When is it deep enough for pot control with bottum set? [Archive]

View Full Version : When is it deep enough for pot control with bottum set?

JackAll

11-02-2006, 07:17 AM

I posted this in the lower stakes forum, but they didn't quite get the point of deep stack issue. Apologies for posting twice, but thought I might get a response here.

Stats:
Villain 55/20/0.5
Me: 21/18/4 (raising and 3-betting pf aggressively)

Flow of the game:
I was positioned to his immediate left, and with his high pfr%, I rrz'd JJ+,AJ+,KQ and all suited connectors, which was a fair bit of 3-betting. He called 3-bets 100BB's deep with low pairs like 44/66 and JQs, so he's not good with odds. He didn't seem to get pissed off with my 3-betting though. As you can see his AF is very low, and he called flop and turn bets with weak draws.

The hand:
Pot control with a set isn't something I'm used to thinking about, so it just didn't occur to me until after the hand - I guess because it's so rare that I have there are 2 of us at a table with stacks this deep with monsters.

He is passive post flop, so he has a hand here for sure.

We beat 12 2pr hands
We lose to 12 hands that make another set
We lose to 16 hands that make a str8

It would be fine 100BB deep but how deep do you need to be for pot control on the flop here? And when you are that deep, how do you handle the flop?

Btw, this isn't a bbv hand - I didn't lose it. My question is about playing this hand so deep stacked.
------------------------------------------------------------
UTG (267 BB)
Hero (263 BB)
CO (-)
Button (-)
SB (-)
BB (-)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG raises to 3.5 BB, Hero calls 3.5 BB, 4 folds.

Flop: ($4.25) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets 9.5 BB, UTG raises to 17 BB, Hero raises to 60 BB, UTG raises to 187 BB, Hero raises to 260 BB (all-in), UTG calls.

Turn: (523 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)

River: (523 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: 523 BB

wake_up

11-02-2006, 07:21 AM

With someone who is that passive postflop, I would fold to his 4-bet pretty quickly.

munkey

11-02-2006, 08:28 AM

I assume this is NL100 from the PFR BTP size.
Although you're 200 BB semi-deep x2buyin, I don't think I'm folding a set here vs. this villan 50/20 though the 0.5 aggr does worry me. My pot control here is to get it as big as I can.

300bb deep I might slow down, and with a wet board or TAG regulars I'll probably slowdown.

So he has overpair/set/2pair/str8/ str8draw, given on the flop you lose only to 8To,77,99 and str8 draw has 8 outs. Even if he has the str8 onthe flop we have 1/3 redraws to FH(as it happens turn paired - so I guess he had 8T) we're a favourite over his range I'm AI this flop.

wake_up

11-02-2006, 08:32 AM

They are 263 BB deep.

0.5 AF is really really passive.

Pelion

11-02-2006, 08:36 AM

I dont think you can ignore pair + straight draw hands here either. Im all in against this villain.

Against a tight player im trying to keep the pot small here.

avfletch

11-02-2006, 08:47 AM

How many hands is this over? If you've played several hundred hands then take note of the stats but I think you're reading way too much into it if it's only 20 hands or so.

munkey

11-02-2006, 08:52 AM

Sample size for stats, for the aggr factor?

Sorry to clarify anywhere from 200-300ish is my approximate area where I consider myself wiling to fold hands that 100bb deep i'd automatically felt (it's just a personal gray area thing -anything in between it depends on the player). Given how often you sit on 200bbs after you've stacked someone, I'm willing to AI here vs this player.

If you join a table with a fishy player on mutliple buyins, you will have to stack him 200bb+ without the nuts sometime and here seems like a good tem to get the monies in.

It depends who I'm against -if this was a TAG regular and we were that deep I would cnisder a different line.

Ye, forgot pair+str8draw hands though I'm not sure whether villan would felt those except maybe TT?

JackAll

11-02-2006, 12:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I assume this is NL100 from the PFR BTP size.
Although you're 200 BB semi-deep x2buyin, I don't think I'm folding a set here vs. this villan 50/20 though the 0.5 aggr does worry me. My pot control here is to get it as big as I can.

300bb deep I might slow down, and with a wet board or TAG regulars I'll probably slowdown.

So he has overpair/set/2pair/str8/ str8draw, given on the flop you lose only to 8To,77,99 and str8 draw has 8 outs. Even if he has the str8 onthe flop we have 1/3 redraws to FH(as it happens turn paired - so I guess he had 8T) we're a favourite over his range I'm AI this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really agree with any of this. how is 260BB different from 300?
And I would rather get it in vs a TAG cuz I know he would be aggro enough to do this with a draw. I really doubt he has less than 2pr made hand with his low AF here, which puts him as the favorite.

