I Mean You Might As Well End It

[SpicFaLife]

What if I told you that last night while you slept, you had a dream? And in this dream, you were incredibly happy and fulfilled, and that for 8 hours, you were completely satisfied. But, when you woke up, you immediately forgot the dream, and won’t ever remember it. Now, with that said, do you really care if the dream was good or bad? Long or short? It is of no consequence to you now that you’re awake. You simply don’t care.

Now for arguments sake, let’s say that when you die, you cease to exist, and you feel nothing forever. When you die, life would have been like that dream you had last night. The dream that means nothing to you right now, because you can’t remember it and it has no relevance. When you cease to exist, it doesn’t matter if your life was fulfilling or not. You’re not going to care if you were content or depressed. It’s no different than waking up from a dream you can’t remember having.

So then why do people who believe that this is their fate, live their lives like they do? Going to work 8 hours a day 5 days a week, never taking holidays, watching sitcoms on television, and wasting their time reading crap on internet forums, not unlike this. Logically speaking, it would make no difference if you killed yourself right now. You would just wake up a little earlier from your pathetic dream that you wont remember anyway. You’re living a lie. You’re fooling yourself into thinking that there is meaning, and that things matter. Don’t tell me that you’re happy now and that’s all that matters. You’re not happy. I’ve seen you complaining about your wretched life, trying to change yourself, and better yourself. You’re dreaming right now, and your dream is not even pleasant, it’s a nightmare. I mean, you might as well just end it.

[Paragon]

you first

[vhawk01]

I can only assume the lack of responses to your compelling and insightful OP are a direct result of its persuasiveness.

[Hopey]

You know, I never thought of it that way. I guess I have no choice but to put my faith in the lord Jesus Christ. Otherwise all this is meaningless.

I wonder if txag is available to do a baptism at this late hour...

[guesswest]

Considered killing myself, but before I do, I have a question - why does something have to last forever for it to have meaning?

[Alex/Mugaaz]

Well, if you remember the dream, and that's all you had to remember...you'd sure feel like an idiot.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
you first

[/ QUOTE ]

To be followed by a "Well, bye."

/images/graemlins/heart.gif Curly Bill Brosius. "Just funnin', Dad."

[Sephus]

i do agree that after i die it will make no difference how i lived. my future happiness, however, has a positive value to me, so it's better now that i don't kill myself. does it really have to be more complicated than that?

[Pauwl]

This is why I'm not afraid to die. It's not a reason for me to kill myself.

And sitcoms make me happy.

[benjdm]

[ QUOTE ]
So then why do people who believe that this is their fate, live their lives like they do? Going to work 8 hours a day 5 days a week, never taking holidays, watching sitcoms on television, and wasting their time reading crap on internet forums, not unlike this.

[/ QUOTE ]
Possibly, they are maximizing their happiness while they live ? Ya think ?

[ QUOTE ]
Logically speaking, it would make no difference if you killed yourself right now.

[/ QUOTE ]
From the cosmic point of view, no, it wouldn't make any difference. From the point of view of the one short life I will have, I am in no hurry to end it. I'll enjoy it while I can, thank you very much.

[ QUOTE ]
You would just wake up a little earlier from your pathetic dream that you wont remember anyway. You’re living a lie. You’re fooling yourself into thinking that there is meaning, and that things matter. Don’t tell me that you’re happy now and that’s all that matters. You’re not happy. I’ve seen you complaining about your wretched life, trying to change yourself, and better yourself. You’re dreaming right now, and your dream is not even pleasant, it’s a nightmare. I mean, you might as well just end it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Meaning is self-referential; I define the meaning in my own life. It is the only way meaning can exist for anyone. Any external source for meaning will result in infinite regress to higher sources of meaning -> no meaning whatsoever. There is no cosmic meaning to reality. There can't be. Even if I grant you a God and an afterlife, the God's existence has no external source of meaning; existence is still meaningless on an absolute scale.

In short: grow up.

[Magic_Man]

I'm not really sure why the responses to this post are so harsh. As an agnostic/atheist/whatever, I struggle with OP's same thoughts. I think of it more in terms of memory. Memory is the only way we have of "knowing" our lives. Remember the movie "Total Recall"? They inserted memories of fun vacations into people's heads, and it was just as good as actually going on the vacation. If you don't remember what you did this morning, then it's just as good as your having not done it. If the atheists are right, then when this is all over, how you lived your life won't matter. This is why many atheists wish that there was a God. Unless you are fooling yourself, how do atheists find meaning/happiness in life?

~MagicMan

[MaxWeiss]

In the grand scheme of the whole universe(s) and all of time, it could certainly be argued that nothing really matters. Yeah, nothing we do affects much on that scale. BUT since we are here, there is no reason we cannot try to enjoy it, no reason not to try to help others enjoy it, and no reason not to try and continue to expand and advance ourselves at large. Just because you finally woke up and realized there's no grand cosmic plan for you (born again atheist???) doesn't mean that you cannot make an impression on the universe, and it doesn't mean that mankind cannot go on for quite a long while. I personally have derived some basic goals for life, given that after I die I cease to exist: be happy, try to make others (mainly loved ones) happy and show them that you care, help others, and advance humanity. Most of how I live and plan my life is based on accomplishing those things in my lifetime. But hey if you want to go "off" yourself, like I said, it's not going to really do much in the whole grad scheme of things. But why would you??? Don't you feel extraordinarily lucky to have evolved and become aware to the point that you can appreciate life for what it is??? No misunderstandings, misconceptions or lies. Just as it is. Beautiful and wondrous. (And before you do go kill yourself, think of those who love you and how much that would irreparably hurt them. Don't be selfish like that, don't just give up. Find support, and create your own purpose.)

[MaxWeiss]

It will matter how you lived. You have the capacity to affect others and their lives and future. You can do lasting good and harm. Your own future happiness and others' future happiness have value.

[MaxWeiss]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't remember what you did this morning, then it's just as good as your having not done it. If the atheists are right, then when this is all over, how you lived your life won't matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if you don't remember, it DOES matter. You affect others.

[ QUOTE ]
This is why many atheists wish that there was a God. Unless you are fooling yourself, how do atheists find meaning/happiness in life?

