeus might be considered as real as the Christian God? I was just listing some examples which I thought off hand made Zeus unlikely to be considered to be a true deity. God's jealousy is described in the Bible as in jealous of his children's time and love. I specifically mentioned "petty jealousy" with my intended emphasis on "petty," not trying to say that jealousy was necessarily a non-theistic quality. And, if you will re-read the account of Job, you will hopefully see that Satan is the instigator of the series of calamities to befall Job. God's concern was for Job's free will to choose Him, which it was pointed out to him by Satan, had not been tested due to the abundant wealth and happiness afforded to Job up until then. True love is unconditional cooperation, despite repeated negative effects, so Satan attempted to show that Job was likely to curse God and die when the REAL negatives began to happen. 'Course, Job handled it pretty well.

As for Zeus, how about we just say he is no longer worshipped or considered by any religious scholar to be anything more than mythological, and say that any supreme being has to have a persistent following. I would think the very definition of the word "myth" would make this a moot point; at any rate there really is no scholarly claim as to the possible current belief in the deification of Zeus.

[vhawk01]

Wanna take a stab at the length of time that Zeus was worshipped? Over/under on 2006 years?

[brashbrother]

[ QUOTE ]
Wanna take a stab at the length of time that Zeus was worshipped? Over/under on 2006 years?

[/ QUOTE ]

4.2 billion? I don't know. Why did you choose 2006? God has been worshipped since Creation.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
A mathematician would be happier with a perfect balance, as irrationality is always a factor in esoteric math.


[/ QUOTE ]
Can you justify this?

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wanna take a stab at the length of time that Zeus was worshipped? Over/under on 2006 years?

[/ QUOTE ]

4.2 billion? I don't know. Why did you choose 2006? God has been worshipped since Creation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find wide spread monotheism over hundereds of thousands of years...

oh, wait, I'm sorry, I forgot that the world is less than 10 thousand years old...my bad

[brashbrother]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wanna take a stab at the length of time that Zeus was worshipped? Over/under on 2006 years?

[/ QUOTE ]

4.2 billion? I don't know. Why did you choose 2006? God has been worshipped since Creation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find wide spread monotheism over hundereds of thousands of years...

oh, wait, I'm sorry, I forgot that the world is less than 10 thousand years old...my bad

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that most theists recognize that a literal seven days may not have been all that Creation took...right? That to God, a day is like a thousand years, and thousand years is like a day...

But anyway, you'd be hard-pressed to find historical evidence of well, anything, for that long, since recorded history is about 5-6,000 years.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A mathematician would be happier with a perfect balance, as irrationality is always a factor in esoteric math.


[/ QUOTE ]
Can you justify this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Only in mathematical terms. sqrt(-1), and, yes, that's an imaginary number.

And math is my first language, and I repeat myself in stating that.

I walk around realizing I'm a constantly shifting and redefining equation in an Universe of equations.

Humans are irrational, things happen in this civilization that can't be explained in rational terms. A woman's toddler gets stuck under a car, No amount of biological explanation accounting for the disparity between PE and kinetic capability and adrendaline makes it possible for her to lift the Yugo and get her precious child clear of the vehicle. She wants to, so she can.

Bumblebees defy basic aerodynamic principles. So either the principles are wrong (Nope, it doesn't seem to be) or the bumblebees are cheating.

An individual death doesn't cause a negative balance in the mass of the Universe, or for that matter, Earth.

So a harmonic balance for a pure mathematican has to account for rationality and irrationality, if only because it is a human perception that rationality is a positive. And in mathematics, there is no stable zero without a balance between the positive and negative existing in two dimensions.

So if you perceive rationality to be a net gain, then irrationality must exist or there is no potential for growth in rationality. You can create an infinite set out of anything numerically, whether they be irrational or imaginary numbers and have it ever-expanding.

Individual irrational numbers have no end, so they pretty much expand ad infinitium and infinity is both a net gain and a net loss on a +/- scale, but it is constant growth.

The speed of sound is shattered daily. The speed of light can be violated. And those are natural, physical laws that can be broken. In time, this should be true of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Don't ask me how. I don't know yet. You can be sure I'll spend the rest of my natural lifetime trying to figure that one out. Everything else's comparably easy in hindsight.

Quantum theory's just a different kind of music to me. I feel it, I understand it, I just can't get to the point where I can write the sheet notation for it.

So did I justify my earlier statement? Maybe not. But that's how I see the Universe and I can't perceive of one even existing without irrationality, because the potential for infinity won't be there, and it'll be a failed Universe destined for self-collapse.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wanna take a stab at the length of time that Zeus was worshipped? Over/under on 2006 years?

[/ QUOTE ]

4.2 billion? I don't know. Why did you choose 2006? God has been worshipped since Creation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find wide spread monotheism over hundereds of thousands of years...

oh, wait, I'm sorry, I forgot that the world is less than 10 thousand years old...my bad

[/ QUOTE ]

Bona Dea...

