GD Donk Bet!

[VorShot]

6Max 10NL rings...
Late pos, i raise a LOT of different hands. What i don't know is how to defend againts the donk raiser.

EXAMPLE (not a real hand)
UTG folds,
MP limps,
CO folds,
Button (HERO) raises it to 5 times the BB with 75s,
SB and BB fold,
MP calls

Flop; A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif

MP bets pot?!
Ok...so i've got a bluff no matter what, one that i was happy to continuation bet. Should i Float? Raise? Fold?

What i normally do is see if they do it often, and if so, i started floating, but if they fire again on the turn, am i forced to give up the hand?

Normally they somehow always manage to donk bet me on the hands where i've got nothing. It's rare enough that it might be when they have a real hand...but i never can tell because they never get to showdown.

What would you do on that hand? Keep folding to the donk bet till you have a better idea of what kinda hands they play?

Here's a real hand.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
4 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $2
Hero: $10.65
SB: $10.90
BB: $4.40

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG (poster) checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $0.5</font>, SB calls, 2 folds.

Flop: 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif ($1.2, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $1.2</font>, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $1.2 returned to SB.

Results:
Final pot: $1.2

The answer is normally, "Well what are your reads"
Againts a tight player, it's pretty easy to see this is a fold, but what about the players where their range is a little more wide (such as almost everyone playing 10NL).

I can bring the stats from PT, but i have no idea which ones you would want (Still semi new to PT and PokerAceHUD)

And PT only shows three hands shown down for this person, even though we played about 77 hands at that table.

As far as my personal reads about this hand anyways, this hand is from 10/09/06...so i don't remember at all.

[tiredjerk]

If the flop didn't come all suited, what would you do? You don't have a strong hand anymore. You have to realize that and not get too attached to your hand. You seem to be taking people's bets into you a little personally. Think about what villain could have. You have .50 invested, doesn't seem like its worth it to put in another 1.20 or more when you might have 4 live outs, if lucky.
As for the whole concept of people donk betting into you, use that to your advantage. They aren't respecting your raises, and that might be due to the fact that you're raising a LOT of hands. Use the image to make money instead of getting frustrated and raising a pot sized bet with now draw or overcards or anything.

[tehDiceman]

patience young grasshoppa. if they continue to reraise you everytime, you have to hit sooner or later, then BAM! they go busto.

[PietM]

First hand: I'd fold. I don't mind your raise pre-flop, but after you raise, get called and see an Ace on the flop, you can be pretty sure you're beat.

Hand 2: I wouldn't really mind a raise here. It's possible villain is on a flushdraw (could have the A/images/graemlins/club.gif) here. I would potraise here (to ~$4) and see what he does. If he's been pretty passive you can fold too. But I think a 'standard' donk would play a flopped flush much slower and try to lure you in.
If you raise and get called, and get bet into again on the turn, you can fold.

[Sir Winalot]

Folding is goot, punish him when you actually hit something. Fold in both of your examples.

[VorShot]

I never said i had a strong hand. I would be just as happy with 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

The problem is, i want to continuation bet, and i feel like if someone donk bets, they take that tool away from me.

If you raise preflop and someone donk bets, YOU are forced to make a hand. I am asking if there is a way to put the pressure BACK on the other player...i'm not asking how to play the suited hand. I'm asking about donk betting advice.

[VorShot]

[ QUOTE ]
Folding is goot, punish him when you actually hit something. Fold in both of your examples.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if someone is taking the continuation bet away, let it set up the image that i raised with nothing and punish them when i hit?

Not a bad idea.

Thanks.

[VorShot]

Thanks everyone.

[Gravy]

There are better whiffed flops to float than these two.

Fold 'em both.

[VorShot]

When would you advocate floating?

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
When would you advocate floating?

[/ QUOTE ]
Against a player who c-bets much, preferably on a flop with only low cards, as it's quite likely he has only whiffed overs.

[VorShot]

Thanks

[DannieUke]

Ok -- castigate me with links to the "Search" feature all you'd like -- I can't find an actual definition for these terms...

What is floating?