[/ QUOTE ]

We create meaning for ourselves. Why does happiness and meaning of life have to come from an outside source??? I am happy and my life has purpose because I have the ability to enjoy life and the ability to affect others in a positive way. I can leave lasting good, and take comfort in knowing that others will enjoy it long after I die. Again, what makes meaning from within less meaningful?? Just because it's not part of some higher plan??? But it is. Just not some "God".

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not really sure why the responses to this post are so harsh.

[/ QUOTE ]
maybe the tone that suggests we find our lives worthless or even of negative value. I don't care what he thinks unless he tries to do us a favour.

The op sounded very bitter to me but that's no excuse to project his problems onto us.

chez

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Logically speaking, it would make no difference if you killed yourself right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Logically speaking it would almost certainly make a difference. Logically placing some sort of value on that difference would require some valuative premises to work from. Logic can't provide meaning, not even if you're Christian.

The Christians on this forum have recently become fond of saying that because reason doesn't suggest that any one thing is "better" than another, everything must be considered equal from an atheist perspective. That makes about as much sense as saying that because a hammer can't be used to do arithmetic, an abacus is superior to a hammer. Logic is a tool, and it can't be used to ascribe values. That's not what it's good for. If you want me to do arithmetic, I'll pull out a calculator and then we'll talk about superiority.

If I've misinterpreted and you aren't trying to rag on atheists (sorry, we're getting a lot of this stuff lately), then... According to pure reason, it's no "better" to live than to die. However, reason must work according to some set of premises. You seem to include a number of loaded assumptions in your OP - what is the true implication of those assumptions? I don't believe that it's necessarily what you're suggesting.

At any rate, my assumptions about value are very different, and based on those assumptions a happy dream matters quite a bit, even if I don't remember it. My alarm woke me from an awful dream this morning, and I hope I don't have any similar dreams tonight - regardless of whether I remember them.

[benjdm]

[ QUOTE ]
This is why many atheists wish that there was a God. Unless you are fooling yourself, how do atheists find meaning/happiness in life?

~MagicMan

[/ QUOTE ]
I do wish there was an afterlife. As far as wishing a god did or didn't exist, I'm pretty neutral. As far as the harsh tone: I've probably been debating too long where the getting told I'm a) completely immoral b) have a meaningless existence c) a fool who is vile and does no good. If you think about it, a) and b) are completely independent of reality being theistic or atheistic, only most theists haven't realized it yet. They are both typical "My idea of creating / meaning / morality must have an external creator / source / source, which leads me to infinite regress, therefore God."

[Magic_Man]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is why many atheists wish that there was a God. Unless you are fooling yourself, how do atheists find meaning/happiness in life?

~MagicMan

[/ QUOTE ]
I do wish there was an afterlife. As far as wishing a god did or didn't exist, I'm pretty neutral. As far as the harsh tone: I've probably been debating too long where the getting told I'm a) completely immoral b) have a meaningless existence c) a fool who is vile and does no good. If you think about it, a) and b) are completely independent of reality being theistic or atheistic, only most theists haven't realized it yet. They are both typical "My idea of creating / meaning / morality must have an external creator / source / source, which leads me to infinite regress, therefore God."

[/ QUOTE ]

Being somewhere in the atheist camp myself, I agree for the most part. The arguments about us being immoral are completely false, of course, and upon further reflection, OP's post was fairly aggressive. But what I'm talking about is memory. I wish desperately that there was an afterlife, because with no afterlife, I am gone completely when I die. An earlier poster said that he hopes he doesn't have a nightmare tonight, even if he doesn't remember it. This is illogical to me; if I won't remember it, I don't care what I dream about tonight. It doesn't matter if I'm dreaming about my greatest fears or a thousand beautiful women - when I wake up, it will all be over. How can I seek happiness in life when it won't matter in the end?

[benjdm]

[ QUOTE ]
I wish desperately that there was an afterlife, because with no afterlife, I am gone completely when I die.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree wholeheartedly.

[ QUOTE ]
How can I seek happiness in life when it won't matter in the end?

[/ QUOTE ]
Won't matter to whom ?

While I'm alive, it matters to me. It isn't of cosmic importance, it's finite, it's temporary, but it is all that anyone has, in my opinion. I'd much rather live forever or at least live as long as I wished to, but I'm not making that decision. I'm definitely not seeing the reality of a short life as an argument to make it shorter like the OP said, though. It is what it is.

[FortunaMaximus]

It'll matter to the maid who has to clean up, whether it's matter on the walls or you've soiled your pants.

[vhawk01]

I dont plan on dying, or at least not anytime in the next couple hundred/thousand years, so I guess the OP doesn't apply to me.

[samsonite2100]

[ QUOTE ]
What if I told you that last night while you slept, you had a dream? And in this dream, you were incredibly happy and fulfilled, and that for 8 hours, you were completely satisfied. But, when you woke up, you immediately forgot the dream, and won’t ever remember it. Now, with that said, do you really care if the dream was good or bad? Long or short? It is of no consequence to you now that you’re awake. You simply don’t care.

Now for arguments sake, let’s say that when you die, you cease to exist, and you feel nothing forever. When you die, life would have been like that dream you had last night. The dream that means nothing to you right now, because you can’t remember it and it has no relevance. When you cease to exist, it doesn’t matter if your life was fulfilling or not. You’re not going to care if you were content or depressed. It’s no different than waking up from a dream you can’t remember having.

So then why do people who believe that this is their fate, live their lives like they do? Going to work 8 hours a day 5 days a week, never taking holidays, watching sitcoms on television, and wasting their time reading crap on internet forums, not unlike this. Logically speaking, it would make no difference if you killed yourself right now. You would just wake up a little earlier from your pathetic dream that you wont remember anyway. You’re living a lie. You’re fooling yourself into thinking that there is meaning, and that things matter. Don’t tell me that you’re happy now and that’s all that matters. You’re not happy. I’ve seen you complaining about your wretched life, trying to change yourself, and better yourself. You’re dreaming right now, and your dream is not even pleasant, it’s a nightmare. I mean, you might as well just end it.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if last night you had a dream where you were totally happy and also believed that you would remember the dream forever? And then you woke up and didn't remember it. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Also, I'm not fooling myself into thinking there is meaning or that things matter. I think you're way off base in assuming that everyone has the same teleological belief system as Christians. I don't kill myself because my life brings me pleasure, not because I think it's worth a rat's hairy ass in some magical grand scheme.

