A little concerning, but I agree with txag!

[Lestat]

There is something I find illogical about the way some atheists think. Mainly their contention that even if the Christian God were proven to be true, they still would reject Him and his religion. This is usually followed by an explanation of why they would rather burn in hell than to worship such an unworthy god. But is this logical?

I mean, txag is correct when he says, "Why should an all-powerful God be constrained to operate under Man's view of logic?". And I agree with this.

If the God of the bible were somehow proven true to me, I for one, would start praying to Him. Yes, partly out of fear, but also because there would be a demand to change my world view!

If I didn't like (or agree), with some of the things God did, I would be forced to reconsider if maybe my own view of what's right and wrong were either warped or insignificant in the overall scheme of things. A god who is outside of time and the physical universe would surely have a better overall perspective on things than I.

I think you guys who say that you'd rather burn in hell, do so because of how sure you are that there really isn't a Christian God. But if He were proven to be real, I say you're being just as illogical as any theist. Maybe even more so to reject Him out of hand.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Mainly their contention that even if the Christian God were proven to be true, they still would reject Him and his religion. This is usually followed by an explanation of why they would rather burn in hell than to worship such an unworthy god. But is this logical?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure that is the belief of the majority of atheists. That is illogical.

[ QUOTE ]
I mean, txag is correct when he says, "Why should an all-powerful God be constrained to operate under Man's view of logic?". And I agree with this.


[/ QUOTE ]
That may be true, but its no reason to ASSUME God would be illogical. Or that 'man's logic' isn't simply 'logic.'

Another point to consider-- even if there was a God, it may be safe to assume that Txag and all the theists were wrong about a significant part about God... ie, God may be logical, but the Bible isn't.

I can picture if there was a God he would laugh at the literalists... "You think I would write such an unclear message? Didn't you notice that the translations vary? You honestly think a book that was based on an oral tradition then copied mistakes an all thousands of times is going to be accurate? Didn't you play the telephone game when you were a kid? Oooh, my naive children. I gave you a brain, use it!"

[DougShrapnel]

The words give me liberty our give me death seem to movitate. Perhaps it is also to punish god. Maybe, it is because the xtian god doesn't instill trust.

[ QUOTE ]
"Why should an all-powerful God be constrained to operate under Man's view of logic?"

[/ QUOTE ] Might equal right?

[ QUOTE ]
I would be forced to reconsider if maybe my own view of what's right and wrong were either warped or insignificant in the overall scheme of things. A god who is outside of time and the physical universe would surely have a better overall perspective on things than I.

[/ QUOTE ] This is of course true, but I don't believe that we need to extend this to the xtian god necessarily.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you guys who say that you'd rather burn in hell, do so because of how sure you are that there really isn't a Christian God. But if He were proven to be real, I say you're being just as illogical as any theist. Maybe even more so to reject Him out of hand.

[/ QUOTE ] Reevalution needed on the off chance that the xtain God shows himself. He has a lot of explaining to do.

[Prodigy54321]

I would worship him as well...

but we need to talk about a specific definition of god..

I don't believe that absolute morality is a logical option...similar to drawing a square circle (unless you believe that god could do this..I, for one, don't)

If it turns out that I am wrong, then I will also be perfectly fine with realizing that I must be, by definition, mistaken on my disagreements with this god's opinion of morality.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you guys who say that you'd rather burn in hell, do so because of how sure you are that there really isn't a Christian God. But if He were proven to be real, I say you're being just as illogical as any theist. Maybe even more so to reject Him out of hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

why reject something that is true???I certainly wouldn't..regardless of whether or not there is hell involved..I'd be the first in line to worship(this is of course assuming that we can determine that this god is indeed true)

[ QUOTE ]
"Why should an all-powerful God be constrained to operate under Man's view of logic?".

[/ QUOTE ]

meh, quick poll

for anyone thinking to themselves, "no, he can't make a square circle...but making a square circle isn't the same thing as "operating outside man's logic"...

why can't god operate outside this other thing that makes a square circle impossible?

I can't see how this "other thing" would be any more "definite" than logic

[valenzuela]

pff...if the christian God is proved true.
I start going to church every sunday, and I do whatever God wants me to do so I can get my ass on heaven.

Analogy: If 5 criminal come with a gun and tell you " give me your money" are you going to "reject" them because you disagree with their morality?

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
If I didn't like (or agree), with some of the things God did, I would be forced to reconsider if maybe my own view of what's right and wrong were either warped or insignificant in the overall scheme of things. A god who is outside of time and the physical universe would surely have a better overall perspective on things than I.

I think you guys who say that you'd rather burn in hell, do so because of how sure you are that there really isn't a Christian God. But if He were proven to be real, I say you're being just as illogical as any theist. Maybe even more so to reject Him out of hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

One problem is that there isn't such a entity as "THE" xtrian god and it's near impossible to get a xtrian to lay out what attributes they are claiming for their particular personalized ( even within a local sect) brand.

The 'it ain't gonna happen' view may well play some part in it but I think some really would have a problem. Let's say 'IT' was the monster depicted in the bible read as a history book, I don't see how one could come to Worship 'It'. Cower in fear, suck up, whatever , but 'worship' ..hmmmm.. hard to figure how that could happen.
Maybe it's an Orwellian 1984 experience where you keep repeating something until it sounds true, but thinking it thru it is unimaginable that one could 'turn on' worship easily, if at all.

luckyme

[dknightx]

prodigy, i dont think the "logic" of a square-circle is the same type of "logic" lestat is discussing here.

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
prodigy, i dont think the "logic" of a square-circle is the same type of "logic" lestat is discussing here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know..did you read the part before the poll?

[chezlaw]

I agree to some extent but it doesn't matter. If god exists but our sense of justice is misleading then it doesn't matter what we do or believe. If it isn't misleading then we won't go far wrong by being guided by our sense of justice.

If we operate under the assumption that god exists then we have the best possible evidence that many religons worship a non-benevolent god and that these religons should be rejected. Faced with new evidence we would re-evaluate.

chez

[CityFan]

Mmmm.. if the Christian God was proved to exist, I would be mightily pissed off. I would certainly not think that it was a "good" situation.

I would be forced to reevaluate pretty much everything I've ever understood about the world. Morality and such concepts would no longer be relevatn - there would only be God's will.

But so what? That only proves that Christians have no place arguing about what is "good" anyway, since their own philosophy makes the concept meaningless.

[dknightx]

This may be a bad analogy, but i'll throw it out there anyways:

Scientists have discovered a strange phenomenon in Texas Hold 'em ... which is that if you get dealt 9d4s, you will win the hand no matter what. Even though this is completely illogical, all the evidence points to this, even when dealing using a completely fair deck (you try this out yourself, and see that it is indeed true).

Knowing this, would you continue to play poker? If yes, would you play 9d4s for maximum value or fold preflop?

[CityFan]

I don't know if this is intended as a reply to me or not.

I'd probably keep playing, and bet that 9d4s to the hilt.

But I don't see the point, because there is not one iota of evidence to suggest that God does, in fact, exist.

[CaseS87]

If God was proven to exist, some way or another, it would be incredibly stupid to question its logic. Our knowledge is very limited compared to an omnipotent and omniscient being.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
If God was proven to exist, some way or another, it would be incredibly stupid to question its logic. Our knowledge is very limited compared to an omnipotent and omniscient being.

[/ QUOTE ]
nonsense, if god exists then it is would be incredibly stupid to ignore the reasoning ability he gave us, and even stupider to ignore our god given sense of justice.

chez

[dknightx]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if this is intended as a reply to me or not.

I'd probably keep playing, and bet that 9d4s to the hilt.

But I don't see the point, because there is not one iota of evidence to suggest that God does, in fact, exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

im not saying that there IS evidence, the question was if there WAS evidence would you reject Him just because you don't think he is "logical"?

[dknightx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If God was proven to exist, some way or another, it would be incredibly stupid to question its logic. Our knowledge is very limited compared to an omnipotent and omniscient being.

[/ QUOTE ]
nonsense, if god exists then it is would be incredibly stupid to ignore the reasoning ability he gave us, and even stupider to ignore our god given sense of justice.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

how much of your reasoning ability and sense of justice is determined by your nature and surroundings? (just curious)

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If God was proven to exist, some way or another, it would be incredibly stupid to question its logic. Our knowledge is very limited compared to an omnipotent and omniscient being.

[/ QUOTE ]
nonsense, if god exists then it is would be incredibly stupid to ignore the reasoning ability he gave us, and even stupider to ignore our god given sense of justice.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

how much of your reasoning ability and sense of justice is determined by your nature and surroundings? (just curious)

[/ QUOTE ]
All of it but if god exists then out nature (and surroundings) are god given.

chez

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
If God was proven to exist, some way or another, it would be incredibly stupid to question its logic. Our knowledge is very limited compared to an omnipotent and omniscient being.

[/ QUOTE ]

How would we know that "it would be incredibly stupid" is correct? Our knowledge may be limited but it's all we have. Seems circular to have our stupid mind decide it's a poor idea, why trust that thinking by our dumbassselves?

luckyme

[CityFan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if this is intended as a reply to me or not.

I'd probably keep playing, and bet that 9d4s to the hilt.

But I don't see the point, because there is not one iota of evidence to suggest that God does, in fact, exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

im not saying that there IS evidence, the question was if there WAS evidence would you reject Him just because you don't think he is "logical"?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

I don't know what you mean by Him not being logical either. I don't think anyone has claimed that God is a logical impossibility.

If you mean that His will is inconsistent with what we understand as morality; fine. Morality flies out the window when God walks in the door.

[dknightx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If God was proven to exist, some way or another, it would be incredibly stupid to question its logic. Our knowledge is very limited compared to an omnipotent and omniscient being.

[/ QUOTE ]
nonsense, if god exists then it is would be incredibly stupid to ignore the reasoning ability he gave us, and even stupider to ignore our god given sense of justice.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

how much of your reasoning ability and sense of justice is determined by your nature and surroundings? (just curious)

[/ QUOTE ]
All of it but if god exists then out nature (and surroundings) are god given.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

i think we've discussed this next part alraedy (or maybe it was midge), but whatever:

what brings God more glory (which is his ultimate goal), creating you with a sense of understanding and justice that wants to deny God, yet you still choose God because of who He is, or, creating you with a sense of understanding and justice that wants to accept God, and so you do?

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
what brings God more glory (which is his ultimate goal), creating you with a sense of understanding and justice that wants to deny God, yet you still choose God because of who He is, or, creating you with a sense of understanding and justice that wants to accept God, and so you do?

[/ QUOTE ] So the most glory would be brought to God by bringing everyone to him but 1 poor soul. Just so he knows that his tests works?

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If God was proven to exist, some way or another, it would be incredibly stupid to question its logic. Our knowledge is very limited compared to an omnipotent and omniscient being.

[/ QUOTE ]
nonsense, if god exists then it is would be incredibly stupid to ignore the reasoning ability he gave us, and even stupider to ignore our god given sense of justice.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

how much of your reasoning ability and sense of justice is determined by your nature and surroundings? (just curious)

[/ QUOTE ]
All of it but if god exists then out nature (and surroundings) are god given.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

i think we've discussed this next part alraedy (or maybe it was midge), but whatever:

what brings God more glory (which is his ultimate goal), creating you with a sense of understanding and justice that wants to deny God, yet you still choose God because of who He is, or, creating you with a sense of understanding and justice that wants to accept God, and so you do?

[/ QUOTE ]
You make very strange assumptions that god is after glory and that in someway he needs us for it.

Suggesting that god gains from the suffering of the weak and innocent may not please him much. If that's your view you better hope god is benevolent.

chez

[madnak]

How do you know you can trust God? Why do you simply assume that if God exists, he's perfectly good? I would think a more reasonable assumption is that he contains both good and evil in him. And by the same token, both honesty and deceit.

Now, if you accept that the Christian God is proven true according to all the attributes presented in the Bible, then yeah, I can't go and resist that. If we prove that God is omnibenevolent, then I follow God.

It's if we prove that God exists, but not that he's omnibenevolent, that there's a problem.

[FortunaMaximus]

How so? If that's the standard he sets for this Universe, that benevolence is not the rule, and we are wrong in assuming that...

This then becomes a question of whether God is wrong or we are. So usurp him and insert an omnibenevolent God in its place?

[Lestat]

<font color="blue">How do you know you can trust God? </font>

What's the alternative?

If a guy holds a gun to your head and says, "Gimme your money or you die", it's possible he may still shoot you after giving him your money. Yet this is not a reason to withhold your money from him. Or do you think it is?

[Lestat]

<font color="blue">I'm not sure that is the belief of the majority of atheists. That is illogical. </font>

I never said the "majority" of atheists. But a quick of SPM should confirm that there are at least a few who DO think this way.

<font color="blue">Another point to consider-- even if there was a God, it may be safe to assume that Txag and all the theists were wrong about a significant part about God... ie, God may be logical, but the Bible isn't. </font>

When I said, "Proven to me", I meant everything. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

<font color="blue">I can picture if there was a God he would laugh at the literalists... "You think I would write such an unclear message? Didn't you notice that the translations vary? You honestly think a book that was based on an oral tradition then copied mistakes an all thousands of times is going to be accurate? Didn't you play the telephone game when you were a kid? Oooh, my naive children. I gave you a brain, use it!" </font>

-lol I couldn't agree more.

[FortunaMaximus]

Well, doesn't that introduce a paradox for the Christian? If you're capable of defending yourself against a gun to the head, which isn't that outlandish, common sense would dictate the correct course of action is to combat the gunman, and if you don't succeed and get shot anyway, you're going to Paradise anyway.

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
One problem is that there isn't such a entity as "THE" xtrian god and it's near impossible to get a xtrian to lay out what attributes they are claiming for their particular personalized ( even within a local sect) brand.

[/ QUOTE ]
The Baptist Faith and Message (2000 Edition) (http://www.houstonsfirst.org/pdf/our_beliefs.pdf)

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
If a guy holds a gun to your head and says, "Gimme your money or you die", it's possible he may still shoot you after giving him your money. Yet this is not a reason to withhold your money from him. Or do you think it is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's a different situation because I know he probably doesn't want to kill me. If someone holds a gun to my head and tells me to get in his car, I'm not getting in. And actually, I'm unstable enough that I might just not give him my money.

At any rate, txag isn't making his argument from a utilitarian perspective. I mean, going to hell because God's unjust is noble but stupid, I'd agree with you there.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One problem is that there isn't such a entity as "THE" xtrian god and it's near impossible to get a xtrian to lay out what attributes they are claiming for their particular personalized ( even within a local sect) brand.

[/ QUOTE ]
The Baptist Faith and Message (2000 Edition) (http://www.houstonsfirst.org/pdf/our_beliefs.pdf)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, exactly, thanks txg. There is nothing in there that would enable a person to differentiate that god from any dozens of others.
It's like saying, "you'll recognize my neighbor when he show up - he's good to his kids and did well in school."

Now we'll wait for the other 22 'descriptions' to show up and see if they'll compile.

luckyme

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
But I don't see the point, because there is not one iota of evidence to suggest that God does, in fact, exist.

[/ QUOTE ]
1. The impact of Jesus' life upon history
2. The fulfilled prophecy in the life of Jesus
3. The resurrection of Jesus from the dead

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
1. The impact of Jesus' life upon history

[/ QUOTE ]

the fact that one man's life had such an impact? is that so much more likely in a universe with a god than in one without? or is there something about that impact that points to god and you were just being brief?

[ QUOTE ]
2. The fulfilled prophecy in the life of Jesus

[/ QUOTE ]

isn't it possible that jesus was aware of a lot of prophecies and intentionally fulfilled them, or maybe things were made up after the fact to fit jesus in with them, among other explanations?

if you look at fulfilled prophecy in a vacuum, ignoring all the other reasons you believe in god, isn't it pretty weak evidence by itself?

[ QUOTE ]
3. The resurrection of Jesus from the dead

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, you have to know that one is silly. you might as well have said "the parting of the red sea."

[CityFan]

[ QUOTE ]

1. The impact of Jesus' life upon history

[/ QUOTE ]

This is how religions are formed. A myth is built up around a prophet of some kind, and the message is spread to pliable people around the world. The same argument could be used to justify every other major religion.

You seem to be saying that the evidence for a Christian God is the fact that Christianity exists. Bizarre.

Still, it's the best of your pieces of "evidence".

[ QUOTE ]

2. The fulfilled prophecy in the life of Jesus

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you actually read those prophecies? If you have, you'll know that they were pretty vague and Jesus fulfilled them in a pretty loose way. Moreover, the keepers of those particular scriptures (Jews) have always seen them as poems and stories rather than actual predictions.

Add to that the fact that the biblical Jesus explicitly stated that he was there to fulfil prophecies: any crazy man could have gone around trying to fit his life to the stories.

Or anyone writing about Jesus' life could have written it to fit the stories. Especially if they were making the whole thing up.

[ QUOTE ]

3. The resurrection of Jesus from the dead

[/ QUOTE ]

"and at first they didn't recognise him, because he looked nothing like Jesus, but then he said 'no, no, I am Jesus really. Come with me...'"

I paraphrase of course.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I don't see the point, because there is not one iota of evidence to suggest that God does, in fact, exist.

[/ QUOTE ]
1. The impact of Jesus' life upon history
2. The fulfilled prophecy in the life of Jesus
3. The resurrection of Jesus from the dead

[/ QUOTE ]

The annoying thing to me is I actually think Txag knows these don't constitute evidence of a God. I know he's an intelligent guy and i think he knows that these are easily blasted apart.

[ QUOTE ]
1. The impact of Jesus' life upon history


[/ QUOTE ]

First, there's a lot of ways to interpret this. Perhaps you mean the Crusades? The inquisition? Torture and murder in the name of God?

though at the most simple level, the effect of the story of Jesus' life on history has NO bearing on whether (a) the story is real (b) if there is a God.

I guess Muhammed and Islam must be real as well. I guess every religion that has had an effect on a significant population for a significant period must be real as well. Certainly the Roman Gods and Greek Gods were real.

Come to think of, Santa Claus must be real. Look at his influence throughout the world.

[ QUOTE ]
3. The resurrection of Jesus from the dead

[/ QUOTE ]

except that of course there's no proof other then a book that is likely a fairy tale that proves this.

Again, Txag, you have NO evidence other then you blindly believing the writings of primitive man close to 2000 years ago.

If some guy believed it then and wrote it... it must be true!

[txag007]

THE IMPACT OF JESUS' LIFE UPON HISTORY
[ QUOTE ]
This is how religions are formed. A myth is built up around a prophet of some kind, and the message is spread to pliable people around the world. The same argument could be used to justify every other major religion.

[/ QUOTE ]
H.G. Wells (A Short History of the World):

“The personal teaching of Jesus does seem to mark a new phase in the moral and spiritual life of our race. Its insistence upon the universal Fatherhood of God and the implicit brotherhood of all men, its insistence upon the sacredness of every human personality as a living temple of God, was to have the profoundest effect upon all the subsequent social and political life of mankind. With Christianity, with the spreading teachings of Jesus, a new respect appears in the world for man as man.”

Bernard Ramm (Protestant Christian Evidences):

“Statistically speaking, the Gospels are the greatest literature ever written. They are read by more people, quoted by more authors, translated into more tongues, represented in more art, set to more music, than any other book or books written by any man in any century in any land. But the words of Christ are not great on the grounds that they have such a statistical edge over anybody else’s words. They are read more, quoted more, loved more, believed more, and translated more because they are the greatest words ever spoken. And where is their greatness? Their greatness lies in the pure, lucid spirituality in dealing clearly, definitively, and authoritatively with the greatest problems that throb in the human breast; namely, Who is God? Does he love me? What should I do to please him? How does he look at my sin? How can I be forgiven? Where will I go when I die? How must I treat others? No other man’s words have the appeal of Jesus’ words because no other man can answer these fundamental questions as Jesus answered them. They are the kind of words and the kind of answers we would expect God to give, and we who believe in Jesus’ diety have no problem as to why these words came from his mouth.”

Jesus (Luke 21:33):
“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.”

His words have not passed away; pretty impressive for a ministry that only last three years. Then again, that’s something we would expect of God, is it not?

THE FULFILLED PROPHECY IN THE LIFE OF JESUS
[ QUOTE ]
Have you actually read those prophecies? If you have, you'll know that they were pretty vague and Jesus fulfilled them in a pretty loose way...Add to that the fact that the biblical Jesus explicitly stated that he was there to fulfil prophecies: any crazy man could have gone around trying to fit his life to the stories.


[/ QUOTE ]
Because any crazy man can predict his lineage and his place of birth, right?

Genesis 22:18 says the Messiah would be the seed of Abraham.

Genesis 21:12 says the Messiah would be born through the lineage of Isaac.

Numbers 24:17 says He would come from the lineage of Jacob.

Genesis 49:10 and Micah 5:2 say He would come from the tribe of Judah.

Micah 5:2 also says He would come from Bethlehem, which was fulfilled when Jesus was born there.

Isaiah 11:1 says He would come from the lineage of Jesse.

Jeremiah 23:5 says He would come from the lineage of David.

Psalm 72:10 and Isaiah 60:6 say He will be presented with gifts from the kings of Sheba and Seba, which was fulfilled upon his birth.

And of course, as has been discussed in another thread, there is the prophesy in Daniel of the exact time Jesus would ride into Jerusalem to be crucified. This was written centuries before, but any crazy man could have chosen the time of his birth, right?

[ QUOTE ]
Or anyone writing about Jesus' life could have written it to fit the stories. Especially if they were making the whole thing up.


[/ QUOTE ]
To say there was strong opposition to christianity in the first century would be an understatement. If the things mentioned above were in fact false, christianity would not have grown like it did. It would have been easy to prove it false.

Furthermore, here are a few non-biblical writers and historians who reference Jesus in their writings:

Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus (born 52-54 A.D.)

Lucian of Samosata (lived in 2nd century)

Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (born 37 A.D.)

Gentile writer Thallus (writing in 52 A.D.)

Phlegon (first century historian)

Justin Martyr (writing in 150 A.D.)

THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS FROM THE DEAD

What is your theory on this? That the body disappeared from the tomb is a matter of historical fact. Christianity would not have grown like it did if its critics had been able to produce the body of Jesus. Instead they were silent on the matter of the resurrection.

The Jewish historian Josephus mentions in Antiquities that Jesus "appeared to them alive on the third day".

[ QUOTE ]
"and at first they didn't recognise him, because he looked nothing like Jesus, but then he said 'no, no, I am Jesus really. Come with me...'"

I paraphrase of course.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's the only thing you've got against the resurrection? He made 15 different post-resurrection appearances. He let Thomas inspect his nail-scarred hands, and one time appeared to 500 people at once.

[Hopey]

[ QUOTE ]
There is something I find illogical about the way some atheists think. Mainly their contention that even if the Christian God were proven to be true, they still would reject Him and his religion. This is usually followed by an explanation of why they would rather burn in hell than to worship such an unworthy god. But is this logical?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're confusing the views of the majority of atheists with the views of Midge.

Personally, I'd be quite willing to admit I was wrong and worship 'god' if he showed himself to me. Of course, were this to happen, I'd be more likely to be worried that I was suffering from schizophrenia rather than actually communicating with a higher power...but I digress. /images/graemlins/smile.gif