How often do you call a flush draw on the flop w/o correct odds?

[cgiblaarg]

As a recent limit -> NL convert I think I'm still having trouble playing flush draws, specifically knowing when to continue past the flop when I'm not getting correct odds.

As a basic example, assume your standard 50NL full ring game with 100bb stacks. You are button with Td9d. UTG+1 (tag) raises 4x, MP2 (lag) calls and you call. Everyone else folds.

Flop is Kd 5d 2c. UTG+1 bets the pot, MP2 folds. How often would you call here? What conditions would make it right to do so? I know a lot of the equation is how likely you are to get paid off by villain if the flush does hit.

Same example, how would things change if:

- UTG+1 bet 3/4 pot instead of pot?
- MP2 called instead of folded.
- UTG+1 was the LAG and MP2 was the TAG?
- If you had the nut flush draw with Ad Td instead?

I find myself in similar situations often, a strong draw on the flop with only 1:1 odds. It feels like I'm giving up a lot in implied odds by folding flush draws any time I don't have immediate odds to continue.

[Vammakala]

Well it's often okay to call with an FD if you think you have the implied odds to do so. Unlike in Fixed, in NL the implied odds for flushes are generally smaller. You'd love to have the nut flush draw because you're pretty dead against bigger ones. Although it probably isn't the case in the hand you mentioned, you will also have to deal with the reverse implied odds.

If you call with the flushdraw on flop, you'd need around 4-to-1 to make the call expecting to hit with one card. You're getting 2-to-1 against a potsize bet. So if his bet is $3 into pot of $3, you need to make $6+ with the made hand once you hit on turn. IF there's a chance he'll check the turn and you can get a freecard, you're getting immediate odds for a breakeven call.

Generally it's good to call here, because if he has a hand like AA/AK, maybe even KK, your implied odds are way greater than the flop bet. That's also why it is sometimes good to semi-bluff raise the flop (harder to put you on FD), although in the full ring case, the EP TAG probably has a hand he might push with which makes it worse than just calling IMO.

And you really should note that you're not getting 1:1 odds. When your opponent pots it, the potsize is the initial potsize+your opponents bet. So you're in fact getting 2-to-1 which is by far a lot better.

If you think he's very weaktight and will fold to a bet if a flushcard hits on turn, you can check behind and valuebet river. This is very extreme against übernits though but after checking the turn behind, your opponents will probably call the river with any pair.

One thing to also notice that you don't HAVE TO play every draw you flop - although it's often correct because of the implied odds, it's rarely mandatory in HU pots with marginal odds. So go ahead and fold that non-nut draw in HU pot. With nutdraw, I'd most often call still, but there's no need to throw off chips. Also if you call the flop, note that your implied odds cut down on turn. If he bets pot on flop, giving you 2-to-1 to draw, his pot bet on turn will also give you 2-to-1 on a 4-to-1 shot, but your implied odds are unlikely to be as good as on the flop when the pot is still reasonably small.

[Vammakala]

Calling without implied odds would be stupid of course, but nobody does that. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

It's also a question of balance, sometimes people stack off with TPTK to the made flush and sometimes they check-fold it. This is something you have to do by feel and against your specific opponents. Some are just too weak tight to give the implied odds whilst some are open handedly givin' it to you.

[carnivalhobo]

if they dont bet small enough to make calling correct then raise !

[sosorry]

so if you call it, what do you do when the turns a blank and he bets the pot or half the pot?

[hockeyplayer33]

my question is what are you doing calling a 4xBB raise from a tight player in early position with T/9? Maybe you don't know how to play flush draws because you put your self in situations that you never should have gotten caught up in. Im not trying to critique you game, not trying to bash you just saying this would be a Preflop fold for me.

[jonyy6788]

You have odds to call pot-sized bet....how many villains ever bet more than the pot?

[tehDiceman]

i think i can agree with hockey here, the TAG raising OOP is probably not a good sign, although you could easily stack him on a monster flop that he leads into each time. almost a coin flip i think. i would probably fold. i've seen tons of flush draws bonk out from the four flush flop, you dont have the Ace, let it go this round and go for it on the next big hand you get.

[Phytopath]

I think calling with suited connectors on the button with 2 people in the pot, as long as the stacks are full is pretty standard. As for this hand, you can call...TAGs can get pretty gun-shy with decent hands once the pot gets big, also you can raise for the free card. Calling a FD getting 2:1 as long as you have plenty behind is fine.

[Sir Winalot]

As boho said, If you don't get odds then raise if you wan't to play. Implied odds are good for calls too.

[eigenvalue]

Out of position I would fold to all of these bets most of the times. There could be situations where I would call out of position, when I have a read on that player that he kames a CB only. In position, I would reraise for a free card 1 player or 2 players with the nut flush draw most of the times.