[Magic_Man]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wish desperately that there was an afterlife, because with no afterlife, I am gone completely when I die.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree wholeheartedly.

[ QUOTE ]
How can I seek happiness in life when it won't matter in the end?

[/ QUOTE ]
Won't matter to whom ?

While I'm alive, it matters to me. It isn't of cosmic importance, it's finite, it's temporary, but it is all that anyone has, in my opinion. I'd much rather live forever or at least live as long as I wished to, but I'm not making that decision. I'm definitely not seeing the reality of a short life as an argument to make it shorter like the OP said, though. It is what it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'm definitely with you on the no-reason-to-kill-yourself front. What I am saying is that the no-afterlife scenario is incredibly, overwhelmingly depressing. Doesn't it bother the other atheists?

[benjdm]

[ QUOTE ]
What I am saying is that the no-afterlife scenario is incredibly, overwhelmingly depressing. Doesn't it bother the other atheists?

[/ QUOTE ]

It only <u>really</u> bothered me for a little while (like a decade or so.....I know, not so little /images/graemlins/smile.gif ) but I'm OK with it now. I still wish otherwise, though.

[Hopey]

[ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'm definitely with you on the no-reason-to-kill-yourself front. What I am saying is that the no-afterlife scenario is incredibly, overwhelmingly depressing. Doesn't it bother the other atheists?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a little scary, I suppose. Which is all the more reason to try to put off dying as long as possible.

That being said, it's not like I'll "know" that I'm dead. I'll be completely oblivious to it, so in that sense it won't be scary at all.

[Lestat]

Just because I'm an atheist, doesn't mean I can't learn from a priest. I once heard the following story.

A reporter showed up to an elderly priest's home to do an interview and found the priest working in his garden. The reporter asked him, "What would you if you found out that tonight would be your last night on earth?". The priest responded, "Why I would continue working on my garden".

For some reason that story really made a terrific impression on me. What a perfect attitude! Does it really matter what your after-life beliefs are? So theists think they're going to a place called heaven when they die and atheists don't. One of them will be right. But what really matters is how we use our time before that moment while we're still here on earth.

[Mickey Brausch]

It's buy in either at the minimum or the maximum possible amount. But not in between.

Live your life either as if you were gonna die tomorrow, or as if you gonna live forever. But not in between.

[ QUOTE ]
A reporter showed up to an elderly priest's home to do an interview and found the priest working in his garden. The reporter asked him, "What would you if you found out that tonight would be your last night on earth?". The priest responded, "Why I would continue working on my garden".
<font color="white"> . </font>
For some reason that story really made a terrific impression on me. What a perfect attitude! Does it really matter what your after-life beliefs are? So theists think they're going to a place called heaven when they die and atheists don't. One of them will be right. But what really matters is how we use our time before that moment while we're still here on earth.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I could be like that.

Mickey Brausch

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
It's buy in either at the minimum or the maximum possible amount. But not in between.

Live your life either as if you were gonna die tomorrow, or as if you gonna live forever. But not in between.

[ QUOTE ]
A reporter showed up to an elderly priest's home to do an interview and found the priest working in his garden. The reporter asked him, "What would you if you found out that tonight would be your last night on earth?". The priest responded, "Why I would continue working on my garden".
<font color="white"> . </font>
For some reason that story really made a terrific impression on me. What a perfect attitude! Does it really matter what your after-life beliefs are? So theists think they're going to a place called heaven when they die and atheists don't. One of them will be right. But what really matters is how we use our time before that moment while we're still here on earth.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I could be like that.

Mickey Brausch

[/ QUOTE ]
You need to start by stoping all those maximising utility calculations. They are not the path to maximising happiness.

chez

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
A reporter showed up to an elderly priest's home to do an interview and found the priest working in his garden. The reporter asked him, "What would you if you found out that tonight would be your last night on earth?". The priest responded, "Why I would continue working on my garden".

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, that priest has the right idea.

To the OP - what about the importance of the present moment? The only moment you really are alive is in the present moment. Yet many people live their entire lives obsessed with guilt (concern with past moments), or worry (concern with future moments).

Catholics hit the exacta: they wrack themselves with guilt about their past sins, then they torment themselves with worry about whether they will get into heaven when they die.

It is all a means of avoiding the present moment, which is all there really is.

The idea of our eventual non-existence is certainly not the most comforting, but there is no point in wasting your present moments worrying about it.

[Lestat]

What is it about the year 2027 that provides for a meaningful 2006?

All of you who require a promised future to live out today are a pitiful group indeed.

[govman6767]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not really sure why the responses to this post are so harsh.

[/ QUOTE ]
maybe the tone that suggests we find our lives worthless or even of negative value. I don't care what he thinks unless he tries to do us a favour.

The op sounded very bitter to me but that's no excuse to project his problems onto us.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

If you look in the psychology forum there is nothing but I hate myself, wanna kill myself threads.

OP had a real bad gambling day and wondered what was next.

I think on a universal scale one person can make a difference because 3000 years from now one of you decendants may discover the secrets of the universe.
How to alter space and time. blah blah.
If you killed yourself you may destroy the future of mankind.

[Matt R.]

[ QUOTE ]
Catholics hit the exacta: they wrack themselves with guilt about their past sins, then they torment themselves with worry about whether they will get into heaven when they die.


[/ QUOTE ]

Holy crap, you got us. It's a good thing you said this about Catholics and didn't make a blanket statement about blacks or Hispanics. Otherwise you might get called a bigot. Good thing!

