nl50 FR: AK preflop [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

ChipStorm

11-08-2006, 04:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
ty men i saw this thing in a poker blog, that going all in against a reraise was a good thing with AK. i though the guy who wrote that simply sucks a little or he likes to play shortstaked or in very higher limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

chaide, read NLHETAP. They do quite a treatment of AK as an all-in hand, and their very reasonable conclusion is that it's pretty good for pushing. The only hand you really fear is AA, you have outs vs. KK, and you're flipping or beating anything else. Throw in fold equity, and it's a strong play.

But obviously, the size of your push vs. what you stand to win comes into it, and you can't just go around pushing it in with AK indiscriminately.

I keep staring at your post, and with that pot & those stacks, I still don't know what I'd do. I think it's close.

chaide

11-08-2006, 04:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ty men i saw this thing in a poker blog, that going all in against a reraise was a good thing with AK. i though the guy who wrote that simply sucks a little or he likes to play shortstaked or in very higher limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

chaide, read NLHETAP. They do quite a treatment of AK as an all-in hand, and their very reasonable conclusion is that it's pretty good for pushing. The only hand you really fear is AA, you have outs vs. KK, and you're flipping or beating anything else. Throw in fold equity, and it's a strong play.

But obviously, the size of your push vs. what you stand to win comes into it, and you can't just go around pushing it in with AK indiscriminately.

I keep staring at your post, and with that pot & those stacks, I still don't know what I'd do. I think it's close.

[/ QUOTE ]

whats nl hetap? i got several books in my pc and maybe i got it yet

Panthro

11-08-2006, 04:43 PM

No Limit Hold'em Theory and Practice (Sklansky/Ed Miller)

kitaristi0

11-08-2006, 04:45 PM

Fold.

Waingro

11-08-2006, 05:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Without a read I like this line.

br.bm

11-08-2006, 05:19 PM

calling isn't that good either
If we flop an Ace we dont get any action from KK, QQ etc..
If we dont we have to fold to a bet.

So the question is, if villian would reraise with AQ and AJ

and I don't like that whole coinflip thing in cashgames

wingchunflush

11-08-2006, 05:22 PM

I am not sure what I would do. I am new to being a thinking player. I know the wrong thing to do is to call, but I can see myself doing that here and making a decision on the flop. (old habits die hard). I like the re-raise here since I can think for a moment and I am not in the hand.

4_2_it

11-08-2006, 05:28 PM

I think the EV of pushing and folding is probably close even that, without a read, it doesn't matter which one you choose (of course one is much higher variance than the other).

I do not like calling because you are going to miss the flop over 60% of the time.

whodatdare

11-08-2006, 05:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
LOLs don't but half a stack in then fold ie don't raise to 27 and fold to a push. Folding is a pretty good option here. Aren't people pretty passive tpically at 25NL?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure Sir meant 27 BB, not half of your stack?

Dave I

11-08-2006, 06:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the EV of pushing and folding is probably close even that, without a read, it doesn't matter which one you choose (of course one is much higher variance than the other).

[/ QUOTE ]

EV wise your probably right against a totally "unknown" or a tight player. And I suspect you are even more right at say 100NL.

[ QUOTE ]
I do not like calling because you are going to miss the flop over 60% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

So will they.

This really is completely read dependent. I can't even count the number of times I've been 3-bet by a much worse hand here (read: AQ/AJ or worse). Or it's a small pocket that cant stand any heat at all if a broadway flops. I think if you are limiting this to fold or push you are giving up tons of value. If you fold you will often be folding the best hand and when you push you usually only get called by AA/KK. IMO - pushing is only best when you feel he will also call with less than AA/KK.

EDIT: Meh - didn't notice full ring so I have no idea what common there. I've never played it online.

4_2_it

11-08-2006, 06:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I do not like calling because you are going to miss the flop over 60% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

So will they.

