What's primary source of winnings in micro-NL?

[Oranzith]

I mean c-bets are foregranted, but they don't seem to be a major factor in swings. Are we aiming to consistently stack people?

A winning or losing sessions for me basically depends on how many bad beats/coolers I run into. If my sets get cracked a couple times in a day, I have a losing session, where if they hold up (not lately) I have a good day. Stuff like that.

Is the money in the 'grind' or c-betting and small pots, or are we out for the knock out punches? my interpretation is the knock-out punch in +EV situations and leave it at that.

[wake_up]

The #1 way to win money in uNL is to hit bottom/middle set on a A or K high board to someone's AK and play it fast.

[HitNRunPoster]

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The #1 way to win money in uNL is to hit bottom/middle set on a A or K high board to someone's AK and play it fast.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you avoid losing your stack vs middle set when you have ak? Because if not, this is all illusory.

[wake_up]

I see what you are saying. I don't make a habit of losing my stack with TPTK type hands, although it does happen occasionally. I play such hands with extreme caution.

I think that an advantage I have over the average uNL player is that I don't slowplay sets, which is the key to stakcing ppl. I've seen people so intent on slowplaying and trying to C/R their sets that they often end up with such a small pot on the river because it's gone check/check on every street.

[netstorm]

I think the key to winning in uML is playing fast fast fast. Monotone flop and you have the flush? Bet. People will call you down with TP+ since they wont give you credit for playing a flush that fast. Hit a set? Bet out.

[Oranzith]

i agree. fast is good. this however does not explain that my sets are winning 50% of the time for a negative outcome of $$$. instead, the doomswitch does, and inevitably need to email fulltilt

[CaseS87]

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The #1 way to win money in uNL is to hit bottom/middle set on a A or K high board to someone's AK and play it fast.

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Do you avoid losing your stack vs middle set when you have ak? Because if not, this is all illusory.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of people slow play/not bet nearly enough their sets allowing you to see showdown with your TPTK a lot cheaper than you let them.

[thac]

The key to micro-stakes is just value betting. Plain and simple.

[Pelion]

The other point about TPTK is that you can usually tell if you are up against a set / TPWK.

Most fish will raise a set by the turn whereas they will just call along with a worse TP.
It gets even better if they are aggro with weak top pairs. Then you can just call them and know that they have TPWK more often than set/2 pair.

[redCashion]

When do non-fish raise their set? It seems raising your set on the turn is pretty standard for everyone (or maybe I'm just a fish).

[avfletch]

OK, first off I'd like to point out that there's no such thing as a losing session unless you play when you're off your game. If you sat when it was +EV then you made money. Two nights ago I got AA/KK/QQ 3 hands in a row and got stacked with all of them. All three times I got it in as a favourite so I made money.

It's really hard to see when you've only played a few thousand hands but in the long run if you're +EV then you make money, it's as simple as that.

As a side note, for everyone saying that they play TPTK with extreme caution, I hope you're only applying this to the big streets. Unless you have a real strong read on someone then you should be felting TPTK on the flop. For every time it turns out to be wrong it'll be right *way* more often.

Finally, the money you make at these stakes comes from making less mistakes than your opponents. You don't win at these stakes, you just lose less badly. One of the first steps to becoming a good player is to accept that you suck and use it to drive you to improve your game. Fortunately 90%+ of your opponents will suck more so you'll make money on the way.

[xGREGORx]

The long-term key to winning in NL is to not make mistakes in big pots, but the random mistake in small pots won't affect you very much. And for uNL, value bet your opponents to death and avoid fancy play syndrome.

[4_2_it]

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The key to micro-stakes is just value betting. Plain and simple.

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QFT

[ChipStorm]

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The key to micro-stakes is just value betting. Plain and simple.

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QFT

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Certainly true, but HitNRunPoster makes an excellent point: the other key is to not be the donk on the other side of this trade, who calls the value bets all the time with crap.

Just as you value bet others to death, you have to fold your mediocre hands when it's clear you're beat or don't have odds to continue.

[4_2_it]

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The key to micro-stakes is just value betting. Plain and simple.

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QFT

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Certainly true, but HitNRunPoster makes an excellent point: the other key is to not be the donk on the other side of this trade, who calls the value bets all the time with crap.

Just as you value bet others to death, you have to fold your mediocre hands when it's clear you're beat or don't have odds to continue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent point. The money you don't lose spends as well as the money you win /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[matrix]

playing a set fast and stacking AK on an A high board is called Value betting.

Making an extra modest river bet with TPTK that the donks won't make cos their scared of the 3flush board that gets called sometimes by hands you're ahead of is called Value betting

pushing when you rivered some unlikely nuts in a small pot and you think there's a good chance villain will call with his likely rivered 2 pair+ or just cos he's a station is also known as value betting

Take a birds eye view of uNL poker for a second.