PS -- if you're actually curious, Catholic beliefs should have pretty much the exact opposite effect of what you said. Catholics should be able to let go of past sins because they are forgiven, and they should not worry about getting into heaven because the best they can do is live a good life (or follow Jesus' teachings, if you prefer). If they actually live like a Catholic should, there should be zero worry involved. I'm sorry some past experience completely distorted your view of Catholics, and that you project these feelings against this group onto all Catholics. Fighting bigotry with bigotry usually isn't the best strategy though.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry some past experience completely distorted your view of Catholics, and that you project these feelings against this group onto all Catholics. Fighting bigotry with bigotry usually isn't the best strategy though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I was a Catholic for over 30 years so I only have my own experience to go by... it isn't bigotry to say Catholicism and guilt go hand-in-hand IMO. Masturbation, premarital sex, birth control, homosexual feelings, abortion, ORIGINAL SIN... for crying out loud even infants have something to feel guilty about.

I wish people would not cry bigotry every time someone makes an observation they don't agree with. My entire family is practicing Catholic and they joke about "Catholic guilt" all the time.

[Lestat]

Matt-

I think you're being too hard on revots. "Catholic guilt" is legendary. Are you saying it's just a stereotype?

Just because you're forgiven for a sin doesn't mean the guilt goes away. I have wronged people in my life and been forgiven, but I still feel bad about it.

Also, there is always some doubt you'll make it to heaven. Even if you get past the doubt that heaven even exists in the first place, there's the doubt that you have met ALL requirements to get in. If you personally have ZERO doubts about this, you are an exception. You WILL sin in the future and cannot know for sure God will forgive you. Otherwise, you are claiming to know the mind of God.

[Matt R.]

Well, it is definitely different in the Catholic environment I've grown up in. Therefore, it is not the same everywhere. There are certainly preachers/priests/etc. that do the whole guilt thing, which is unfortunate. I've heard this before.

However, because Catholics are definitely not like that everywhere, it is a bigoted comment to say that Cathlolics are miserable because of how guilty they are over sin and worry about getting into heaven. Bad priests cause the worry, but it's not an inherent property of the religion.

[Matt R.]

Lestat,
I think that the whole "Catholic guilt" thing is definitely a stereotype. We've grown up in a culture where we've gone to the movies and seen a preacher in Alabama talking about how everyone is going to burn in hell for der homosexual relations. Religion and culture are inseparable -- I do agree that certain cultures, which unfortunately (? -- I guess in the sense they give the religion a bad name) are Catholic do follow the whole guilt-trip regimen. It's unfortunate that this is what Christianity can become in the hands of certain people that think it's good to scare everyone.

But, because there are almost certainly (I would guess that the multiple churches I've been to which are NOT like this aren't some highly unlikely fluke) a lot of groups of Catholics which are not like this, I think it is definitely bigoted to make a blanket statement like this about Catholics.

I do have doubts about the whole heaven thing, because I have no proof. Perhaps I worry occasionally, but I'm not perfect. However, since I cannot know the mind of God, the best I can do is live a good life... so there is no point in worrying about it. You CAN worry about it, but you don't have to because you're a Catholic as revots suggested.

[Matt R.]

Oh yeah, as for an example which may make it easier to see why I have a problem with revots statement:

I live in a big city where, unfortunately, there are a lot of poor black people. I have had a few unfortunate run-ins with blacks who have tried to cause trouble with me because I have money or because I'm white. Therefore, all blacks are criminals. After all, as revots said:

"I wish people would not cry bigotry every time someone makes an observation they don't agree with."

I'm just making an observation based on personal experience. I substituted bigotry and racism because it dealt with prejudice against a belief (not a race), and I couldn't think of a good word to substitute for prejudice against Catholics.

[Lestat]

I suppose it's possible I was brought up in a "culture" of Catholic guilt, but I don't think so. Things I felt guilty about included every time I heard of someone less fortunate. I always wondered why God gave me the life I had (which was good), while better Christians suffered so. There was no way for me to reconcile this. I always felt unworthy and undeserving of all that God had given me. That's guilt.

I also felt guilt for my sins. Even if God forgave me, I sinned. I would sometimes do something I knew beforehand was a sin (or felt strongly it was). Have you never done this? This caused me tremendous guilt.

Of course, all this made gave me some doubt about getting into heaven. You're right there may be no point in worrying about it, but it's the very reason you practice your faith, isn't it? Isn't that the whole goal? To spend eternity with God? Why shouldn't one worry about that? Especially when you consider the alternative.

So what do you think my problem was? Are you saying I was unique? Why wouldn't most Catholics have these same issues?

[revots33]

Matt - apologies if I offended, my statement was really intended to be a tongue-in-cheek statement about "Catholic guilt", not a blanket indictment of all Catholics.

I still maintain, though, that the Catholic church, by it's very doctrine (especially on sexual matters and original sin), emphasizes guilt. My criticism is directed at the teachings of the church, not at the many good people who are Catholics (my family and most of my close friends included!).

[Matt R.]

Does not being Catholic alleviate you of your guilt though? Do you feel guilty because you eat gormet meals while someone in Africa starves? Do you ever feel guilty for doing something bad, or do you only feel guilty when a priest calls that something bad a "sin"? Have you ever planned to do something beforehand you knew was wrong, yet you did it anyway and felt bad about it? Did you only feel guilty when it was called a "sin" and had religion connotations?

Basically, I object to the linking of Catholicism with guilt. The actions you describe which made you feel guilty should not make you feel guilty because you are Catholic, but because you feel something is inherently wrong with the situation.

[ QUOTE ]
You're right there may be no point in worrying about it, but it's the very reason you practice your faith, isn't it? Isn't that the whole goal?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not for me. I practice my faith because it is philosophically sound and leads one to a happy life. What better way to live your life than to treat everyone with love? It seems that the only "real" source of happiness in this world is your relationships with other people -- and when you "Treat others as you would have them treat you", it maximizes these relationships. My goal isn't to be rewarded in any way when I die -- I practice my religion because I think Jesus had it right. I think a lot of people emphasize the life after death thing to draw people to the religion -- which is probably pretty effective. But it's not the be all end all from my personal perspective.

I don't think you had a problem or were unique. I think you probably grew up in a different environment than I did and it led you to think that Catholicism wasn't for you. If you want to know the truth, I thought about denouncing my religion at one point when the whole molestation thing came out. But after some thought I realized that you must separate the people of the church from the teachings of Jesus. With a culture as big as Catholicism you're bound to have some bad people in it. When I realized I still agreed with Jesus' message I decided I was still okay with calling myself Catholic or Christian.