This really is completely read dependent. I can't even count the number of times I've been 3-bet by a much worse hand here (read: AQ/AJ or worse). Or it's a small pocket that cant stand any heat at all if a broadway flops. I think if you are limiting this to fold or push you are giving up tons of value. If you fold you will often be folding the best hand and when you push you usually only get called by AA/KK. IMO - pushing is only best when you feel he will also call with less than AA/KK.

EDIT: Meh - didn't notice full ring so I have no idea what common there. I've never played it online.

[/ QUOTE ]

What hand besides AK are you repping by calling a 3-bet OOP? You aren't getting odds to spike a set with something like 77. You should be repopping TT+, so that makes AK a huge part of your range. Even on a K-high flop hero can't be sure his hand is best, so playing a big pot OOP on a K84 flop isn't the greatest spot to be put in either.

D.L.M.

11-08-2006, 06:53 PM

id think goin all in is ok. since we have ak that discounts him for having aa. and kk. and somtimes he wont call and was raising light.

so i guess if villian is position aware and would ussually slow play aa or kk id push

if villian is a nit fold

if villian is tricky that means they are positoins aware and i push. id say its better to push.

If hes a tag that would only reraise with aq+ tt+ i think id go all in to fold their aq and ak and somtimes jj or tt which is what a good tag would raise with. get acoin flip with tt-QQ and have a somewhat worse situation with kk(which hes more likey to reraise with than aa if hes a tag) and be fuct ocasionaly with aa.
so tag id say neutral but + ev for table image

Passive nit who will certainly call and most like have that [censored] fold

and anything else i think its slight + becuase some donkeys have lower pps in there reraise range that they fold to all in and some donkeys will call with aq suited because" its such a good hand"

Wu36

11-08-2006, 07:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

ronitonline

11-08-2006, 07:37 PM

I dont believe everyone saying fold.
You all try to act like you are way more legit then you really are.

kitaristi0

11-08-2006, 07:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I dont believe everyone saying fold.
You all try to act like you are way more legit then you really are.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the basis for your speculation/accusation?

ronitonline

11-08-2006, 07:43 PM

People who play NL50 are generally retards, they think A10suited is a [censored] monster.
I see the most absurd calls and reraises preflop at NL50.
Everyone just trys to act like they make HUGE laydowns when I doubt that 1percent of the people on this forum are going to fold to a single reraise from the button at NL50 holding AK, especially when you look at him as a "donk" like this player says.

That is just absurd.
Sorry but I am tired of reading people talk about how they would fold QQ and AK all the time to a single raise.
People play unbelieveably unlegit at NL50 and its just retarted to assume you are playing angainst someone who only reraises with KK and AA.

Wu36

11-08-2006, 07:47 PM

So, are you saying we lie about folding or we fold incorrectly?

and who says we fold qq here?

kitaristi0

11-08-2006, 07:59 PM

ronit,

I think there is a clear distinction to be made between an average NL50 donk and a winning NL50 playing 2p2er.

ronitonline

11-08-2006, 08:33 PM

I am not saying there are no good NL50 players, I am sure there are hundreds better than I am.
But this is vs an unknown idiot,
I see thousands of NL50 players raise preflop with 88-JJ AQ AJ even KQ sometimes.
its just absolutely ABSURD to throw this away preflop to a smallish raise and not see the flop.
I dont mind not raising here, or being cautious of a big hand, but you could very very very easily have the best hand.

And yes wu36 i dont think anyone here actually would fold in this spot. sorry i just dont believe you.

Wu36

11-08-2006, 10:35 PM

I think calling is easily our worst option here. If you want to reraise occasionally that's fine. But we're utg (this isn't even 6max) I can't see the merit in calling and playing the hand oop.

ronitonline

11-09-2006, 12:29 AM

I am not even arguing that Calling is a bad or good play, im just saying that folding is even worse.