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think you can ignore pair + straight draw hands here either. Im all in against this villain.

Against a tight player im trying to keep the pot small here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, after his min rz, I could put him on that, but when he kept going, I can pretty well rule out combo draws I think.

[ QUOTE ]
How many hands is this over? If you've played several hundred hands then take note of the stats but I think you're reading way too much into it if it's only 20 hands or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

120 I think. Which enough for an approx AF reading.

[ QUOTE ]
Sample size for stats, for the aggr factor?

Sorry to clarify anywhere from 200-300ish is my approximate area where I consider myself wiling to fold hands that 100bb deep i'd automatically felt (it's just a personal gray area thing -anything in between it depends on the player). Given how often you sit on 200bbs after you've stacked someone, I'm willing to AI here vs this player.

If you join a table with a fishy player on mutliple buyins, you will have to stack him 200bb+ without the nuts sometime and here seems like a good tem to get the monies in.

It depends who I'm against -if this was a TAG regular and we were that deep I would cnisder a different line.

Ye, forgot pair+str8draw hands though I'm not sure whether villan would felt those except maybe TT?

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're all saying that against this super passive player, you would felt bottom set on a str8 flop board with unlimited depth of stacks?

I'm kinda lost on this thinking. Donks do actually hit hands guys. And I don't get how almost everyone here is happy to get any sized stack in. Even if he was aggro, I'm not sure how deep we need to be to fold, but I'm sure there is a stack size. I would guess around 250BB cuz I would be ok with this for 200BB I think. And after his min-rz, I guess I should have raised to 34BB for some pot control here. But since everyone seems ok to get stacked no matter how deep, this is really just my own thoughts.

ChipStorm

11-02-2006, 01:10 PM

JackAll, with so much at stake in this hand, indicating results in your OP is really going to skew the responses you get.

I'd play pot control on the flop and flat call his c/r, but note my Title.

When that turn boats us, however, I'm going to town.

Wolfram

11-02-2006, 01:17 PM

IMO folding flopped sets HU in µ-stakes or small stakes is like worrying about how to play flopped quads. It happens so rarely that you flop a set HU and are beat that you can just chalk it up to variance.

When you start folding in this spot, you'll need a super good read that this guy isn't just tired of your aggression and decides to go to town with top 2.

Shaddux

11-02-2006, 01:25 PM

Don't fold when the turn card is going to be that awesome.

ChipStorm

11-02-2006, 01:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
IMO folding flopped sets HU in µ-stakes or small stakes is like worrying about how to play flopped quads. It happens so rarely that you flop a set HU and are beat that you can just chalk it up to variance.

When you start folding in this spot, you'll need a super good read that this guy isn't just tired of your aggression and decides to go to town with top 2.

[/ QUOTE ]
You and I are generally on the same page here; this situation happens seldom.

But note that I'm not talking about folding here. I'm just talking about not going nuts on the flop, about practicing some pot control, on a board that offers bigger hands, and where ours *may* not be best.

We don't have to write villain a great big option for our entire stack on the flop. We have time, position, and a deep stack that gives us lots of flexibility; might as well use our weapons.

munkey

11-02-2006, 04:16 PM

O.K. let me clarify better (if possible) I'm not the best at explaining my posts so I'll try , be patient

[ QUOTE ]

I don't really agree with any of this. how is 260BB different from 300?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Even if he was aggro, I'm not sure how deep we need to be to fold, but I'm sure there is a stack size. I would guess around 250BB cuz I would be ok with this for 200BB I think

[/ QUOTE ]

We all have our own personal preference of how deep is deep enough to fold hands we wouldn't do for 100bbs just like for 30bbs I doubt most would fold TPTK, mine is just 200-300 and varies.

Even if on the flop we suspect he'll only felt this deep with the nuts - we can call the flop raise and provided he doesn't AI we can use our position as chipstorm described on the turn to see showdown cheaper if that's what you want to do or wait for board pairing and try and extract then.

[ QUOTE ]

So you're all saying that against this super passive player, you would felt bottom set on a str8 flop board with unlimited depth of stacks?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing villan would actually have been fairly slowplaying passive if Hero didnt re-raise to 60 BB on the flop. if you reraise to 60 you have to call a push, if you don't want to play for stacks on the flop then call the raise but risk str8 cards.

[ QUOTE ]

Don't fold when the turn card is going to be that awesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

This clinches it for me, and no i wouldn't felt this board with unlimited stacks unless I had a read /images/graemlins/tongue.gif