Basically my point with the last bit was that you probably just had different experiences than I did. I think if I grew up around priests that constantly made me feel horrible, I would have left the church and found something else as well.

[Matt R.]

revots,
Not a problem. You have to understand that I see a lot of stuff like that on these boards -- and a lot of it isn't tongue-in-cheek /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[Lestat]

But forget about the church, the priests and all that... All that matters is if you believe in God and that He gave you the gift of life and your place on earth.

If you had a brother or sister that was sick and needed medicine and your parents refused to buy it for them because it was too expensive, but instead went out and bought you a brand new bicycle, wouldn't you feel guilty about riding around on that new bike while your brother or sister suffered?

I'm just saying my guilt had nothing to do with priests or what I was taught. I was guilty because I was not the best Christian, yet God gave me more than others who were much better Christians than I. He gave me a nice family and good health, while other Christian kids lived in poverty and died of cancer.

Surely you've had the experience of knowing someone just as deserving as you who's life is much worse than yours through no fault of their own. It does not require bad priests or a certain environment to cause guilt, just a belief in a Christian God.

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]

You need to start by stoping all those maximising utility calculations. They are not the path to maximising happiness.



[/ QUOTE ]Who's trying to maximize anything? We're just trying to get by.

[FortunaMaximus]

So that implies maximizing the utility with the minimum of effort that you need to get by.

All donks are asses and all women have beautiful asses. Or something.

[dknightx]

[ QUOTE ]

To the OP - what about the importance of the present moment? The only moment you really are alive is in the present moment. Yet many people live their entire lives obsessed with guilt (concern with past moments), or worry (concern with future moments).

Catholics hit the exacta: they wrack themselves with guilt about their past sins, then they torment themselves with worry about whether they will get into heaven when they die


[/ QUOTE ]

Thats the thing ... TRUE christian teaching is one where you are only concerned about the present ... you don't need to feel guilty about the past, and you do not need to worry about the future. The reason why you see a lot of christians doing either of the two is because they are humans like everyone else.

any sense of guilt or uncertainty of the future comes from the self.

[Matt R.]

Lestat,
I think you are making 2 assumptions that I may disagree with.

1) People who have less possessions and/or resources are necessarily less happy than those who have more.

2) God gives some people more and some people less.

#1 can be true, but I don't think it is necessarily true. I think I can be far happier than a millionare with no financial worries. I think someone who is relatively poor can potentially be happier than me and have a better life.

Now there are some who are SO poor that they are in constant suffering. That brings us to #2. I don't think God makes it that way. I think it is a consequence of environment and society. Namely, limited resources (not everyone can have all the food they want), and the unwillingness of the rich to help out those who *really* need what they have. Which kind of brings me back to why I'm a Christian. Christ would almost certainly teach the correct way to live would be to help the poor and suffering out in any way you possibly could (even if it is, sometimes, at your own expense). If *everyone* lived like that, suffering would go down dramatically. Even if one person lives like that, suffering can go down dramatically for quite a few people (even if the impact on the world as a whole is negligible).

Perhaps some people are beyond help -- i.e. those with terminal cancer. However, I still don't think God is punishing them in any way -- it's a natural consequence of creation (biology, genetics, etc.). This is sort of why my faith dictates that I believe in an afterlife (more to it than that, but it's one part of it). I don't think that the God I believe in would allow an extreme suffering to occur -- and then when all that suffering is over they simply cease to exist. Even the Bible says things along the lines of "the poor will be rich in heaven" (paraphrase). Of course this goes off the assumption that whoever created our universe loves his creation. He could be a neutral party and not care. Or it could not even be conscious and our universe is the way it is because it had to be and we don't or can't understand why. BUT, the reason I consider myself a Catholic isn't because of the metaphysical beliefs. I'm a Catholic because I agree with the fundamental philisophical teachings of Jesus. The unprovable metaphysical stuff (like the afterlife) kind of tags along for the ride, although I do have my reasons for believing some of those things are more likely true than false.

[Lestat]

Well I don't think you can go wrong living your life by believing in and following the teachings of Jesus. Although I'd love to get your interpretation and thoughts on much of the Old Testement.

And yes.. I was speaking not being better off in terms of financial wealth (my family was not rich), but in other ways. Such as children who must go through life a parapaligic, blind, or with other debilitating afflictions. Suffering from leukemia, etc. Whether there's an after-life or not, it doesn't seem fair that some people suffer like that under a loving god while others don't. Without an intervening god, the world makes much more sense.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a Catholic because I agree with the fundamental philisophical teachings of Jesus. The unprovable metaphysical stuff (like the afterlife) kind of tags along for the ride, although I do have my reasons for believing some of those things are more likely true than false.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is always the possibility that you are catholic because you weren't raised by a mullah in Syria, and everything else is rationalizing that fact ?? That has to be one of the toughest hurdles for a thinking theist to overcome, explaining situational beliefs. Realizing that correlation doesn't prove causation, but there is one heck of a lot of correlation between childhood environment and adult religious 'choice' that seems more than mere coincidence.

luckyme

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
any sense of guilt or uncertainty of the future comes from the self.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno about this... who is likely to feel guilty about masturbating, a Catholic boy or a non-believer? Who is more likely to feel guilt over having premarital sex with her boyfriend, a Catholic girl or an athiest?

The Catholic church fosters guilt by proclaiming as "sins" things that are completely natural for human beings.

[Matt R.]

luckyme,
You're right, I wouldn't be Catholic if I was never exposed to Catholicism. I'm not sure what I would "be", as far as what group(s) I would associate myself with.

What I meant by the statement you quoted was that I have made the decision to remain a Catholic because I agree with Jesus' teachings. I was never forced to remain a Catholic because of my environment, although the fact that I have/had it as an option is definitely due, in part, to my environment.

If I was raised by a mullah in Syria I would hope that I came to realize the truth in Jesus' teachings on my own (without being taught or directly exposed to the teachings). Then, although I would not call myself a Catholic because I wouldn't know what one was (edit: err, nevermind. I was going down the route of the people who never even hear of Jesus. Of course a mullah probably has. You get the idea though. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif), I would still be living like one should.