Wu36

11-09-2006, 12:55 AM

I don't have too many hands at nl50 but I can't bring myself to believe calling is better than folding. If we're up against the aformentioned maniac (88+ AJ+ KQ) we're 55% against his range but calling puts us in a pretty akward situation. We're gonna miss most flops (and have to fold the best hand when he has AJ or KQ on a raggy board). And we won't be able to get too much value when we're ahead (exception being when you flop TPTK to his TPGK) and we pretty much always get stacked when he has our TPTK beat.

ronitonline

11-09-2006, 01:24 AM

I can see that, but i think the average player has way too big of a reraising range to fold, if you really hate calling then raise.
Thats all im saying, people act like they respect everyone elses play soooo much.
In that last 2 weeks I have read about like 5 PF QQ and AK hands and everyone is always like "fold fold" it just seems like people are trying to show how SKILLFUL they are because they make those laydowns, i think its BS and in theory it could be a good laydown but in real life when it actually happens i highly doubt anyone makes a fold here more then 5% of the time. Especially vs a random noob at NL50.

Wu36

11-09-2006, 01:31 AM

I agree you should 4bet if you're too far ahead of his range to fold. I just have beef with calling oop because you have an edge against his pf range (I guess its good if hes insanely passive/predictable postflop, but thats probably not the case if hes 3balling KQ). If we're arguing about people sayign they fold to look cool, I really dont care and will gladly concede the point.

btw, nfw I fold QQ here.

orange

11-09-2006, 01:39 AM

This is a 4-bet (shoving is fine) or fold. Calling is really yuck.

Dave I

11-09-2006, 01:52 AM

I'm with ronitonline 100% here. Folding is terrible against the vast majority of players. See a flop a play some [censored] poker. Learn to play OOP.

Just calling is fine against a lot players who will overplay their weaker A or K. Raise if you must.

Just 5 minutes ago I was 3-bet by QTo by an otherwise seemingly normal player. We both flopped 2 pair and he rivered a 4 card flush. I guess I shoulda folded.

Dave I

11-09-2006, 02:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a 4-bet (shoving is fine) or fold. Calling is really yuck.

[/ QUOTE ]

What worse hand is calling a push? Yet, worse A's and K's will very often pay off if we simply call. I just don't see how you guys are completely discounting just calling.

Of course, this is fold or a push against certain players.

PotatoStew

11-09-2006, 02:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I see thousands of NL50 players raise preflop with 88-JJ AQ AJ even KQ sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait - did you mean "re-raise" preflop, or is it really not a good idea to raise those listed hands at all in NL?

Dave I

11-09-2006, 02:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]

What hand besides AK are you repping by calling a 3-bet OOP? You aren't getting odds to spike a set with something like 77. You should be repopping TT+, so that makes AK a huge part of your range. Even on a K-high flop hero can't be sure his hand is best, so playing a big pot OOP on a K84 flop isn't the greatest spot to be put in either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I almost never 4-bet. Pretty much only AA/KK sometimes QQ, against normal players. So, I can have pretty much any hand here. Maybe some notice but I probably already stear clear of them. The rest have no clue. Your 4-betting TT but want to fold AK here? Really? Also, I assume you mean all-in with a 100bb stack when you say repop?

Marshall28

11-09-2006, 02:12 AM

calling is horrid. raising is OK but even if he does call we are going to be OOP and probably miss the flop, even if we do hit it we arent sure if we are good or not.

i think ronit overestimates his own skill ... regardless as to what you think villains range is ... 95% of 50nl players are not good enough to play AK oop to a 3bet.

id have to have a read that this player is really loose to raise, otherwise its an easy fold.

Dave I

11-09-2006, 02:15 AM

One other thing, at this level our edge postflop should be so much greater than your average players that we should be trying to see lots of flops with these hands and forcing mistakes, not blowing them out preflop or not allowing them to make postflop mistakes.