And what is a "Donk Bet"? Just a bet that makes no sense to you after the flop? Or a pot-sized bet that doesn't add up? If you don't know what they had, how are you sure they're a donkey?

[akkahai]

[ QUOTE ]


What is floating?



[/ QUOTE ]

Check the stickies. uNL concepts week 1 is about floating. SSNL stickies probably have lots of stuff on this as well.

[ QUOTE ]


And what is a "Donk Bet"? Just a bet that makes no sense to you after the flop? Or a pot-sized bet that doesn't add up? If you don't know what they had, how are you sure they're a donkey?

[/ QUOTE ]

As I have understood it, it means when somebody leads (ie. bets out of position) when they have not been the aggressor on the previous street. For example if you raise preflop, somebody calls and then bets on the flop before you get to act.

I like it when they donk if I don't have anything, saves me a c-bet.

I don't know which word came first, donkey or donk. Maybe donkey is derived from the donk bet? Or the other way around. Maybe they aren't even related terms. How is it?

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


What is floating?



[/ QUOTE ]

Check the stickies. uNL concepts week 1 is about floating. SSNL stickies probably have lots of stuff on this as well.

[ QUOTE ]


And what is a "Donk Bet"? Just a bet that makes no sense to you after the flop? Or a pot-sized bet that doesn't add up? If you don't know what they had, how are you sure they're a donkey?

[/ QUOTE ]

As I have understood it, it means when somebody leads (ie. bets out of position) when they have not been the aggressor on the previous street. For example if you raise preflop, somebody calls and then bets on the flop before you get to act.

I like it when they donk if I don't have anything, saves me a c-bet.

I don't know which word came first, donkey or donk. Maybe donkey is derived from the donk bet? Or the other way around. Maybe they aren't even related terms. How is it?

[/ QUOTE ]
Floating is to call a bet with the plan to take the pot away from villain with a bluff on a later street.

What akkahai said, and usually a donk bet is a very small bet too, like 1BB or similar.

Of course donkey was first. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[carnivalhobo]

typically you should raise these donkbets with anything, but the potsized ones give me more pause.

[VorShot]

People Donk bet for all sorts of reasons.

Some do it with their draws, some do it because they have a mid pair and want to see if i missed with my over cards, some do it because they hit a hand like 2 pair and want to start building a pot (Good players do the last one, bad players normally only the other two.)

[Triggerle]

I used to get really worked up if someone always raised my c-bets or took away my opportunity to c-bet by donking. I alwyas suspected that he is just bluffing me off the hand and that I somehow had to make a stand against his bluff. With this negative perspective I have lost many big pots by playing back with mediocre holdings. I have also at times been timid at raising or c-betting because of the fear of someone playing back at me.

Then I realised that it doesn't matter if I give him my preflop raise and my c-bet. Sooner or later there will be a hand where I get it all back in one piece (and then some).

Now I get really excited when someone repeatedly does this. I feel like I am setting up a trap by giving him small pot after small pot. More often than not he will run right into my trap within the session. Plus the positive perspective I now maintain on the situation actually helps my confidence.

I guess as I move up it won't be that simple anymore but right now at NL10 the reckless players have almost always paid up sooner or later.

[bozzer]

So is this 'donk' betting always a bad idea? I know it always annoys me when someone calls my raise, leads out, and I have to fold. So I try to do it myself, particularly when...

[ QUOTE ]

Some do it with their draws, some do it because they have a mid pair and want to see if i missed with my over cards, some do it because they hit a hand like 2 pair and want to start building a pot (Good players do the last one, bad players normally only the other two.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to do all three! So often if you're in the blind and you call a raise the raiser has to fold when you hit your middle pair - what's wrong with doing this? I am officially worried.

[fsista]

Ehrm. You shouldn't try winning every pot. If you do, you lose. I think trying to take these pots away will make you a losing player.

[bozzer]

From the PFR's POV now.

If it's a min bet, I tend to just ignore it and continuation-raise whenever I would have continuation-bet. If it's a decent sized bet you need to start being clever.

If you're facing a decent sized raise it does come down to reads. If you raise with something like KT and the flop comes A95 two-suited I would be inclined to raise more often than not.