[dknightx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
any sense of guilt or uncertainty of the future comes from the self.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno about this... who is likely to feel guilty about masturbating, a Catholic boy or a non-believer? Who is more likely to feel guilt over having premarital sex with her boyfriend, a Catholic girl or an athiest?

The Catholic church fosters guilt by proclaiming as "sins" things that are completely natural for human beings.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't speak for the catholic church, but my understanding of the christian faith is that God does not want us to feel GUILTY. The point is we don't ask for forgiveness because we feel guilty about doing something. we ask for forgiveness because we recognize that we need it.

"for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin." I know that speeding is against the law, which is how I know that when I speed, I am breaking the law. Now i can choose to stop because i feel GUILTY about being a law breaker, or I can stop because I respect the law and the authority that created the law. When I do happen to break the law, I ask for forgiveness not because I feel guilty about breaking the law, but because I recognize I did something wrong and I need forgiveness (this part may be hard to distinguish). Using this example usually pisses people off because it gives christianity this sense of a "green light" to do whatever you want and not feel guilty about it and then ask for forgiveness later ... but i wont go on a tangent

as for your specific examples, I agree, a "catholic" person is more likely to feel "guilt" over something because he has been taught that what he is doing is "wrong/sin". It is then the church's responsibility to teach their believers correctly. It is definitely unfortunate that the current church is all about "fostering guilt" (seems to get more believers), but thats not the way it should be.

[madnak]

If the Church has a negative impact, then that's a pretty strong indictment of the Catholic philosophy as a whole.

This Churhc is supposed to represent God on earth - apologetics for the murder, torture, guiltmongering, war, and other such crimes are meaningless. If God's ultimate, purest representatives on earth are murderers and torturers, then either God condones murder and torture or God has basically no relationship with those on earth at all.

[dknightx]

or that we have free will ... (but lets not go back to that again)

[FortunaMaximus]

Well, not voluntarily anyway.

Uh, I don't know. I tend to think the Church does do a lot of good. Not nearly enough, and certainly its penchant of taking an apologist stance after the fact is never going to reflect well on them, and as a sum total, they may very well have a negative influence right now.

[madnak]

Free will is irrelevant to the point. Either the Church represents God, or it doesn't. If it does, then God is responsible for its actions. If it doesn't, then neither it nor its interpretations should be supported - especially among Christians, because to put faith in such images of man would be idol worship.

Even if the Church did once represent God, it can't have continued to do so after it took actions antithetical to God's will. That would not only make it opposed to God (and a true representative of God could hardly be such), but it would also indicate that its representation is absolutely shoddy and wholly unreliable (at best).

Free will doesn't need to enter into it at all. You could argue that the Church fell from God and became diabolical as a result of free will, but that's not what I'm talking about. If the Church fell from God, then it's now a corrupt institution. If the Church didn't fall from God, then its actions represent God. Take your pick, this is basic syllogism.

[51cards]

[ QUOTE ]
you first

[/ QUOTE ]

When I read the OP I was sad because I wanted to be the first to respond. I was going to respond "you first". I'm pretty sure it's a sign that I'm not needed here. I guess it's time to go.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, not voluntarily anyway.

Uh, I don't know. I tend to think the Church does do a lot of good. Not nearly enough, and certainly its penchant of taking an apologist stance after the fact is never going to reflect well on them, and as a sum total, they may very well have a negative influence right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Negative influence right now? As opposed to when, the dark ages? The middle ages? The Renaissance? Yeah, I'm seeing a great track record...

[dknightx]

[ QUOTE ]
Free will is irrelevant to the point. Either the Church represents God, or it doesn't. If it does, then God is responsible for its actions. If it doesn't, then neither it nor its interpretations should be supported - especially among Christians, because to put faith in such images of man would be idol worship.

Even if the Church did once represent God, it can't have continued to do so after it took actions antithetical to God's will. That would not only make it opposed to God (and a true representative of God could hardly be such), but it would also indicate that its representation is absolutely shoddy and wholly unreliable (at best).

Free will doesn't need to enter into it at all. You could argue that the Church fell from God and became diabolical as a result of free will, but that's not what I'm talking about. If the Church fell from God, then it's now a corrupt institution. If the Church didn't fall from God, then its actions represent God. Take your pick, this is basic syllogism.

[/ QUOTE ]

I use the term "Church" loosely ... the CHURCH (as referenced in the bible) is not a single building that contains a group of believers that we see and hear about everyday. In truth, I'm sure a large percent of these "churches" do not accurately reflect the will of God.

Just as the Christians are to be a representative of God, they can either do a good job of that or a poor job of that.

[madnak]

Eh? I thought we were talking about Catholicism.

[dknightx]

i thought we were talking about christianity!

well, i can't speak for the catholic church, so i'll bow out of this one.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]

If I was raised by a mullah in Syria I would hope that I came to realize the truth in Jesus' teachings on my own (without being taught or directly exposed to the teachings). Then, although I would not call myself a Catholic because I wouldn't know what one was (edit: err, nevermind. I was going down the route of the people who never even hear of Jesus. Of course a mullah probably has. You get the idea though. ), I would still be living like one should.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to clarify... are you saying that if you were raised a Muslim in Syria, you think you would have found Jesus and converted to Christianity anyway? Or are you saying that Muslims who live good lives (following their own Islamic religion), are actually following Jesus' teachings without realizing it?

I do think that any Christian who thinks he would have become a Christian even if born and raised Muslim, in a Muslim country, is ignoring absolutely overwhelming statistical evidence to the contrary.

[LuckOfTheDraw]

I can only hope that when I die, I feel ready for it.

[51cards]

[ QUOTE ]
I can only hope that when I die, I... Oh nevermind I'll be dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I fixed it for you.

[NLSoldier]

WHat the OP said is something I have spend a lot of time thinking about but obviously that never really accomplishes anything.