Assuming you play long enough the luck evens out in the end. So if you win more when you have a big hand than the other players will in the same situations, and if you lose less chips than the others do when you have a mediocre/bad hand.

If you play less -EV hands (e.g. almost any hand OOP no matter how good you are) and more +EV hands than the others do.

Then you will be a winner and not a loser in the long run.


Also remember that you can spend moeny you don't lose just as well as you can spend money you win. The donks love to stack off with AA when it's very clear their beat. They play to a rigid set of guidelines that they never adjust to suit the table they are playing on, they don't understand position at all, they fold draws when they clearly have odds to continue, they chase unlikely draws when they have no odds to continue.

Don't be the donk.

[Scottery]

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The key to micro-stakes is just value betting. Plain and simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

bingo..
And lots of hands

[lorez]

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Finally, the money you make at these stakes comes from making less mistakes than your opponents. You don't win at these stakes, you just lose less badly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I often find that when I go to post a hand I've had trouble with it's normally down to the fact I made a simple mistake and should of realised how the hand was going. I know when I'm having a bad session, I come away feeling I played badly and calledraised/bluffed when I shouldn't as the villains hand was obvious. If I get stacked while playing the hand correctly and get out drawn then I don't mind as I know that over the long run things even out and I'll get sucked out on again someday.

I guess it's a matter of not being results orientated, if you play good poker you'll make money in the long run

[JCCARL]

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The key to micro-stakes is just value betting. Plain and simple.

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QFT

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Certainly true, but HitNRunPoster makes an excellent point: the other key is to not be the donk on the other side of this trade, who calls the value bets all the time with crap.

Just as you value bet others to death, you have to fold your mediocre hands when it's clear you're beat or don't have odds to continue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent point. The money you don't lose spends as well as the money you win /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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Very Mike Caro-esque of you

[Wolfram]

Key to µ-limit

A. Exploiting situations where you have a good edge
B. Having the patience to wait for A.

[Shaddux]

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The #1 way to win money in uNL is to hit bottom/middle set on a A or K high board to someone's AK and play it fast.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a pretty big part of my strategy.

[kurto]

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Key to µ-limit

A. Exploiting situations where you have a good edge
B. Having the patience to wait for A.

[/ QUOTE ]

That basically translates to - Good starting hands relative to position.

There are just so many players who have no patience and must play 50% of all hands. Seeing 2-3 fish battling huge pots with 2nd pair vs TP with a 6 kicker... its tempting to get in their with junk. Playing better cards then them and you will profit (unless you're in one of those periods where every 3 outer against you hits on the river, you will profit.)

On a side note: Reads, man. Reads.

Playing $50 tables last night... simply knowing that you have to call with TP good kicker against the idiot with infinite aggression and fold TPTK to the turn reraise by the rock... MONEY.

[kokiri]

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Assuming you play long enough the luck evens out in the end. So if you win more when you have a big hand than the other players will in the same situations, and if you lose less chips than the others do when you have a mediocre/bad hand.

If you play less -EV hands (e.g. almost any hand OOP no matter how good you are) and more +EV hands than the others do.

Then you will be a winner and not a loser in the long run.


[/ QUOTE ]

true enough. But you still have to win enough to beat the rake. When I look back at the beginning of poker tracker DB, I am amazed less by the fact that I lost money, and less by the fact that I played like **** but more by the fact that I was actually ahead, but just that I was not covering the rake.

[jonyy6788]

If you aren't very good or are going through a slump then rakeback+bonus is huge money for you.

The main key to consistently winning is to know when/how to extract chips when you got the goods and when/how to control the pot size when you don't have the goods, but still a strong hand.

[kabouter]

I think the rake can be a pain in the ass indeed, and I do think we pay too much for playing online poker at most sites. I won $200 on my first month and paid like $70 rake, to me that is a lot of money...

[Oranzith]

10NL on FTP consistently sees 70c + rake on 'big hands'

I remember last night getting it AI on the turn w/ AK. we both flip AK and lost 50c each. thats 10 BB lol

[pokerchap]

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The key to micro-stakes is just value betting. Plain and simple.

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QFT

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YES!

[4_2_it]

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Excellent point. The money you don't lose spends as well as the money you win /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Very Mike Caro-esque of you

[/ QUOTE ]

You get today's Gold Star!

http://gwhs.us/RVersace/Gold_Star.gif

[Wolfram]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Key to µ-limit

A. Exploiting situations where you have a good edge
B. Having the patience to wait for A.


[/ QUOTE ]
That basically translates to - Good starting hands relative to position.

[/ QUOTE ]
No it doesn't. It means you should think on every street if this is a good spot to put your money in or if you should just let it go and wait for a better opportunity.

A prime example would be if you raise AK, hit TPTK, and get check/raised on the turn by a (relative) TAG. Then you should fold and wait for a better opportunity.

