What would it take for you to believe in Juedo-Christian God?

[surftheiop]

First off this is just a question of curiousity, im not trying to get you to say something and then be like "O this event "x" has already happened at time "x"

I just wanna know what you all think, so what would it take for you to believe the Christian God portrayed in the Bible exists?

[benjdm]

The existence of the Christian God would have to be the conclusion of a scientific theory. Or, someone would have to invent a 'theological method' that was equally testable and verifiable as the scientific method that led to a conclusion of the existence of the Christian God.

[surftheiop]

Like was sort of experimentation would you propose for this theory?
For example for me to "prove" surface tension to myself i float a paperclip on water. What you wanna try/observe in this case?
(Ie. If we tried X and X worked then i believe god exists"

[DougShrapnel]

I think a bona fide miracle would go a long way, but I'm not sure if even then it would be conclusive as to a Juedo-Xtian god, merely a powerful being and likely powerful beings. Once you find one of something I think it easier to make the case of more of it. Brainwashing would work as well.

[FortunaMaximus]

A harem or a failure of the Grand Unified Theory to account for a non-observer.

[CityFan]

A genuine miracle that I witnessed with my own eyes and could find no other explanation for, might make me at least believe in the supernatural. It'd still be a huge leap from that to the Christian God though.

Brainwashing might work, as others have said. If I really WANTED to believe, maybe I could get with this faith stuff too. But apart from that you'd basically have to rewire my brain.

[HajiShirazu]

It wouldn't take as much for me as others, even though I am a confident atheist. However the evidence would have to be somewhat concrete and it would have to be verifiable that only the JC god could be responsible for such evidence.
The scheme of Christianity is so elaborate and convincing that it takes the fact that there is no proof at all that the Judeo-Christian God ever existed, along with large amounts of proof that the claims made by the religion are patently false, for me to be an athiest.

[CityFan]

[ QUOTE ]
It wouldn't take as much for me as others, even though I am a confident atheist. However the evidence would have to be somewhat concrete and it would have to be verifiable that only the JC god could be responsible for such evidence.
The scheme of Christianity is so elaborate and convincing that it takes the fact that there is no proof at all that the Judeo-Christian God ever existed, along with large amounts of proof that the claims made by the religion are patently false, for me to be an athiest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Convincing is not a word I would have used.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
I just wanna know what you all think, so what would it take for you to believe the Christian God portrayed in the Bible exists?

[/ QUOTE ]

First I would want 23 christians from different sects and regions to write down in clear terms what attributes an entity would have that would make it identifiable to a non-believer. Traits that would separate It from Allah, or Thor or Zeus etc.

Then I'd wait.

If, and this would be in the miracle category, I received 23 descriptions that could fit one entity then I test the creature for them. If it passed, then I'd give it the Hume test .. and it'd fail. It would always be more likely that I was having a fever or over-snorting than that such an event actually transpired.
My most vivid, clear memories are from a fever-induced episode years ago, clearer than the ones about (insert clear event here).

luckyme

[madnak]

The easiest way to convince me would be through personal experience.

One examples would be a huge string of coincidences happens, pointing straight to God. It could be just a couple of events, as long as they're extremely unlikely to happen by chance. This would work especially well if it were a "mind-reading" type of situation. For example, if I have a thought and don't share it with anyone, but then an event happens that matches my thought perfectly. Or if I have a dream, and then the dream comes true.

Another would be actual communication. What would be mose effective in terms of that would be real, audible words with a sense of strength and goodness behind them, combined with a feeling of peace and stability. If such a thing were to happen in my mind, I would consider God a more likely source than insanity, and would act accordingly.

In terms of scientific evidence, well, that's hard by definition. I mean, there are ways that we might establish a theory that's consistent with the Bible. But the Bible is vague, is open to interpretation, and makes no falsifiable predictions.

Something "pseudoscientific" would work. Prophecy fulfillment would work if it were the real deal. Miracles might - but miracles alone would only indicate a higher power, and nothing about its nature, so I'd be suspicious. Certain kinds of miracles might either impact me at a personal level or make so much sense I'm willing to accept them at face value.

[IsaacW]

In order for me to believe in the Christian god, since he considers "saved" those who believe certain stories about Jesus, he would have to appear to every single person on earth and convince them of the truth of the history of Jesus. I would know that this happened because a) he would have appeared to me and convinced me and b) news would quickly get out that everyone in the world had converted to Christianity overnight.

An infinitely powerful and infinitely good god, concerned primarily with whether or not humans believe he exists, has no other choice but to send more and more radical proofs of his existence until every single human is converted. Since this has not happened, I am convinced that the Christian god does not in fact exist.

[John21]

[ QUOTE ]
I just wanna know what you all think, so what would it take for you to believe the Christian God portrayed in the Bible exists?


[/ QUOTE ]

Republicans holding on to both houses.

[MidGe]

What would it take for you to believe in Judeo-Christian God?

A psychotic episode, I guess!

[51cards]

How would I ever be able to distinguish between an all powerful being who wants me to believe he's Jehova and one who actually is?

Also, any miraculous event is still finite and postulating an infinite solution is just plain illogical.

In particular if Jesus himself came to me and healed me and even gave me power over demons and to cure illness myself (like every Christian has right now, btw) how could I tell it wasn't a magic guy or a 6th demensional dude on vacation in 3d land for an era. Get it?

[evil twin]

Evidence.

[benjdm]

[ QUOTE ]
Like was sort of experimentation would you propose for this theory?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, that's kind of a tough one because most of the ways you could test for biblegod have already falsified biblegod. The earth was not formed in six days, the world is not flat, we are not under a firmament holding back water, no worldwide flood happened, a small amount of faith cannot move a mountain, Moses' cure for leprosy does not work, God cannot remember the ten commandments from one incarnation to the next, etc. I don't see anything that leads me to propose a god hypotheses.

[ QUOTE ]
For example for me to "prove" surface tension to myself i float a paperclip on water. What you wanna try/observe in this case?

[/ QUOTE ]
I've tried praying multiple times for biblegod to tell me 3 specific digits of pi. He hasn't gotten any of them right yet.

[ QUOTE ]
(Ie. If we tried X and X worked then i believe god exists"

[/ QUOTE ]
Buzzzzz. That's not how it works. It has to be 'If I am correct about X conception of god, then test Y will yield result Z. If Z does not occur, then X conception of god is falsified and is incorrect.' One paperclip floating on water does not prove surface tension. One paperclip floating on water is one result of one test that could show the idea of surface tension being incorrect. Put together a whole bunch of correct results and you start to have confidence that your idea of surface tension is correct.

[Bill Haywood]

A tour of heaven.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
First off this is just a question of curiousity, im not trying to get you to say something and then be like "O this event "x" has already happened at time "x"

I just wanna know what you all think, so what would it take for you to believe the Christian God portrayed in the Bible exists?

[/ QUOTE ]

He would know, and if it was important to Him, He would show me.

[Duke]

It'd be a lot like the "show me" scene in Christine.

[KingOtter]

That horrible movie based upon the Stephen King novel?

shudder.

[TimWillTell]

[ QUOTE ]
What would it take for you to believe in Judeo-Christian God?

A psychotic episode, I guess!

[/ QUOTE ]

U nailed it!

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
That horrible movie based upon the Stephen King novel?

shudder.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are gonna have to be more specific.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That horrible movie based upon the Stephen King novel?

shudder.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are gonna have to be more specific.

[/ QUOTE ]


Heh... the post I responded to mentioned 'Christine'.

[Analyst]

[ QUOTE ]

He would know, and if it was important to Him, He would show me.

[/ QUOTE ]

*Ding*

This is exactly the right answer. God knows exactly what it would take to convince any (and every) given person, and (assuming the Christian God) for some reason chooses to condem people to hell rather than provide them with the appropriate evidence.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That horrible movie based upon the Stephen King novel?

shudder.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are gonna have to be more specific.

[/ QUOTE ]


Heh... the post I responded to mentioned 'Christine'.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I know. Good to see I'm not any funnier here than in any of the other forums.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

He would know, and if it was important to Him, He would show me.

[/ QUOTE ]

*Ding*

This is exactly the right answer. God knows exactly what it would take to convince any (and every) given person, and (assuming the Christian God) for some reason chooses to condem people to hell rather than provide them with the appropriate evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, why wouldn't the Judeochristian God set the parameters and allow people to come to their own conclusions, and merely present a moral standard (Commandments) that are sins that cannot be violated?

The very doubt of his existence would seem to imply it isn't his job to make the judgments for individuals, that they should come to their own conclusions, and if they err on the wrong end of a moral compass, to damn them.

I don't know, someone that can turn a wife into a pillar of salt certainly is perverse and funny.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That horrible movie based upon the Stephen King novel?

shudder.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are gonna have to be more specific.

[/ QUOTE ]


Heh... the post I responded to mentioned 'Christine'.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I know. Good to see I'm not any funnier here than in any of the other forums.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh I got it... hence the 'heh'... it wasn't a slap-my-thigh that's so funny statement, but it did qualify for a 'heh' ... I just clarified for those not sophisticated enough to get it.

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That horrible movie based upon the Stephen King novel?

shudder.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are gonna have to be more specific.

[/ QUOTE ]


Heh... the post I responded to mentioned 'Christine'.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I know. Good to see I'm not any funnier here than in any of the other forums.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that's the movie. In the scene I'm talking about, the main character (who was also a cast member in the amazing Jaws 2) stands in front of the car and says "Show me." The car proceeds to completely repair itself in front of him.

That, and not the quality (or lack thereof) of the film was the driving force behind my post.

[siegfriedandroy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

He would know, and if it was important to Him, He would show me.

[/ QUOTE ]

*Ding*

This is exactly the right answer. God knows exactly what it would take to convince any (and every) given person, and (assuming the Christian God) for some reason chooses to condem people to hell rather than provide them with the appropriate evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

so it is impossible for God to provide 'appropriate evidence' yet still allow choice?

[siegfriedandroy]

[ QUOTE ]
Evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

what kind and how much?

[siegfriedandroy]

[ QUOTE ]
How would I ever be able to distinguish between an all powerful being who wants me to believe he's Jehova and one who actually is?

Also, any miraculous event is still finite and postulating an infinite solution is just plain illogical.

In particular if Jesus himself came to me and healed me and even gave me power over demons and to cure illness myself (like every Christian has right now, btw) how could I tell it wasn't a magic guy or a 6th demensional dude on vacation in 3d land for an era. Get it?

[/ QUOTE ]

i used to think like this. guess in that scenario you'd have to make the best decision you could with the information and experience you have had.

btw why do you say every christian has been given the power to heal and cast out demons? what is the context of where you got this from?

[She]

[ QUOTE ]
Evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would need to be more convinced (reasonably, logically and personally) that a Judeo-Christian god exits, than that he does not. Tell me why he would. Back up your claims with facts. Discredit any counter evidence. Make it personal.

And yes, I think it does need to be personal. A person will often interpret facts according to their own preconceived ideas. So you would need to give a reasonable and factual basis, as well as a desire to believe in the Judeo-Christian god before someone will consent to such.

[She]

[ QUOTE ]
btw why do you say every christian has been given the power to heal and cast out demons? what is the context of where you got this from?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am guessing that this is from Mark 16:17-18.
[ QUOTE ]

"And these signs shall follow those who believe; In my name they shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall pick up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

[/ QUOTE ]

[Piers]

[ QUOTE ]
I just wanna know what you all think, so what would it take for you to believe the Christian God portrayed in the Bible exists?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not sure. Intrusive brain surgery could probably have the desired effect, but I am not sure I would still be me.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just wanna know what you all think, so what would it take for you to believe the Christian God portrayed in the Bible exists?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not sure. Intrusive brain surgery could probably have the desired effect, but I am not sure I would still be me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brings up a question that, to me anyhow, is FAR more interesting than the OP. How much could I alter you (permanently, temporarily, you choose) before you wouldn't be able to consider yourself you? I mean, the you who started reading this post isn't the same one reading right now...if I made you blind, are you still you? What if (indulge me) I made you stop liking chocolate, or I made you more violent with less impulse control?

[51cards]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
btw why do you say every christian has been given the power to heal and cast out demons? what is the context of where you got this from?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am guessing that this is from Mark 16:17-18.
[ QUOTE ]

"And these signs shall follow those who believe; In my name they shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall pick up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks She. It's good to have people looking after me and filling in cites.

Also, does any believer care to comment on another unfulfilled promise?

Honestly I can't remember what wiggling goes on with this one, so I'll be mildly entertained.

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just wanna know what you all think, so what would it take for you to believe the Christian God portrayed in the Bible exists?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not sure. Intrusive brain surgery could probably have the desired effect, but I am not sure I would still be me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brings up a question that, to me anyhow, is FAR more interesting than the OP. How much could I alter you (permanently, temporarily, you choose) before you wouldn't be able to consider yourself you? I mean, the you who started reading this post isn't the same one reading right now...if I made you blind, are you still you? What if (indulge me) I made you stop liking chocolate, or I made you more violent with less impulse control?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know if I'd still be me, but I wouldn't make those changes if I were you.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just wanna know what you all think, so what would it take for you to believe the Christian God portrayed in the Bible exists?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not sure. Intrusive brain surgery could probably have the desired effect, but I am not sure I would still be me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brings up a question that, to me anyhow, is FAR more interesting than the OP. How much could I alter you (permanently, temporarily, you choose) before you wouldn't be able to consider yourself you? I mean, the you who started reading this post isn't the same one reading right now...if I made you blind, are you still you? What if (indulge me) I made you stop liking chocolate, or I made you more violent with less impulse control?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know if I'd still be me, but I wouldn't make those changes if I were you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd go one some sort of Baskin Robbins killing spree?

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just wanna know what you all think, so what would it take for you to believe the Christian God portrayed in the Bible exists?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not sure. Intrusive brain surgery could probably have the desired effect, but I am not sure I would still be me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brings up a question that, to me anyhow, is FAR more interesting than the OP. How much could I alter you (permanently, temporarily, you choose) before you wouldn't be able to consider yourself you? I mean, the you who started reading this post isn't the same one reading right now...if I made you blind, are you still you? What if (indulge me) I made you stop liking chocolate, or I made you more violent with less impulse control?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know if I'd still be me, but I wouldn't make those changes if I were you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd go one some sort of Baskin Robbins killing spree?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mind you, the example of Dr. Henry Frankenstein. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[TomBrooks]

It would take someone explaining the correct meaning of the Bible. That has been done now by Joseph Campbell and Tolle Eckhart.

[AthenianStranger]

[ QUOTE ]
"Luke 16:19-31 "Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day. A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom. He cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.’

"But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in like manner, bad things. But now here he is comforted and you are in anguish. Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’

He said, ‘I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house; for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, so they won’t also come into this place of torment.’

"But Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’

"He said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’

"He said to him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.’"

[/ QUOTE ]

[Silent A]

But what happens to an atheist who gives aid to the poor and suffering?

Editted to add:

I'd further add that the idea that "Moses and the prophets" is as convincing as seeing a person rise from the dead and testify to what happens in the great beyond is laughable in the extreme.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
"Luke 16:19-31 "Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day. A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom. He cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.’

"But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in like manner, bad things. But now here he is comforted and you are in anguish. Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’

He said, ‘I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house; for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, so they won’t also come into this place of torment.’

"But Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’

"He said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’

"He said to him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.’"

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the most ludicrously cruel and false passages in the Bible. I'm glad you quoted it. Heh, at least you have the balls to present your religion as it is.

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
What would it take for you to believe in Juedo-Christian God?

[/ QUOTE ]
For the judo god I'd need Michael J. Anderson to kick Tyson's ass. For that other stuff, I'd need something bigger.

[brashbrother]

[ QUOTE ]
But what happens to an atheist who gives aid to the poor and suffering?

Editted to add:

I'd further add that the idea that "Moses and the prophets" is as convincing as seeing a person rise from the dead and testify to what happens in the great beyond is laughable in the extreme.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is this so laughable? Even our own Bible tells us that Christ raised people from the dead, healed those who had been sick/blind/lame from birth, and performed miracles on several occasions during His ministry. And still, he was mocked and crucified for the "crime" of blasphemy.

So why the miracles in the first place? They did show to those who already followed him that He was from God. And they may have raised awareness and further verified His Teachings, but by no means was He trying to "prove" his supernatural status to the masses. To have done that would be to create a group of people who initially follow him for his "star" power, then as humans tend to do, who would begin to doubt as time passed (i.e. they would ask for another miracle periodically). Convincing new members would require a demonstration each time of a miracle, which would again, create a follower who was only convinced of the fact that this guy was supernatural, and not much else.

Let's say the perfect miracle appears before you today, and you decide to believe. What type of faith would you have? Based on fear that you better shape up and figure out all this God stuff or you will go to Hell? Unfortunately, this won't be enough. Even Satan believes in God...yet he is in Hell.

I could go on, but the basic point is this: you have to realize you need forgiveness for the belief in God to mean anything. One without the other is meaningless.

[surftheiop]

Personally ive seen all of these except for the drinking poison and casting demons. People who i trust and who have no reason to lie to me have told me about seeing demons cast out (ie. multiple people give same account of one specific event).

But it can all be accounted for with chance/odd occurances/funky light angels/ brainwashing/ faking, so it means nothing for me to tell you about it.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say the perfect miracle appears before you today, and you decide to believe. What type of faith would you have? Based on fear that you better shape up and figure out all this God stuff or you will go to Hell?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, based on the miracle.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
I could go on, but the basic point is this: you have to realize you need forgiveness for the belief in God to mean anything. One without the other is meaningless.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you're telling us that if we don't realize that we need forgiveness from god, we shouldn't bother thinking about whether god exists. got it.

[brashbrother]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's say the perfect miracle appears before you today, and you decide to believe. What type of faith would you have? Based on fear that you better shape up and figure out all this God stuff or you will go to Hell?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, based on the miracle.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, let's say your faith is based on the miracle. What next? Do everything God says? or not? why?

If you do think that would make you do all that he says, he clearly states we should go into the world and preach the good news about Him. How would you do that? "Hey I saw this miracle, it is proof of God..." Sound familiar?

If you don't think you would do all he says, you cannot truly contend that your belief has changed because of the single observed miracle.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's say the perfect miracle appears before you today, and you decide to believe. What type of faith would you have? Based on fear that you better shape up and figure out all this God stuff or you will go to Hell?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, based on the miracle.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, let's say your faith is based on the miracle. What next? Do everything God says? or not? why?

[/ QUOTE ]

i would do everything he says because i would be scared [censored] -less of him.

[ QUOTE ]
If you do think that would make you do all that he says, he clearly states we should go into the world and preach the good news about Him.

[/ QUOTE ]

if i saw a miracle that conviced me that god exists that would not immediately convince me that i should treat everything written in the bible if god had written it. i don't know how you wrote that without expecting me to point out that you're jumping to a conclusion.

secondly, even if i did believe that the bible is "god's word," it would not mean that i would immediately assume that the great commission was addressed to me personally and not simply to the people who were with jesus when he said it and/or to his "church" in general. if it is addressed to the church in general it does not require every member to "preach" except perhaps in the sense of setting an example that sets you apart from the world.

[ QUOTE ]
How would you do that? "Hey I saw this miracle, it is proof of God..." Sound familiar?

[/ QUOTE ]

the miracle is only proof of god if it's real. i can't reasonably expect people who don't believe in miracles to accept my testimony.

people are saying that witnessing a miracle would convince them that god is real, and it seems like you're trying to say "no, it wouldn't, because people talking about miracles that happened to them doesn't convince anyone."

[Sephus]

also while i'm at it

[ QUOTE ]
Convincing new members would require a demonstration each time of a miracle

[/ QUOTE ]

so what? are you trying to say it's somehow wrong to require a miracle because it's not practical for god to perform a miracle for everyone?

[ QUOTE ]
which would again, create a follower who was only convinced of the fact that this guy was supernatural, and not much else.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, it would create a follower who was at least convinced that this guy was supernatural, and whatever else they believed about him would depend on all their other experiences.

[Sephus]

can i just boil down that entire post to:

-you would not believe in god because miracles don't convince people. as evidence, some of the people who supported jesus' crucifixion had witnessed miracles. therefore, a miracle would not convince you.

-sidenote: miracles that jesus performed were not to convince people, because if they had been intended to convince people those people would never believe anything about him except that he is supernatural. they would never be able to form other impressions of him.

conclusion: you shouldn't even be talking about believing in god because satan believes in god and it didn't save him.

did i get it right? help me out.

[Sephus]

also, as a sidenote, i know that it's possible that i'm just being dumb and your posts really make perfect sense. it's also possible that your posts would make sense to me except that my sinful heart prevents me from understanding.

with that said, i also know that christians posting here are doing so partly for personal enjoyment but mainly because they want people to believe.

your posts in this thread seem so aimlessly rambling and illogical to me that you are actually pushing me away from believing.

now, maybe you think it's not possible for you to have a negative affect on my chances of believing because i would believe easily if i surrendered my pride and realized that i'm sinful. but if that's true i think you should question how you can have a positive effect.

you want to convince people that they "need god" but be careful that you don't convince them that they don't by making stream-of-consciousness posts that go everywhere but where you're trying to go.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
also, as a sidenote, i know that it's possible that i'm just being dumb and your posts really make perfect sense. it's also possible that your posts would make sense to me except that my sinful heart prevents me from understanding.

with that said, i also know that christians posting here are doing so partly for personal enjoyment but mainly because they want people to believe.

your posts in this thread seem so aimlessly rambling and illogical to me that you are actually pushing me away from believing.

now, maybe you think it's not possible for you to have a negative affect on my chances of believing because i would believe easily if i surrendered my pride and realized that i'm sinful. but if that's true i think you should question how you can have a positive effect.

you want to convince people that they "need god" but be careful that you don't convince them that they don't by making stream-of-consciousness posts that go everywhere but where you're trying to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, this just reminded me of the best way to ruin the day of someone who si proselytizing. Just tell them you honestly want to hear what they are saying but they are so inept and unsympathetic that they have pushed you further from God. Only they would care!

[FortunaMaximus]

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i would do everything he says because i would be scared [censored] -less of him.

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You just summed up why dictatorships work. When you have no idea what the wizard's capable of and how he can turn your life upside down with an ineffectual wave of his hand.

[madnak]

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Let's say the perfect miracle appears before you today, and you decide to believe. What type of faith would you have? Based on fear that you better shape up and figure out all this God stuff or you will go to Hell?

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no, based on the miracle.

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OK, let's say your faith is based on the miracle. What next? Do everything God says? or not? why?

If you do think that would make you do all that he says, he clearly states we should go into the world and preach the good news about Him. How would you do that? "Hey I saw this miracle, it is proof of God..." Sound familiar?

If you don't think you would do all he says, you cannot truly contend that your belief has changed because of the single observed miracle.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think many, if not most, of us would begin heavy study of the Bible, start praying and meditating on the subject, travel to various Christians of various sects to discuss the subject and to observe their rituals, and further explore the matter. In such a case, finding God would be a process, not a light-switch transformation.

[brashbrother]

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can i just boil down that entire post to:

-you would not believe in god because miracles don't convince people. as evidence, some of the people who supported jesus' crucifixion had witnessed miracles. therefore, a miracle would not convince you.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry for the confusion. What I was saying was really two separate thoughts, I guess I did not explain them very well.
1. Miracles are not intended to "convert the masses." If this were effective, I would guess God would make use of them that way. Jesus actually told his followers often not to speak of the miracles he performed, so he never intended them to be used for mass conversion. Why? I suspect it is because of the reasons mentioned in the previous posts, regarding human nature to begin to doubt. And so, if someone needed a new miracle every few months or years to renew their faith, and in order to convince their cousin and his roommate, etc. Then soon the miracles lose their significance, and begin to look ordinary. Someone would challenge for a greater miracle, saying he thinks it's a trick. Or go to the other extreme, so that each miracle showed such perfect proof of God that no man could question His authority. At that point, you do not have a choice but to follow God, and Free Will is removed. This was not God's plan for humans.

2. My other point was to explain why the miracles occurred; which was to say that Followers who witnessed these miracles likely used them for inspiration and possibly to give them additional conviction. Several times, Christ used a miracle to encourage the sick person who believed he would be healed BEFORE the miracle occurred. People who asked for a miracle from a skeptic's point of view were not usually rewarded with one.

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-sidenote: miracles that jesus performed were not to convince people, because if they had been intended to convince people those people would never believe anything about him except that he is supernatural. they would never be able to form other impressions of him.

[/ QUOTE ] Not really saying that it would be impossible for people to form other impressions; it just wouldn't be for the right motives. To come to Jesus and believe because of the miracle in front of you would be logical and correct; an easy choice. It would suddenly become the "logical" choice, but would not require you to sacrifice your pride and be humble. Rather, you would be vindicated in doubting until the proof fit "your" requirements, and likely feel superior; you might even be angry, and wonder why God did not do the same for your family members who are now dead before they could see this miracle and believe for themselves. God wants people to recognize their own fallacies and failures and see that they need "something" that cannot be attained by their own intelligence or power or abilities.

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conclusion: you shouldn't even be talking about believing in god because satan believes in god and it didn't save him.

did i get it right? help me out.

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I am just saying it is not the end of the road to find out for sure that there is a God. There is no guarantee that logical proof or miraculous proof or whatever kind of proof sitting in front of all non-believers will lead them to FOLLOW God. Satan and his demons are the proof of this. Even with irrefutable proof of God, they choose to follow their own way.

[vhawk01]

Someone must have forgotton to tell Satan that God is by definition the ultimate good and ultimately just.

[CORed]

Well, if he appeared to me in a burning bush and handed me some stone tablets, it would help. Then again, I might just think all the drugs I did in my youth finally caught up with me.

[FortunaMaximus]

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Well, if he appeared to me in a burning bush and handed me some stone tablets, it would help. Then again, I might just think all the drugs I did in my youth finally caught up with me.

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Depends on if you tried to swallow the stone tablets.

I'm still waiting for the harem.

[bocablkr]

This is no different than 'what would it take for you to believe in UFO's'. Simple - have one land in front of me.

[gull]

If my prayers worked.

[brashbrother]

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If my prayers worked.

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So your prayers to a God you don't believe in should somehow convince that God to answer in the affirmative?

[brashbrother]

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This is no different than 'what would it take for you to believe in UFO's'. Simple - have one land in front of me.

[/ QUOTE ]

So that's all? Just land there, and then take off again? You would suddenly be a firm believer? You might not think you were hallucinating, ate some bad tacos? Or a military experiment went off course? Or just dreaming? Next day, you would tell anyone who would listen that UFOs are absolutely, completely 100% real, and anyone who doesn't believe you is mistaken, and sadly uninformed of the truth, because, hey, I SAW it myself...

That's exactly where Christians would find themselves, if all that had convinced us of God's existence was a supernatural phenomenon.

Thankfully, there's more to it than that, but I always find it odd when a non-believer asks for a supernatural "sign" to represent the ONLY thing standing between him and belief in God.

[Prodigy54321]

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This is no different than 'what would it take for you to believe in UFO's'. Simple - have one land in front of me.

[/ QUOTE ]

So that's all? Just land there, and then take off again? You would suddenly be a firm believer? You might not think you were hallucinating, ate some bad tacos? Or a military experiment went off course? Or just dreaming? Next day, you would tell anyone who would listen that UFOs are absolutely, completely 100% real, and anyone who doesn't believe you is mistaken, and sadly uninformed of the truth, because, hey, I SAW it myself...

That's exactly where Christians would find themselves, if all that had convinced us of God's existence was a supernatural phenomenon.

[/ QUOTE ]

speaking on this partcular subject alone, I'm surprised to hear you say such a reasonable thing...well done

it amazes me how much weight people put into their own experiences...

considering that other people have experiences that are contradictory to theirs, they must know full well that people are succeptable to being mistaken about these experiences...yet they refuse to accept that they could be one of these people

[brashbrother]

[ QUOTE ]
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This is no different than 'what would it take for you to believe in UFO's'. Simple - have one land in front of me.

[/ QUOTE ]

So that's all? Just land there, and then take off again? You would suddenly be a firm believer? You might not think you were hallucinating, ate some bad tacos? Or a military experiment went off course? Or just dreaming? Next day, you would tell anyone who would listen that UFOs are absolutely, completely 100% real, and anyone who doesn't believe you is mistaken, and sadly uninformed of the truth, because, hey, I SAW it myself...

That's exactly where Christians would find themselves, if all that had convinced us of God's existence was a supernatural phenomenon.

[/ QUOTE ]

speaking on this partcular subject alone, I'm surprised to hear you say such a reasonable thing...well done

it amazes me how much weight people put into their own experiences...

considering that other people have experiences that are contradictory to theirs, they must know full well that people are succeptable to being mistaken about these experiences...yet they refuse to accept that they could be one of these people

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I have discovered that trying to explain God to someone based on my own unique experience was not just difficult, it was kinda presumptious.

God changes people's minds. Not me. Best thing I can do is have you examine yourself and consider God "might" be in there somewheres.

[luckyme]

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Thanks. I have discovered that trying to explain God to someone based on my own unique experience was not just difficult, it was kinda presumptious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heck, it would seems presumptuous to explain it to myself on the based on a personal unique experience :-) That is likely one of the common gaps between theists and skeptics.

luckyme