Dave I

11-09-2006, 02:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
calling is horrid. raising is OK but even if he does call we are going to be OOP and probably miss the flop, even if we do hit it we arent sure if we are good or not.

i think ronit overestimates his own skill ... regardless as to what you think villains range is ... 95% of 50nl players are not good enough to play AK oop to a 3bet.

id have to have a read that this player is really loose to raise, otherwise its an easy fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can't play AK OOP, WTF can you play. Just fold preflop right off the bat.

Marshall28

11-09-2006, 02:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
One other thing, at this level our edge postflop should be so much greater than your average players that we should be trying to see lots of flops with these hands and forcing mistakes, not blowing them out preflop or not allowing them to make postflop mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

you want to force villain to make a mistake here?

ok say you call .. .flop comes 3510 ... whats your play? raise? ok if he calls and u miss on turn, now what? ... how are you forcing a mistake?

the only flop you like to see has an ace or king in it ... and even then you are probably going to lose a big pot to AA or KK, or win a small one from 88-qq ... the only time you can really force a mistake here is when he holds something like AQ and an ace flops ... thers just not enough situations where its easy to force a mistake and grab a big advantage with it.

Dave I

11-09-2006, 02:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
you want to force villain to make a mistake here?

ok say you call .. .flop comes 3510 ... whats your play? raise? ok if he calls and u miss on turn, now what? ... how are you forcing a mistake?

the only flop you like to see has an ace or king in it ... and even then you are probably going to lose a big pot to AA or KK, or win a small one from 88-qq ... the only time you can really force a mistake here is when he holds something like AQ and an ace flops ... thers just not enough situations where its easy to force a mistake and grab a big advantage with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

We've invested 9bb in this example if we call. We can still fold if need be. We're winning a lot of small pots and a bunch of big ones when our opponent plays a weaker A or K (which I think is more often then you do) or cant get rid of his underpair (plenty of those too) than we are losing to AA/KK when we also hit.

As for your flop, I may bet/fold, C/R, c/f, or bet/3-bet. Hell, I may call down. I've won plenty of nice pots with AK high. All depends on my opponent.

You guys are thinking like a good logical player thinks. Against them maybe this is a fold or push. Fortunately, at this level most are not good, logical, or thinking. It's ZOMG I have TP/PP/FLUSH DRAW.

Of course, I have been wrong plenty in these spots too but PT says I am winning 1.07 BB/hand playing AKo OOP. This is over a 200k sample.

Here's one I happened to find (really, first one I found where I was 3-bet). Though it was a blind that 3-bet me so I'm IP on the flop. Edit: And I know he's short but he folds if I push.

Absolute Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
Dave: $72.25
CO: $101.40
Button: $11.90
SB: $25.25
BB: $29.25

Pre-flop: (5 players) Dave is UTG with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Dave raises to $2.5, 2 folds, SB raises to $5, BB folds, Dave calls.

Flop: 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif ($10.5, 2 players)
SB is all-in $20.25, Dave calls.

Turn: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($51, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $51)

River: 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($51, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $51)

Results:
Final pot: $51
SB Shows Jd Qc
Dave Shows Ks Ad

Marshall28

11-09-2006, 03:01 AM

if you have played this hand consistently like this over 200k hands and are 1bb/100 ... you must be running incredibly well ... because i promise ... no one makes money playing ak the way you described ...

nor in general do they make money from jq when no one flops a pair.

Dave I

11-09-2006, 03:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
if you have played this hand consistently like this over 200k hands and are 1bb/100 ... you must be running incredibly well ... because i promise ... no one makes money playing ak the way you described ...

nor in general do they make money from jq when no one flops a pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Marshall, maybe your right. All I'm saying is it's not as clear cut as push or fold and calling has merits against certain opp. There is no way anyone will ever convince me that those are our only two choices here. Maybe if your 12 tabling...

