Bet/3-betting with a draw (50 6m) [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

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HitNRunPoster

11-08-2006, 08:15 AM

I've done this a couple of times, with negative results both times (lol literally vs AA both times). I'm curious about what you guys think of my bet sizing, and generally what you think of this line. Assume vanilla tags for villains.

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1) Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($96.70)
UTG ($49.85)
MP ($50)
CO ($68.40)
Button ($67.85)
SB ($20)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, MP raises to $1.75, 3 folds, Hero calls $1.25, UTG folds.

Flop: ($4.25) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $3, MP raises to $6, Hero raises to $16, MP calls $42.25 (All-In), Hero calls $32.25.

Final Pot: $100.75

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2) Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($45.30)
SB ($7.25)
Hero ($95.70)
UTG ($40.85)
MP ($24.50)
CO ($22.30)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
2 folds, CO raises to $1, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.50.

Flop: ($2.25) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $2, CO raises to $5, Hero raises to $11, CO calls $16.30 (All-In), Hero calls $10.30.

Final Pot: $44.85

Sir Winalot

11-08-2006, 09:08 AM

IMO betting all-in with a big draw is cool, but calling all-in with a pair+gutshot is teh suckzors.

redCashion

11-08-2006, 09:12 AM

Neither draw here is big enough for you to be reraising someone.

HitNRunPoster

11-09-2006, 05:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
IMO betting all-in with a big draw is cool, but calling all-in with a pair+gutshot is teh suckzors.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Yeah, it's slightly better than BE vs AA before you take into account the rake, might be slightly +ev with the rake in there, but it's a lot of variance and if you include some sets in his range or perhaps better draws then I could be in a world of hurt.

results: I river goot twice. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

HitNRunPoster

11-09-2006, 05:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Neither draw here is big enough for you to be reraising someone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, how should i play these types of hands then?

I don't know... /images/graemlins/frown.gif

jgunnip

11-09-2006, 07:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Neither draw here is big enough for you to be reraising someone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, how should i play these types of hands then?

I don't know... /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd fold both of these preflop without a read on the villans, especially if they are at all competent post flop.
but since you saw the flop, i think c/c is an ok line on both flop. with T8 i might lead the turn, but i'm not really all that excited about either one of the draws.

another thing is I almost never lead into a pfr at this level unless there's a very good chance i'll get raised. you have literally zero FE on the flop and will only win the pot if you catch a weak draw or commit more chips on a second barrel.

matrix

11-09-2006, 07:38 AM

fold preflop.

If you *have* to play these hands re-raise preflop. Playing OOP when you flop a draw - even a mahoosive 19out combo draw sucks bigtime.

re-raising preflop gives you the initiative and means that the villain has to make a hand on the flop (or already have a big pair) if he's going to call your re-raise/Continuation bet.

Having said that people at uNL don't call preflop re-raises very often unless you do it lots and they get fed up or more often they have a big hand preflop. (see the week 2 concept of the week thread)

also leading into a pfr is almost never a good plan unless you have a good hand to back it up - and a 6 out draw is not a good hand - hell it's not even a mediocre hand.

The idea most often when you lead into a pfr is that they raise you and you can then 3-bet all-in. This move is very strong and has a lot of FE (or some FE as there is very little FE to be found down at uNL as well) to do that you want to be holding a 10+ out draw or a genuine monster yourself - it's not something to do often.

tojx

11-09-2006, 07:49 AM

Hand1: Ok you have 6 outs for the nuts (3xT, 3x7) but your TPWK is probably behind on the flop. So calling to the push is -EV

Hand2: You're drawing here with 8 outs, OOP. No need to make the pot big which makes your draw more expensive. villains stake size is also too small here to make this a +EV play. If you had a 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif you could have pushed here. Here however I would probably fold to his first reraise (assuming he's standard tag)

HitNRunPoster

11-09-2006, 09:04 AM

Folding PF seems prudent, here.

However:

Ugh, I'm sorry but I know that FE > 0 when leading into a pfr.

HitNRunPoster

11-09-2006, 09:21 AM

If you look carefully at some of my posts, you can see that I was very indirectly asking about that, and the responses I received gave me the green light to implement it, before it became a concept of the week.

Given that I called PF, how would you play the flop with these hands?

Also, given the size of the raises that these guys gave me on the flop, what would have been the best way to play a set against them? It seems that the bet-push wouldn't work in this case. Oddly the bet/3b/call would, lol. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

But this could be a sample issue.

Gorilla Boy

11-09-2006, 09:26 AM

I don't like the PF action - I alsways fold PF in these situations /images/graemlins/cool.gif