Flopped 2nd nuts, board pairs on turn

[Vammakala]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Hero ($113.55)
MP ($15.70)
Button ($50)
SB ($113.65)
BB ($83.70)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4.25) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3</font>, BB calls $3.

Turn: ($10.25) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $8.5</font>, Hero calls $8.50.

River: ($27.25) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $19</font>, Hero calls $19.

Final Pot: $65.25

Am I being overly weaktight here or calling down "too light"? I think I can't really fold, but I wasn't sure whether I can call either.

[shpanko]

Any reads on villain? I would probably raise his turn bet to 25 or so. If he's nitty then I don't mind calling down, but if you think you are always going to e beat here just because of this action then I think you are playing scared. I would almost never consider folding here. Sounds like you had a bad beat, so what? 99 percent of the time you are winning this hand and should be putting in a raise somewhere. I don't mind the way you played it if you have a read but this looks like results oriented thinking when you say you don't think you can call. You have a king high flush for christ's sake and he has no reason to put you on a flush the way you played it.

[Vammakala]

What range of hands do you think he has here then? I wasn't quite sure what he'd ~pot the turn and almost pot the river with?

His range can't be that huge.

Villain is _2_4_0_0 with stats 19/11/1.43 over 250 hands (turn and river agg 0.75). Went to showdown 21.8%, won at showdown: 58.33%.

Although I didn't have this much information at the time of playing this hand. But I had some statistics pointing towards a TAGgy player.

[Bowlboy]

Can we rule out pocket 4's here since its so unlikely? That said, the only way BB has actually moved ahead of you on the turn is with 2pair or a set (sixes or sevens) on the flop. I think most players with such a hand that includes no diamonds would not really want to give their opponent a chance to see another diamond so they would check raise. An overpair such as 88 would also likely raise this flop.
Just doesnt make sense that BB has a hand that beats you here, so I'm raising this turn.

Likely holding here for villain is A4 possibly with the Ad.

[thac]

Hm, _2_4_0_0 is a pretty decent multitabling TAG, but kind of passive with a tendency to be passive and call a lot after a while (what I have on him), so I think with him betting out this strongly on turn and river he has to have something decent. I don't think he has a 54s-type hand because I've never seen him defend his blinds with that type of hand.

I would call though for information purposes, but I'd expect to be behind at least half the time.

[thac]

[ QUOTE ]
Can we rule out pocket 4's here since its so unlikely? That said, the only way BB has actually moved ahead of you on the turn is with 2pair or a set (sixes or sevens) on the flop. I think most players with such a hand that includes no diamonds would not really want to give their opponent a chance to see another diamond so they would check raise. An overpair such as 88 would also likely raise this flop.
Just doesnt make sense that BB has a hand that beats you here, so I'm raising this turn.

Likely holding here for villain is A4 possibly with the Ad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think villain is dumb enough to call OOP with A4, but I agree with like an A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/club.gif or something in that range. I don't expect him to call any less than AT though, if that.

[Vammakala]

Yea so am I getting this right - you're putting him on either a boat or overpair since he probably wouldn't just bluff the river, being a solid TAG ?

Just to make an argument for calling instead of raising. If I raise as shpanko suggest, which worse hands will I get a call from?

[thac]

Not much, maybe a lower flush but I don't see him calling with QTd or something similar. I would just flat river.

[shpanko]

Once you get to river the flat call is ok, I would be inclined to raise and fold to a large re-raise but flat calling the river is ok. Usually when people c/c a three flush flop and then lead out on a safe (non-flush card) turn, it's because their hand is vulnerable on the flop and they don't want to put much money in until the turn bricks. I can see top two, an overpair, and a straight playing this way if the villain is a bit nitty.

If villain had a strong amde hand like a boat he wouldn't mind you checking behind and wouldn't risk you folding by potting the turn. I think you are ahead here a lot more than you think. If you lost the hand that's too bad but I still think you're losing value.

[matrix]

DO you vary you CB size according to texture or always CB the same amount (?)

I'd pot this flop as it's very drawy (villain migh well have a lone A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and be drawing to the nuts) which would suck if we let him get there cheap cos that Ace is never folding to a PSB on this flop.