Marshall28

11-09-2006, 03:09 AM

well ... of course any play is going to have some merit vs very specific players. poker is not absolute. all i was saying is that in general its a bad idea.

and i dont think this is one of those situations where calling has merits.

Wu36

11-09-2006, 03:10 AM

I really don't feel like writing another long post on this subject, and marshall/orange/4_2 have made good points on the subject.

That said, the hand you posted isn't all that similar to the op. If we were oop in your hand I 4bet everytime.

edited to sound less like a dick

Big Poppa Smurf

11-09-2006, 03:28 AM

here's another ak question: someone opens utg, you pot 3bet, and they pot 4bet - is this a clear fold?

edit: obv you can't call here for value, and i'd say the average range here is something like kk/aa, maybe qq from most villains, so it looks like a fold. but i would usually just call in op's example and rarely fold or shove so what do i know right?

Jay2u

11-09-2006, 03:31 AM

Push or fold, depending on your bankroll. Can you stand some variance, then push.

J

Marshall28

11-09-2006, 03:31 AM

unless they are super loose its obvious fold.

AK has no value all in w/out fold equity. because best case scenario you will be tied against another AK, or be in a coinflip situation. worst case scenario is much more likely when he 4bets.

Big Poppa Smurf

11-09-2006, 03:32 AM

yeah that's what i thought, but like i said the answer to OP's question surprised me so i just wanted to double check

Dave I

11-09-2006, 03:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't feel like writing another long post on this subject, and marshall/orange/4_2 have made good points on the subject.

That said, the hand you posted isn't all that similar to the op. If we were oop in your hand I 4bet everytime.

edited to sound less like a dick

[/ QUOTE ]

I realize its different. It's the first I found where I was 3-bet and was using it to illustrate my point about how ridiculous 3-bets can be. I am sure if I tried I could find more than a few similar to OP with full stacks.

Again, all I'm saying is it's not always as cookie cutter as push or fold. We don't have a single read in the OP, not even stats.

But, I am of the opinion that at this level it's even less so a push or fold against most opp. I know most/all won't agree.

Dave I

11-09-2006, 03:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
here's another ak question: someone opens utg, you pot 3bet, and they pot 4bet - is this a clear fold?

edit: obv you can't call here for value, and i'd say the average range here is something like kk/aa, maybe qq from most villains, so it looks like a fold. but i would usually just call in op's example and rarely fold or shove so what do i know right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Edit: never mind, this was wrong. I miscalculated.

ronitonline

11-09-2006, 03:41 AM

Done arguing.

Edit.

Marshall28

11-09-2006, 03:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I did mean "reraise" in my other post but it woudlnt let me edit once i saw it.
Once again if people are going to fold AK even half the time preflop purely cause they are OOP I think that is stupid. When I say to make that call that is not because of my skill-level rating for whoever said that.
It's because at NL50 I absolutely do not respect a reraise from the button, and I will take those chances knowing that half the time if not more they will check the flop after me if I miss. I will also take a stab at it on the flop sometimes regardless of what comes.
Vs a random NL50 player raising from the button, It just seems like he doesnt believe that your raise.
I have seen any decent PP reraise at NL50, it is just stupid to fold in my opinion. Your reraise / call argument I dont even care about, I am just saying that in the actual circumstance I dont believe all these kids saying they fold because they cant play AK OOP, maybe you sohuld fold KK OOP cause you dont want to fold if an A hits the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry .. .i dont generally antagonize but ...

LOL?

ronitonline

11-09-2006, 03:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I did mean "reraise" in my other post but it woudlnt let me edit once i saw it.
Once again if people are going to fold AK even half the time preflop purely cause they are OOP I think that is stupid. When I say to make that call that is not because of my skill-level rating for whoever said that.
It's because at NL50 I absolutely do not respect a reraise from the button, and I will take those chances knowing that half the time if not more they will check the flop after me if I miss. I will also take a stab at it on the flop sometimes regardless of what comes.
Vs a random NL50 player raising from the button, It just seems like he doesnt believe that your raise.
I have seen any decent PP reraise at NL50, it is just stupid to fold in my opinion. Your reraise / call argument I dont even care about, I am just saying that in the actual circumstance I dont believe all these kids saying they fold because they cant play AK OOP, maybe you sohuld fold KK OOP cause you dont want to fold if an A hits the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry .. .i dont generally antagonize but ...