Its definately been a big deterent in deciding whether to become an atheist. I also think this idea that life is completely meaningless for atheists is the biggest reason that there are still so many theists around. Its more about trying to give some meaning or point to this life than it is about worrying whats going to happen in the afterlife.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]

Its definately been a big deterent in deciding whether to become an atheist.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it is a decision, like choosing to buy a Honda versus a Toyota. You either believe or you don't. It doesn't really matter how much I'd like to be immortal, or see my family again after I die. Wishing something to be so is not enough of a reason to believe.

Let's say, just for argument's sake, that there is no god. Then, what is the meaning of all the Christians' lives? They have created the meaning themselves and given it a name (jesus, god, etc.). Same with the Muslims. Why can't an athiest also create meaning in his own life, without inventing a god to worship? Meaning comes from life having a purpose. For some it is worshiping a god. For others it is helping others, saving sick animals, providing for their children, etc. A life does not have to be endless for it to have meaning.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
A life does not have to be endless for it to have meaning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great statement, but I think that's the main problem with people. A lot of embittered and wounded souls suicide because they don't see meaning and for some, it's an effort to get to the head of the line.

And a lot of evil actions, not necessarily from evil people, are justified for an ambigious, non-provable afterlife.

Nothing stops a heart surgeon from reaching into his patient's chest and thinking, [censored] it, it doesn't mean a thing anyway, and walking away. Fixing the wounded and sick means something to him, regardless of his personal belief. Walk away from the table, he might be just a guy who likes crappy American domestic beer and doesn't believe in God, he's just got a talent he developed and has use in this society.

If you can ease suffering for others and make dreams come true, even if you don't believe in them on your own time, I don't think this is a discontinuity in an individual. If you come to terms with the fact you only have a finite span, and no way of knowing if you are wrong...

I don't see why you would go around trying to shatter people's beliefs in such, when you can just help them with whatever they need. Atheists do a lot of good, that's undeniable, and it's an admirable trait if they don't go around convincing people otherwise, but keep their beliefs to themselves and do the good moral stuff anyway.

[surftheiop]

"What is it about the year 2027 that provides for a meaningful 2006?"

Quite alot, heck if there is no tommorow i would have skipped school and went surfing today even though there are no waves.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
"What is it about the year 2027 that provides for a meaningful 2006?"

Quite alot, heck if there is no tommorow i would have skipped school and went surfing today even though there are no waves.

[/ QUOTE ]

There won't always be a tomorrow.

[Riina]

I don't know wether a god exists or not, i truly don't.

thats all

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know wether a god exists or not, i truly don't.

thats all

[/ QUOTE ]

As long as the doubt doesn't stop you from living your life more or less the way you want to live it...

[siegfriedandroy]

[ QUOTE ]
What if I told you that last night while you slept, you had a dream? And in this dream, you were incredibly happy and fulfilled, and that for 8 hours, you were completely satisfied. But, when you woke up, you immediately forgot the dream, and won’t ever remember it. Now, with that said, do you really care if the dream was good or bad? Long or short? It is of no consequence to you now that you’re awake. You simply don’t care.

Now for arguments sake, let’s say that when you die, you cease to exist, and you feel nothing forever. When you die, life would have been like that dream you had last night. The dream that means nothing to you right now, because you can’t remember it and it has no relevance. When you cease to exist, it doesn’t matter if your life was fulfilling or not. You’re not going to care if you were content or depressed. It’s no different than waking up from a dream you can’t remember having.

So then why do people who believe that this is their fate, live their lives like they do? Going to work 8 hours a day 5 days a week, never taking holidays, watching sitcoms on television, and wasting their time reading crap on internet forums, not unlike this. Logically speaking, it would make no difference if you killed yourself right now. You would just wake up a little earlier from your pathetic dream that you wont remember anyway. You’re living a lie. You’re fooling yourself into thinking that there is meaning, and that things matter. Don’t tell me that you’re happy now and that’s all that matters. You’re not happy. I’ve seen you complaining about your wretched life, trying to change yourself, and better yourself. You’re dreaming right now, and your dream is not even pleasant, it’s a nightmare. I mean, you might as well just end it.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree that an atheist killing himself (assuming an atheistic world view) is not ultimately any more or less rational than devoting his life to charity, etc, and no more or less rational than devoting himself to pursuing genocide (i.e. Hussein, etc) if he somehow believed that was in his best interest. But dont get me wrong- even if something is not in the atheist's 'best interest', and he devotes his life to this 'something', that is still no more or less rational. Each is free to pursue his new 'utilitarian' aims (as the enlightened poster in the other thread proclaimed conclusively how his utilitarian friends shattered my ideas), or if he wishes (for whatever sane or neurotic reason - however YOU perceive it) to pursue goals 100% antithetical to utilitarianism. None of the many aims makes any more (ultimate) sense than any other.

So, yes, OP, I agree. The atheist may well kill himself (or others)immediately, if he wishes. Or he may choose not to. How arrogant (and intolerant) to claim that those who choose to kill are 'evil'. Outside of the 'anti-killing' atheist's mind, killing is not evil. Evil has no real meaning.

Good post- you are already far ahead philosophically of most of the fish on here.

[siegfriedandroy]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know wether a god exists or not, i truly don't.

thats all

[/ QUOTE ]

"Honesty. Thank you." ('jerry mcguire')

[siegfriedandroy]

[ QUOTE ]
WHat the OP said is something I have spend a lot of time thinking about but obviously that never really accomplishes anything.

Its definately been a big deterent in deciding whether to become an atheist. I also think this idea that life is completely meaningless for atheists is the biggest reason that there are still so many theists around. Its more about trying to give some meaning or point to this life than it is about worrying whats going to happen in the afterlife.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, NL. I believe completely that meaning within atheism is completely self ascribed. Personally I believe life is valuable simply b/c a Creator, who we call 'God', chose to create it and sustain it, and ultimately to suffer for it (b/c of sin), that we might live.

Anyway, i understand that many here seem to be existentialist atheists. To me this means that despite the ultimate nothingness and meaningless, man can (and according to most here, do best to) create their own meaning, etc, simply b/c it helps them to feel 'satisfied' and 'fulfilled', which seems to be their primary goal.

Anyway, what are your thoughts, NL?