Turn is fine I think.

minraise the river - any flush is calling and most hands with a 5 in are calling as well as they just hit the straight.

Yes it sucks if he turned a boat - if he's aggro enough to push the river if we minraise then we have a problem - but we can't automatically assume that players with "Taggy stats" which is as much as you knew at the time are good and or solid players - most of them are actually awful.

A river minraise looks like we're drawing and bluffing him off his worse flush - or we just hit a straight ourselves so I'd expect to get called by worse hands plenty.

[shpanko]

I think villain had 88 and got lucky, it's too bad but I think you have to call that river with how strong your hand is. Folding this would get you run over int he long run.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I calling down "too light"?

[/ QUOTE ]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

also whenever i take villains line i usually don't have much of a hand. stacks are deep enough you can raise the turn and get value out of trips, straights, overpairs, big lone diamonds, etc. and still fold to a big shove if you want.

also taggy stats does not equal good postflop (or even preflop) player, the sooner you learn this the better

[restrikt]

call and expect to see A4 with A of diamonds.

[Jigsaws]

_2_4_0_0 is pretty good. Not completely certain, but I think he posts here under some name. This really doesn't look like a flopped set or flush to me, since he's usually pretty aggro. At least I haven't seen him slowplay. Somebody suggested 88, which makes sense to me.

A4o really doesn't make sense. He's never ever calling that in the bb.

The problem in this hand is that you're nearly 200bbs deep. If this were 100bbs, I raise the turn, call a push. Maybe I bet-fold the turn here. Meh, I'm not sure.

[thac]

Yeah I saw him posting about a hand a couple days ago, I forget what his name is on here. 88 kinda makes sense. I still say flat calling is best here. Least risk, because you have some showdown value, but you can't stand a shove if you raise.

[Bonesy]

I'm on the tighter side so I would lean to the "not lose 200 BB's on this hand" camp. It feels like a set hoping you have an overpair or an A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. It looks like he's betting the turn so you won't check behind. I'm curious to know what he had.

[Vammakala]

Okay since I'm getting gazillion different statements, everyone suggesting different approaches, here's a poll. I will post the result of the hand later. And that "calling down light" wasn't really what it sounded like - more so "Can I find a fold or should I be pushing or is calling down fine" kind of question.

[Vammakala]

Bump for the poll

[Echelon]

raise turn and river

[Vammakala]

The general consensus seemed to be that I should just call down although raise got the second most "points". The more i've thought about it, the more i've thought raising could in fact be better in this spot since he can't really put me on the flush as it was played.

As I called down, he showed 89s for lower flush. Mmm... missed value in there.

[Check_The_Nuts]

I thought he was block betting that turn/river. Flop check/call and turn bet is usually a weakly made hand, thats why the river was so ??? (did he hook a boat?)

Hence the call down. I think he folds to a turn raise.

I also didn't expect a preflop call from BB with suited connectors. I don't do that...

[orange]

I think you played this fine. 2400 is my friend, we knew each other from a computer game a few years back. He has a sn here on 2+2 but doesnt post as often (HBomb).

I think OP played it fine. I might raise the turn for value, but not really sure.

[HBomb]

Hey guys, thanks for the comments about me. Didn't realize there were people who actually think I have positive qualities about my cash games /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Orange, my friend, is always criticizing me of my plays and theory lol.. he's a player I want to become like.

But about the hand, it sure was a NH on your part, you played it well. There aren't too many people that i give respect to at the $50 NL's anymore. I know I gotta respect you more often now, as well as my friend rebuyboy who also posts here under the same name I think or rebuy, as well as "brudman" he is also a decent player I try to avoid confrontations with alot of times. Other than that I'm out to stack most people. Generally the more i get to know people who I'm playing against, the more respect I give them.

Personally, I would've potted the hand the entire way, if you moved in on the river, I probably would've folded (90%) sure. I wasn't willing to lose 160 BB's on that type of hand where I was never the aggressor. I'm just glad I wasn't the one leading into you thankfully, had we been all in on the flop, there was a good chance I might of called, hoping you had a set or an AdKx something of that nature, maybe even a flopped straight? Who knows... NH

Nice hand.