Someone with not enough patience would say "[censored] it!" and just push all in because they waited so long for AK and then can't let it go when it's very likely they're beat (trust me, I know because I've been there).

This also ties in quite neatly with your comment about reads. They're essential to recognize when you have an edge.

[kurto]

I think I was trying to see in a belabored way that one edge you have at microlimits is good hand selection.

A lot of winnings come because I'm not calling down with top-pair 3 kicker and my opponents are.

ie-- to be in a situation where you are "Exploiting situations where you have a good edge" you need to start with a good edge. The simplest way to do that is to have better hand selection then your opponents (not difficult to do when many of them are playing 40%+ of all their hands) and to understand the value of position (I'd say 2/3rds of the opponents are clueless).

Add in reads and you're golden!

[KingOfSwords]

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Playing $50 tables last night... simply knowing that you have to call with TP good kicker against the idiot with infinite aggression and fold TPTK to the turn reraise by the rock... MONEY.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent point, especially for beginners.

[robinmbuk]

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This also ties in quite neatly with your comment about reads. They're essential to recognize when you have an edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is so true. I think too many here make 'standard' plays without adjusting properly based on reading the situation / player. Although I think stanard plays are good enough to make reasonable profit (they are standard because they are good plays), adding proper reads really brings home the big $s (compared to the buy in limits we play at of course).

[gimmetheloot]

Bluff. Alot.
Pray. More.
Pattern. Mapper.

[Everlong]

*The usually very bad (as in my two year old son wouldn't fair much worse), the drunk, the tilted and/or the over-confident opposition.
*The button.
*Playing with the minimum of emotional investment.

[Pelion]

[ QUOTE ]
you should think on every street if this is a good spot to put your money in or if you should just let it go and wait for a better opportunity.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a major flaw in cash game mentality that ive noticed. Cash games arent about waiting for better oportunities. Their about deciding if you have an edge and pushing it if you think you do. If you figure to be 51/49 and you go bust then you played it right and you rebuy. Thats why we dont play tournaments. The only time you should be folding to "wait for a better spot" is if you arent getting the odds you think you need to play. Too many people (myself included) often decide that they are probably ahead but not by enough to risk it. They wait for a better spot and pass up an edge and thats just silly in a cash game IMHO.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

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The #1 way to win money in uNL is to hit bottom/middle set on a A or K high board to someone's AK and play it fast.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you avoid losing your stack vs middle set when you have ak? Because if not, this is all illusory.

[/ QUOTE ]

no it's not

[Big Poppa Smurf]

also i'd say "playing against retards" has got to rank up there as a source of real profit.

if you can keep doing this as you move up, you'll keep winning!

[limit refugee]

I was gonna say other peoples mistakes, but you said the same thing so much more elequently.

[Wolfram]

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you should think on every street if this is a good spot to put your money in or if you should just let it go and wait for a better opportunity.

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This is a major flaw in cash game mentality that ive noticed. Cash games arent about waiting for better oportunities. Their about deciding if you have an edge and pushing it if you think you do. If you figure to be 51/49 and you go bust then you played it right and you rebuy. Thats why we dont play tournaments. The only time you should be folding to "wait for a better spot" is if you arent getting the odds you think you need to play. Too many people (myself included) often decide that they are probably ahead but not by enough to risk it. They wait for a better spot and pass up an edge and thats just silly in a cash game IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are assuming that we always know exactly where we stand. If we knew with 100% certainty that we are a 51/49 favorite, then yes, we should always take that opportunity to play for our stack (assuming we are rolled for that kind of variance). However, this is a game of incomplete information, and part of the risk involved in taking 60/40 shots for our whole stack is the fact that sometimes we guess wrong and are in fact dominated.

That was what I was talking about. Sometimes I'm not quite sure where I'm at and then it's time to fold, rather than stick it in there and hope I have an edge.

You also have to consider that the smaller edges we push, the larger our variance becomes. And at the micro levels, we are constantly being offered huge edges for whole stacks so there is no need to push tiny edges.

[eigenvalue]

YEP, THAT'S IT!.

And I'm sure most players in the micros are not aware of that. They may think You are a weak tight player if You make those laydowns, but You are not. You are a very strong, very smart player instead!

[Acein8ter]

It's uNL players that do not understand odds and calling AI's with their drawing hands, TPTK and calling PF AI bets w/TT etc...

You can raise PF w/TT, hit top set, bet 3/4 pot and get a caller with a FD. The turn misses, you push AI. They call not knowing that the pot odds are against them.

Another mistake uNL players make is to call and AI PF w/AJo, ATs, KQ, TT, 99, etc...

I reraise aggressively w/AA, KK and try to get AI. Sometimes w/QQ.

Bottom line is that bad uNL make too many mistakes. Usually calling overbets with their drawing hands and 3rd, 4th best hands.