LOL?

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldnt be turning this into me and you, but thanks.

Marshall28

11-09-2006, 03:54 AM

youre right. im sorry.

orange

11-09-2006, 04:29 AM

Dave,

calling here is pretty lame.

We miss 60% of the time. OOP, you are almost always c/f-ing to a villan's bet. Your 'postflop edge' is null due to two factors: OOP and a RR-ed pot. You have 0 control over the action, you are OOP and are generally going to c/f any non A/K flop. Furthermore, with it being a RR-ed pot, you won't have much room to meanuever. And even when you hit your A/K, you won't necessarily gain much if you hit. (most sensible villans will either get away from KK on an A high board or JJ/QQ on a A/K high board).

Also, the hand you posted is a very very very easy shove PF. Your action is pretty ick IMO. And it doesn't really relate to the OP's post.

Dave I

11-09-2006, 04:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Dave,

calling here is pretty lame.

We miss 60% of the time. OOP, you are almost always c/f-ing to a villan's bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, thats the thing. I am almost never c/f-ing. If that's my plan then sure I might as well fold or push PF.

What I don't get is what worse hand is calling a raise/push. We are folding out all the weaker hands we want to play with and only gettting called by the ones that crush us or at best flipping with.

What am I missing here?

Edit: Is the theory that we can't overcome our position disadvatage postflop in the RR pot so our only options become fold or shove?

Dave I

11-09-2006, 04:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Also, the hand you posted is a very very very easy shove PF. Your action is pretty ick IMO. And it doesn't really relate to the OP's post.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had a read /images/graemlins/wink.gif

ronitonline

11-09-2006, 05:23 AM

Anyways homies, I think the bottom line is, show me your QQ and AK preflop folds to a single reraise and I will believe your Uber skillzzzz that you possess.
I only see people SAYING fold not actually FOLDING.

ronitonline

11-09-2006, 05:24 AM

Don't worry dave, I folded AA in the SB last week cause I was OOP.

kitaristi0

11-09-2006, 06:47 AM

ronit,

Since you wanted to see one:

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
8 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $24.50
Hero: $25
MP1: $6.95
MP2: $57.65
CO: $27.25
Button: $5.30
SB: $25.10
BB: $5.75

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG folds, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, CO raises to $4, 3 folds, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $3 returned to CO.

Results:
Final pot: $2.35

Also I don't know why you are lumping QQ in with AK. They aren't even close to being the same hand in this spot. I'm never folding QQ here unless a supernit reraises me and I don't have set odds. AK I will however fold almost always unless villain is very LAG in which case I'm 4-betting or shoving.

Wu36

11-09-2006, 01:32 PM

only one i have at <NL100 on this comp.
http://www.pokerhand.org/?602763

ronitonline

11-09-2006, 02:41 PM

Looks like you guys win.

xGREGORx

11-09-2006, 02:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
hero is utg 8 handed

dealt to hero AKo with 100bb

hero raises 3 bb
everyody folds except the button who raises 6 BB to 9 BB.
Villain also have 100BB
both blinds fold

Hero ?

I suposse only two posibilities are good here:

1-call
2-allin

What stacks are you going allin with?
What about AK suited?

ty

[/ QUOTE ]

*grunch*
what is your read on button? If he is a tight and unimaginative player, folding might be your best option.

ronitonline

11-09-2006, 02:51 PM

I guess I just havent played enough but I noticed MOST non-expierenced players do not c-bet everytime. ANYTIME a scare card or scary textured board comes they dont bet, and that allows me to take the hand when i do have the best hand, when i dont, and if i flop A or K that also allows me to feel pretty comfortable about my hand.
I could just have ran into some super noobs, but sorry for this whole argument anyways, it got way out of hand.

4_2_it

11-09-2006, 02:53 PM

Pushing is +EV if villain's range is 77+ and AQ+ Who cares if we are behind? Throw in a small amount of FE and potential random crap like KQ or QJ and pushing is ++EV.

Pushing is high variance so your EV might only be $1-$3 or something small so folding is a very small mistake. The EV of calling will be less than pushing because there will be pots we win that villain doesnt call a flop with that he would have shoved pre-flop (For instance, villain has JJ and the flop is AQ5.

Maybe matrix or one of you other math wizards can do the EV calculates that I mapped out to double check me. I am at work so no Pokerstove for me /images/graemlins/frown.gif

orange

11-09-2006, 03:08 PM

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Dave,

calling here is pretty lame.

We miss 60% of the time. OOP, you are almost always c/f-ing to a villan's bet.

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See, thats the thing. I am almost never c/f-ing. If that's my plan then sure I might as well fold or push PF.

What I don't get is what worse hand is calling a raise/push. We are folding out all the weaker hands we want to play with and only gettting called by the ones that crush us or at best flipping with.

What am I missing here?

Edit: Is the theory that we can't overcome our position disadvatage postflop in the RR pot so our only options become fold or shove?

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c/c-ing AK UI on the flop in a RR-ed pot is lol. Why are you calling? for value? your AK MAY beat his betting range at the moment, but if he shoves the turn are you calling? leading UI is fine I guess, but I think its pretty spewy without a decent read. c/r-ing AI on the flop is okay I guess, but again, you need a great read that he is 3-betting you alot PF and you need to know that you have decent FE when you pull this move.

Regards to shoving PF: I'm not sure if many worse hands are calling. If you mean hands like JJ/QQ where we are flipping with, then I'm fine with that. Add in some fold equity, times he has AQ, etc./seeing all 5 cards, and I think shoving is perfectally fine.

also, yeah, you may have had a read on your AK hand (calling UI). but pushing pf is so superior...you see all 5 cards...if your calling that sortve flop UI then you get all the same benefits as shoving pf except now you might have some FE.

orange

11-09-2006, 03:09 PM

Now, had we been in position, calling becomes more of an option.

Dave I

11-09-2006, 03:38 PM

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c/c-ing AK UI on the flop in a RR-ed pot is lol. Why are you calling? for value? your AK MAY beat his betting range at the moment, but if he shoves the turn are you calling? leading UI is fine I guess, but I think its pretty spewy without a decent read. c/r-ing AI on the flop is okay I guess, but again, you need a great read that he is 3-betting you alot PF and you need to know that you have decent FE when you pull this move.

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I'm not c/c except with the best of read. Agreed that sucks. I'm b/3bet, C/R, and b/f -ing most of the time.

Orange, I am talking against your average bad player here not the TAG or aggressive or even good. Then I'm with you, fold or shove. But, there are too many at this level who just can't play postflop. They either shut down or bet 3BB into the 15BB pot. Or they push 75BB into the 15BB pot on an A high flop with KK/QQ/AQ/Etc..

Those are the ones I want to see a flop with here. Sure they have me beat sometimes but not as often as if I push preflop. They will fold < QQ preflop yet go too far postflop with said hands above.

Am I really way off with this thinking?

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also, yeah, you may have had a read on your AK hand (calling UI). but pushing pf is so superior...you see all 5 cards...if your calling that sortve flop UI then you get all the same benefits as shoving pf except now you might have some FE.

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It was a joke, though I'm sure I had some read to call that. Your right though, here I should have just pushed preflop and seen all the cards. This guy probably calls with his QJ anyway. I posted it just to make my point about 3-bets not always meaning much.