I like Roman and Greek mythology. I think they have applicable properties today. The worst thing to come out of Rome was Christianity's foothold and spread. The gods were pragmatic, they were paid respect. They sure as hell weren't used to justify wars, rape and pillage.

If monotheism is the way, so are forceful, controlling, non-benevolent dictatorships. I don't [censored] think so.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
You wanna explain why a friend of mine had one kidney her whole life, in her twenties she was gonna have some sort kidney operation, people from my church met and prayed for her and when she went to have the operation in some sort of pre-op scan the puzzled surgeon told her she had two normal kidneys?

I mean obviously doctors had been feeding her bogus information for the past 20 odd years of her life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good one! Most other religions have experienced such phenomena. Even atheists, gulp! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

PS In Lourdes (christian shrine) the number of remissions per pilgrim is lower than in the world at large. Ah yes.. they are not "real" christians, right?

[arahant]

To me, it's a question of 'best fit'. I know someone is out to get me; I know they are powerful enough to screw me in all sorts of innovative ways, at any time, in any place; I strongly suspect they are 'vengeful'...

That said, the muslim god really is the same as the christian god, and this is the god i choose. Basically, i don't find from my research that the other gods are hateful or powerful enough.

In order to believe in one of these other gods, I'd need to quit getting #@#!@$ rivered, not get pulled over for speeding for 5 years, and never come home to find my girlfriend in bed with the mailman.

[ConstantineX]

If parts of the Creation story aren't meant to be taken literally, what makes you think there was a Creation in the first place?

[arahant]

I guess i should google this, but i'm here now...i'm confused by your edit...can one 'regrow' a spleen from splenules or not?

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]
You wanna explain why a friend of mine had one kidney her whole life, in her twenties she was gonna have some sort kidney operation, people from my church met and prayed for her and when she went to have the operation in some sort of pre-op scan the puzzled surgeon told her she had two normal kidneys?

I mean obviously doctors had been feeding her bogus information for the past 20 odd years of her life.

[/ QUOTE ]
Please restore part of my faith in humanity.
Tell us you are trolling.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wanna take a stab at the length of time that Zeus was worshipped? Over/under on 2006 years?

[/ QUOTE ]

4.2 billion? I don't know. Why did you choose 2006? God has been worshipped since Creation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which God?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess i should google this, but i'm here now...i'm confused by your edit...can one 'regrow' a spleen from splenules or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. One CAN regrow a spleen, basically entirely. This actually happens. As far as I know, one CANNOT regrow a kidney. I was just thinking that surf got his anecdotes mixed up.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]

How about a perfectly happy mathematician who takes the view that rationality should be paramount? Who believes that people who rely on theism for their morals are taking the easy way out? And one who expects to be able to solve any problem he puts his mind to as long as he thinks hard enough?

[/ QUOTE ]

I a not trying to mock the feelings that anyone personally experienced that led them to believe in god. I am only saying that these feelings can very likely be explained by other, far more probable, causes.

It is true that many rational, educated, happy people "hear god's voice", or "feel him in their heart", etc. It does not only apply to people in crisis. But I still maintain that the reasons they feel this are MUCH more likely to come from within their own brains than an all-powerful god communicating with them.

Why might a seemingly happy, rational athiest suddenly feel god in their hearts? I don't know. Maybe a feeling that reason is inadequate to answer the unanswerable questions. Maybe a feeling of insignificance in the vast universe. Maybe the inability to comprehend our own eventual non-existence. Maybe an existential "what's the point"? I'd imagine there are almost as many reasons for people to think they are hearing god, as there are people.

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
You do realize that most theists recognize that a literal seven days may not have been all that Creation took...right? That to God, a day is like a thousand years, and thousand years is like a day...


[/ QUOTE ]

in that case..God is still off by billions of years /images/graemlins/grin.gif

and yes, I acknowledge that religions throughout history give supernatural explainations for unexplained things...then when these things are finally explained, people scramble to reconcile it with their beliefs

christianity is not falsifiable..since it can make random postulations to try to reconcile it with reality and never have to provide any evidence that is indeed so...so it is no surprise that it hasn't been falsified

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wanna take a stab at the length of time that Zeus was worshipped? Over/under on 2006 years?

[/ QUOTE ]

4.2 billion? I don't know. Why did you choose 2006? God has been worshipped since Creation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find wide spread monotheism over hundereds of thousands of years...

oh, wait, I'm sorry, I forgot that the world is less than 10 thousand years old...my bad

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that most theists recognize that a literal seven days may not have been all that Creation took...right? That to God, a day is like a thousand years, and thousand years is like a day...

But anyway, you'd be hard-pressed to find historical evidence of well, anything, for that long, since recorded history is about 5-6,000 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

A day is like a thousand days, a thousand days like a day, ordering people to death is like not ordering people to death, its all so confusing.

[kurto]

There are a lot of urban legends about this stuff. But there have been numerous tests on the power of prayer. And they have found no statistical difference in patients who are prayed for and those who aren't.

The amusing Whywontgodhealamputees covers this amusing phenomenon where Christians convince themselves despite all evidence and logic that prayer works.