Reraising is good here for several reasons. You have a chance to take down that pot right now. If not, most of the times players will check the turn to You, so You can see 2 cards instead of one. Some players don't recognize You reraising for a free card and pay You off huge if You hit Your flush.

It is important to take Your own table image into account. If You reraise in these situations, people will have
problems to recognize when You are reraising with a draw or with a made hand. So even if You loose this hand, people will pay You off later in that session when they are more likely to call Your reraises with Your very strong hands.

[LaMbaL]

The most important thing to consider when drawing in NL is stack sizes relative to the pot. Stack sizes govern the implied odds, which constitute the biggest difference between drawing in NL and drawing in Limit.

As long as the pot is small relative to the stacks behind, its often correct to call a potsized bet on the flop. But you need to develop a feeling for how much of his stack villain will be prepared to put in the middle on a given hand, and that only comes with experience.

[ChipStorm]

cgi, your specific example is good because it's not a slam-dunk play. My 2c:

1. I think the preflop call is marginal. I only call here if I think one or both of the players is genuinely bad; otherwise T9s to a raise, even in position, is probably a fold. But it's close. If you are just getting started in NL, and are not particularly confident in your postflop game, then given the preflop raise this is an excellent hand to run away from.

2. I agree with hobo that if calling seems to be a problem, raising is often a strong option. But in your example, raising is problematic because the extra preflop caller bloated the pot to 13BB, and UTG+1 just bet another 13. For you to make a decent raise, you're pretty much committing your stack right there, and your draw and fold equity just don't amount to enough to do it IMO. But raising is often the right play, especially with the NON-nut draw. (See NLHETAP, "Concepts And Weapons")

3. As it is, with UTG+1 betting full pot, I likely call; but again it's pretty close, and I'm a drawing donk. We're getting 2:1 direct, UTG+1 has 80+ BB behind, and if the flush card hits on the turn there's a very good chance he will bet again, feeling the need to protect his hand, which will get us that much closer to recovering our investment. Again it's close, but I think you can reasonably expect to recover your the 4:1 you need on the call. (Unless UTG+1 is a strong, solid player, which is why vs. such a player I'd fold it preflop.)

4. For your alternate scenarios, I'm even more likely to call flop in each of those, except when LAG and TAG are swapped, in which case I'm more likely to fold. When the LAG at the table starts firing, the last thing I want to be looking at is a drawing hand, because that gets expensive way too quickly. I'll take a pocket pair instead, where I can either hit my set or fold quickly, without any more postflop speculative investment.

[cgiblaarg]

Thanks for the responses guys, you have definitely helped clear a few things up. I did try to come up with a scenario that doesn't have a completely standard play, and the responses seem to have reflected that.

I'm kind of surprised at people who recommend folding t9s from the button after an ep raise and one caller, both who have full stacks and one of which is a lag. I thought calling there was completely standard. I do see the point about it getting me into more difficult post flop situations though.

As for raising the flop with the flush draw, this was something I hadn't really considered. In limit I was used to raising flush draws on the flop for value when I had an equity edge, which I never had heads up.

For those that advocate a raise, I'm assuming a pot sized re raise would be standard? What happens if utg+1 shoves?

Or if utg+1 calls your raise, then donks 1/2 or 2/3 into you again on a blank turn?

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm kind of surprised at people who recommend folding t9s from the button after an ep raise and one caller, both who have full stacks and one of which is a lag. I thought calling there was completely standard. I do see the point about it getting me into more difficult post flop situations though.



[/ QUOTE ]

FYI - I would call this in position against 90% of opponents with a full stack.

But I can understand if you're just getting your feet wet that this is the kind of hand you can toss until you're more comfortable.

Re: the flop... other things to consider are- opponent read. He's tight and he cont. bet... but if you call and miss... will he check? ie- does he cont bet 100% or do you think he has something?

Since you have position, you can always call and see how he acts on the turn. He may have nothing. You may be able to bluff the turn regardless of what hits. (note- this is best with a read)

[Check_The_Nuts]

kurto:

are you really profitable calling with suited connectors in position? I'm assuming you do it more often when its likely to go multiway than headsup. IMO I don't really like to have ten high, or 7 high in a raised headsup pot without the initiative.

This is taking into account position. If cutoff open raises I'd call a fair bit and raise once in a while with a suited connector.

[kurto]

A few of my biggest hands have been suited connectors. I'm calling a small raise in position... I'm not going to get involved unless I flop big or have an opponent playing scared.

[Fuzzwah]

[ QUOTE ]
A few of my biggest hands have been suited connectors. I'm calling a small raise in position... I'm not going to get involved unless I flop big or have an opponent playing scared.

[/ QUOTE ]

Say you've called a 3x pfr with 87s and the flop comes 6sTc2h, giving you a gutshot and a backdoor flush draw. Pfr'er cbets, do you continue?