[siegfriedandroy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A life does not have to be endless for it to have meaning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great statement, but I think that's the main problem with people. A lot of embittered and wounded souls suicide because they don't see meaning and for some, it's an effort to get to the head of the line.

And a lot of evil actions, not necessarily from evil people, are justified for an ambigious, non-provable afterlife.

Nothing stops a heart surgeon from reaching into his patient's chest and thinking, [censored] it, it doesn't mean a thing anyway, and walking away. Fixing the wounded and sick means something to him, regardless of his personal belief. Walk away from the table, he might be just a guy who likes crappy American domestic beer and doesn't believe in God, he's just got a talent he developed and has use in this society.

If you can ease suffering for others and make dreams come true, even if you don't believe in them on your own time, I don't think this is a discontinuity in an individual. If you come to terms with the fact you only have a finite span, and no way of knowing if you are wrong...

I don't see why you would go around trying to shatter people's beliefs in such, when you can just help them with whatever they need. Atheists do a lot of good, that's undeniable, and it's an admirable trait if they don't go around convincing people otherwise, but keep their beliefs to themselves and do the good moral stuff anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]


I like crappy, domestic American beer, yet believe in God! I like crappy, imported beer more, though. Nah, no more lies...i like all beer, and i believe none of it is truly 'crappy'! 'Cept maybe Pabst blue ribbon!

[surftheiop]

But the probability there will be is enough for me to make the decision to provide myself with delayed enjoyment (ie if i get a nice job i can go surf in exotic places for 20 years of my life).

[Semtex]

This is an incredibly lame line of reasoning. According to your "logic," there shouldn't be a universe. There shouldn't be life. Because it makes no difference or however you think. But there is. For you to think you have a grasp on reality is incredibly naive and pompous. I mean you might be right, but the way things are none of us is ever going to know anything about the meaning, or lack thereof in your opinion, of life.

[MaxWeiss]

Comfort is all well and good, but it has nothing to do with THE TRUTH. I could tell you you won the lottery but that only your kids get it after you die and that might make you happy and provide something for you and change how you go about your life, but it has no relevance or bearing on what is real.

Atheism is not a choice. Many atheists WISH they did believe in god because they want a higher purpose. They just CAN'T believe because it's too ridiculous and obviously not true.

[Jasper109]

[ QUOTE ]
Comfort is all well and good, but it has nothing to do with THE TRUTH. I could tell you you won the lottery but that only your kids get it after you die and that might make you happy and provide something for you and change how you go about your life, but it has no relevance or bearing on what is real.

Atheism is not a choice. Many atheists WISH they did believe in god because they want a higher purpose. They just CAN'T believe because it's too ridiculous and obviously not true.

[/ QUOTE ]


QFT

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
But the probability there will be is enough for me to make the decision to provide myself with delayed enjoyment (ie if i get a nice job i can go surf in exotic places for 20 years of my life).

[/ QUOTE ]

And at what later date will this change? I assume it will change.

[SpicFaLife]

If my tone was harsh, it was only because I anticipated the responses about present happiness - “if I’m happy now, that’s all that matters.” Or what many people described as “maximizing happiness”, which really becomes the crux of this argument. The dream analogy remains sound. And although the only answer to the reality of an absent afterlife is to exploit this life for happiness, this does not mean that killing yourself is a worse alternative. It is neither better nor worse. In hindsight, it carries the exact same consequences. If there is no meaning, it is absurd to act like there is. Now, since many of you will continue to disagree that waking from the dream is worse than to continue dreaming, you have a dilemma, because this means that the only reason you have to not “wake” is to find happiness now, in this present moment, as most of you have said.

[ QUOTE ]
"What is it about the year 2027 that provides for a meaningful 2006?"

Quite alot, heck if there is no tommorow i would have skipped school and went surfing today even though there are no waves.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the only attitude that is not hypocritical of one who shares the view that waking from the dream is worse than to continue dreaming. The only meaning you have is to enjoy the present, but still, very few people act in this manner. You could wake at any moment, and even worse, your dream could become unpleasant. If it is unpleasant, your meaning is in jeopardy, and then it becomes better to wake. Or you could wake at any moment, so you must be sure you’re maximizing your happiness. That is why there is no room for morality in such a view. Because morality comes second to your own happiness, since there is no other meaning besides this. If you derive pleasure from people’s pain, then it is not wrong to do so. Whether this gives way to the “prisoner’s dilemma” is another argument altogether. But after all is said and done, the fact still remains that you will all just wake up from your dream at one point, and if you think the answer is to enjoy your life now, then you should act like it, because the truth is that the large majority of people are living the life that society has told them to live, where it is clearly not designed to maximize one’s own happiness. You accept the way things are, even though they are detrimental to the reality you believe in. You believe you should be living a certain way, but you fail to do so. That is the truth.

[Dominic]

[ QUOTE ]
It does not require bad priests or a certain environment to cause guilt, just a belief in a Christian God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying if I don't believe in A Christian God I can't feel guilt?? I'm an atheist, and if my parents had bought me a shiny new bike instead of providing medicine for my sister, I would've felt guilty and ashamed.

Guilt and shame have nothing to do with whether or not there is God...only the natural empathy most of us share.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It does not require bad priests or a certain environment to cause guilt, just a belief in a Christian God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying if I don't believe in A Christian God I can't feel guilt?? I'm an atheist, and if my parents had bought me a shiny new bike instead of providing medicine for my sister, I would've felt guilty and ashamed.

Guilt and shame have nothing to do with whether or not there is God...only the natural empathy most of us share.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he meant to say that the Christian god was sufficient, and not necessary. Actually, he literally wrote that it WAS necessary but I highly doubt he believes that.

[madnak]

Oy, nice try. I'm responding on the off chance that you aren't talking about God here.

A utilitarian can factor moral considerations into his evaluation of utility. Not all utilitarians are "happiness maximizing" utilitarians, and even among them many consider more than their own happiness to be relevant. That's very important, especially regarding suicide. Even assuming that suicide doesn't result in suffering (and atheists don't necessarily believe that), that suicide may cause plenty of suffering to others.

Another thing - maximizing happiness may not look like what you think it should look like. You'd be surprised.