A small excerpt:
[ QUOTE ]
When a prayer is answered, what is happening? It is nothing but a coincidence. We know this without a doubt in two different ways:

If we look at disease remission rates for praying people vs. non-praying people, and we control for all variables like income, known risk factors, etc., disease remission rates for the two groups are identical. People who pray for a cure gain no advantage from prayer.

We can take 200 sick people. With 100 of them we create a prayer circle and we pray for them. With the other 100 we do not. Then we look at what happens to those two groups of people. We find that both groups have the same outcome. The prayed-for group does not recuperate faster or live longer.
You can pick any disease. If you analyze both the successes AND the failures of prayer, you will find the same thing. It does not matter how many people pray, how often they pray, how sincere they are or how devout and worthy the patient is. It simply is a fact that, statistically, God ignores all medical prayers. Plenty of scientific studies confirm it, as shown in this article:

In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.
See also this page.
Yes, there are people who do pray and live, and their stories sound convincing. But the only reason that they sound convincing is because the millions of people who pray and die never get to tell their stories.


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[kurto]

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Seriously, are you trying to argue that Zeus might be considered as real as the Christian God?

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Of course. He was worshiped by countless people for a long time using the same standard of proof that all theists use today: faith.

[ QUOTE ]
As for Zeus, how about we just say he is no longer worshipped or considered by any religious scholar to be anything more than mythological, and say that any supreme being has to have a persistent following. I would think the very definition of the word "myth" would make this a moot point; at any rate there really is no scholarly claim as to the possible current belief in the deification of Zeus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because a religion isn't practiced anywhere says nothing to its validity. Since Christianity steals much of its mythology from earlier religions, its more likely that, if there is a God(s), then they're correct and Christianity has bastardized the truth.

Keep in mind that a good portion of the world thinks that the Christian God is just a myth. There is just as much evidence that Zeus is real as your idea of who God is.

Perhaps you simply need to invite Zeus into your heart?

But we're really quibbling over details. There are hundreds of Gods worshipped past and present. All of whom their followers beleived performed miracles, had relationships with them, etc. How many of them did you try out before you settled on the mythology you went with?

[kurto]

Hmmmm.... not a single theist asked another God into their hearts? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmmm.... not a single theist asked another God into their hearts? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't tease the theists. Let them feed themselves instead. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[mbb]

Brashbrother: You say that Zeus isn't your God largely because he isn't popular.

If popularity is the criterion for your choice, shouldn't you be worshipping the Muslim god?

Because that's by far a more popular religion than Christianity.

[FortunaMaximus]

Incorrect. Check your sources, use multiple sources. Christianity has a slight edge still.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Incorrect. Check your sources, use multiple sources. Christianity has a slight edge still.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess it depends on how you define christianity. That religion is very divided, with a plethora of sects that think they have the exclusive mandate. No single sect is as large as the muslim religion in terms of adherents. The size of christianity often quoted as a support of veracity is another one of those statements made by christians which has no basis in fact.

Islam is less divided, although it has some sects too. However many of these, like Shiite and Sunnis, for instance, do indeed recognize each other and allow intermarriage without conversion requirements.

[FortunaMaximus]

Yeah, and most Christianity counts now include China, which I find rather odd and probably disputable. Keeping a census of 6 billion people is always going to be guesstimating.

Islam has had less time to fragment, probably.

But what can be taken as fact is that those two religions carry slightly under or slightly over half of the world's population. With that uneasy balance, I don't think the pace of rationality will really increase a great deal.

[govman6767]

It was said that muhammed walked into the desert and talked to a creature.

Upon returning from his journey he told his wife he had seen the devil.

She told him it was not the devil it must have been god.

I guess muhammuedded believed her.

Now mahamud's religion is being used to terrorize the world.

Whos to blame..... A WOMAN yeah their prophet was REALLL smart. If she kept her mouth shut we would not be in iraq today.

As for ZEUS being childish.

I think a so called GOD was being childish when he decimated the earth in the big flood.

I don't know this whole meruhammad thing really bothers me is it possible that a woman is responsible for muuhammjuds greatness in the today world.

[Fabian]

govman,

I can't remember the last time I read a post on 2+2 and was NOT nth leveled by some genius like yourself. Good job making me feel like an idiot /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[govman6767]

[ QUOTE ]
govman,

I can't remember the last time I read a post on 2+2 and was NOT nth leveled by some genius like yourself. Good job making me feel like an idiot /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey just doing my part /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Someone has to bring these guys back to reality

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
govman,

I can't remember the last time I read a post on 2+2 and was NOT nth leveled by some genius like yourself. Good job making me feel like an idiot /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey just doing my part /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Someone has to bring these guys back to reality

[/ QUOTE ]

What reality is that? Using blatant misogyny to discredit the origins of Islam?

Judging from your avatar, I think you nth'd yourself there, dude. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
nth leveled

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't even tell any more. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
nth leveled

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't even tell any more. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. Think of it as nth layering instead and when you return to a thread, you find a couple more layers. Even a few you accidentally contributed yourself. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif