Am I just turning food into sh*t?

[JohnnyHumongous]

I'm having a lot of trouble finding meaning in my life. The commercialistic society we live in gives me little feeling of true purpose or fulfillment. I spend very little and spending money doesn't give me happiness like it does for many people I know. Right now I'm playing poker for a living and I do well at it, and it's mildly fulfilling in that I succeed at it and outplay most people yada yada yada. I go to the gym a fair bit and I'm trying to reach some weightlifting goals. I spend time with friends and family when I can and I travel a fair bit as well. For whatever reason, when I review these facts of my life, I get quite depressed. What's my life about? Not much as far as I can tell. Making money, keeping a social life and some exercise. But isn't that everyone's life more or less? If I was in consulting or finance or whatever it would be the same dilemma, just more hours in the office and less pay.

I can't be the only one feeling this way. So many people in society are on the same treadmill that many must feel the same odd sense of hopelessness. I look to the future and say, well if it's 30 more years of this this is stupid and pointless. Maybe I'm spoiled because thanks to poker I have more money than a 23 year old could possibly need and no family to support. The sad thing is I couldn't say off the top of my head what really compels me, what I would even be doing with my time if I wasn't a part of this cycle. When I was working I would have said poker was a passion of mine, well that's out as a fulfilling pastime now that's it's my job. Should I go back to school? Try to find some lifepath that is somehow deeply rewarding? Or just sit back and hope I find it in my travels...

Thanks for reading my ramblings, any thoughts and comments are greatly appreciated.

[hmkpoker]

Tried acid yet?

[bunny]

If poker has become a grind, find a new passion? If you're into cards I'd recommend bridge (though you have to not mind spending a lot of time surrounded by old women) - it's a much better game, though nowhere near as easy to make money out of.

Otherwise - try new stuff. Take up dancing, painting, music, go to billions of movies/plays til you find what's right. Go back to university and do a degree in something that interests you, rather than something that will lead to a career. That'd be my advice, anyhow. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
Otherwise - try new stuff. Take up dancing, painting, music, go to billions of movies/plays til you find what's right. Go back to university and do a degree in something that interests you, rather than something that will lead to a career. That'd be my advice, anyhow.

Post Extras



[/ QUOTE ]
This is the greatest advice I can think of. Only I would take dance, music, painting, at a univesity, if you enjoy these things only because there are lots of fun people ( including chicks ) at a university. Take whatever excites you, like, film school, archeology, photography, etc. Once your are at the university, you can join clubs, like travel clubs, skydiving clubs, etc. Personally, I'd migrate where the chicks migrate, but do what you want. Just socialize. That should make you undepressed.

[Phil153]

Challenges are what keeps life interesting. If you never try to do things which are exciting and challenging (both in the short and long term), then life gets boring.

[AWoodside]

I second hmkpoker sentiment. Acid might be too much right for you right now, who knows, but definately some mind expansion is in order. There isn't any meaning in the world except the meaning you create for yourself. It doesn't have to be through drugs either. I took a year off school and just backpacked in the mountains in New Zealand for 8 months, spending lots of time just with myself being introspective, best decision I ever made and helped me get over a type of existential crisis very similar to the one you seem to be going through.

If you want a shortcut, go here: http://www.bouncingbearbotanicals.com/

Order the san pedro cactus (legal to own), google a bit, have a 12 hour mescaline trip one weekend. Might change your life.

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm having a lot of trouble finding meaning in my life.

[/ QUOTE ]One of the best posts I've read in the SMP forum. Congratulations, if I may say so.

You are correct in your assessment of everything in your life. As the saying goes, "life is a bitch - and then we die". There's no meaning to life, as such, in the sense that we use the term "meaning". We give meaning to life. We give meaning to life.

And that meaning, when all the chips are down /images/graemlins/smile.gif, is about us -- and our place in the world. Left to our own devices, as we should be, we have to choose --without outside or "divine" intergerence-- between abandoning life and conducting a life.

The realization of being alone in our decision is the toughest part. It's really a bitch. When you come to think of it, every living creature on this planet is an organic contraption gorging on other creatures and converting them to gases and excrement. The planet can be viewed as a Disney-like place which has plenty of Good and plenty of Evil, and they are separate and quite distinguishable, and mostly Good wins, which is indeed a comforting picture -- or, realistically, as a theatre of the horrific and the absurd.

Add to this latter realisation, the realisation that our appearing on the scene of this theatre is a matter of chance -- and a chance so small, so remote as to render all sense of "probability" literally meaningless-- and you understand why the nausea.

So, it's up to us, for better or worse, to decide our individual and collective course on this Earth. Taking a step towards the realisation of the human condition, as you're now doing, is a step towards the right direction.

As to poker, Ray Zee is on record as being very sorry he wasted as much time as he did on playing poker and not on other things as well.

Look him up.

Mickey Brausch

[candyman718]

You getting laid?

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Try to find some lifepath that is somehow deeply rewarding?


[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus said the following:

I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"
Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life

For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

[Phil153]

Notready,

Your Jesus sounds like a bit of a narcissist.

Since this is spam-your-religion day, here's some alternative quotes from Buddha to consider:

"Just as a candle cannot burn without fire, men cannot live without a spiritual life. "
"We are formed and molded by our thoughts. Those whose minds are shaped by selfless thoughts give joy when they speak or act. Joy follows them like a shadow that never leaves. "
"Your work is to discover your world and then with all your heart give yourself to it. "
"Let us rise up and be thankful, for if we didn't learn a lot today, at least we learned a little, and if we didn't learn a little, at least we didn't get sick, and if we got sick, at least we didn't die; so, let us all be thankful. "

[MidGe]

Hiya Johnnny,

23 years old and already so much insight into life! Of course, it is an undeniable scientific fact that all human beings are sh*t making machines, You, me and every other one as well. This is not a matter of belief and subject to argument, show me one that doesn't make sh*t and I'll show you a dead one!

I think you should use your relatively rare insight in a positive way. Try to improve the process. Make sure that you do sh*t well. To do that, avoid the commercialism of the yellow (they call it golden, I think) arches, KFC, etc... and start concentrating and learning about yourself. Eat very good food, fresh, untainted by poisons ([pesticides etc,), drink very good wines rather than just average ones. You will start enjoying and your sh*t making abilities will increase in quality in ways unimaginable (not too runny, not too hard! The shade of brown is not that important; it will vary from day to day) .

Once you get on top of this first task, and don't get sidetracked by anal retentives that would have you surrender your possibility of contribution in return for a purely imaginary future or afterlife, look at the next logical step.

Obviously you have already some of the financial means. So, make it a point to try to improve other people abilities to fulfill their purposes in life. If they are not sh*tting well, it may be because they are undernourished, and it is for you to try to find a way to enable them to nourish themselves well and not fall to prey to the yellow arches, KFC or just sheer environmental factors that mean there is not enough for them to feed on. Spending your free time trying to allow others to also fulfill their purposes will give you no end of satisfaction and prevent a fall in the maudlin state of thinking life is without meaning, or its basic meaning is somehow not sufficient.

Hope this was helpful!

Let me know if I can help in any ways. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[CityFan]

Well, perhaps you should consider a more rewarding career path. Playing poker for a living isn't exactly making a contribution to society, after all.

Other things you could do...

Play sport. Instead of working out in the gym all the time, take up a team game. You might find more fulfilment there than simply in pushing weights.

Travel better. I don't know what kind of holidays you go on, but try to get out of the tourist zone. Climb some mountains, you know? Meet some real people out there too. It might give you a different perspective on life.

But, for all that you might try to change, you're not the only person who finds the modern world deeply unfulfilling. Don't forget the real reason you're here: find a nice girl, get married and raise some kids. That seems to be what makes people happy in the end.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
you're not the only person who finds the modern world deeply unfulfilling. Don't forget the real reason you're here: find a nice girl, get married and raise some kids. That seems to be what makes people happy in the end.

[/ QUOTE ]


The modern world not being fulfilling? You mean, before these times it was???

I agree with the find a partner (don't assume the OP is male or heterosexual), get married, or get the same rights at least, if possible, and, don't have kids... try adopting some.. really cool idea, since there are so many unwanted, at a loose end, already.

[CityFan]

I've only ever lived in the modern world, so can't possibly commetn on the fulfillingness or otherwise of the past. If I had to guess, I'd say it was probably pretty rubbish, too.

I'll also lay 100-1 that OP is male.

[chezlaw]

get a job, you'll soon realise just how good your life is. Then you can give up the job and enjoy life.

chez

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll also lay 100-1 that OP is male.

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't make it right to advocate marriage. Some so called "civilized" countries don't allow same sex marriage yet.

[CityFan]

If we had to make allowances for every possible sensitivity in every statement we made, we'd never get round to saying anything.

If OP is homosexual or female or opposed to marriage, I'm sure he or sh) will take my post in the spirit in which it was intended.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't forget the real reason you're here: find a nice girl, get married and raise some kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

As you said, it was not your intention to say, or infer, that.

[Darryl_P]

When I was in your state of mind (about 10 years ago), the unabomber's manifesto (http://www.thecourier.com/manifest.htm) helped me turn things around, along with some existential hiking in the mountains for about a month.

Society and all of its various players (psycholgists, psychiatrists, professors, businesspeople etc.) will try to get you to channel your energies into areas that help society continue along its current path.

The UM basically says the current path is a bad one, so their advice is best rejected. This part is absolutely brilliant IMO. Trouble is, the solution he recommends is not a terribly effective one (after all, he did land himself in jail), but if you can get to the point where you recognize the problem, then you've won half the battle. The other half is mainly a matter of time.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you're not the only person who finds the modern world deeply unfulfilling. Don't forget the real reason you're here: find a nice girl, get married and raise some kids. That seems to be what makes people happy in the end.

[/ QUOTE ]


The modern world not being fulfilling? You mean, before these times it was???

I agree with the find a partner (don't assume the OP is male or heterosexual), get married, or get the same rights at least, if possible, and, don't have kids... try adopting some.. really cool idea, since there are so many unwanted, at a loose end, already.

[/ QUOTE ]

Best long-term advice in this thread, IMHO.

We do permit same-sex marriages up here in Canada. It's made our politics interesting, and openly gay politicans have held cities and ridings. It's a fun country to live in.

But, yes, the point of the premise is that if you can find somebody you love, and the person comes with baggage, if you love her, the fact that she has a few kids should never hinder you from making life wonderful for the family.

Anyway. Don't overcomplicate things, OP. There truly is no deeper, ah-ha! meaning to life. It just is. Enjoy the little things.

[txag007]

Hi Johnny,

I read the responses to this thread. All of the suggestions like take up a new hobby, start a family, things like that are great, but all they offer are temporary fulfillment. That empty feeling will come back eventually.

What you are missing in your life is a relationship with Jesus Christ. I know from personal experience that allowing Jesus into your heart and living in complete reliance to Him is THE most fulfilling thing in the world.

If you'd like to know more about that, feel free to PM me. It's like Jesus said in the Bible to the woman at the well, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Have a great day!

[Phil153]

You people are like vultures. It's sickening.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I'm spoiled because thanks to poker I have more money than a 23 year old could possibly need and no family to support.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say you have no family to support right now. I think you will find more meaning with a few more years of perspective and a family you love.

Ask some coal miner how he finds meaning in digging underground in a cave all day, every day. His family, most likely.

Not saying you can't be fulfilled as an individual, just that loved ones add meaning to the mundane routines of our lives.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
You people are like vultures. It's sickening.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, how they carrion sometimes. <sighs>

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Your Jesus sounds like a bit of a narcissist.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure you've heard the trilemma.

I think Jesus would agree with the Buddha quotes.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

You people are like vultures.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain the simile.

[CityFan]

[ QUOTE ]
When I was in your state of mind (about 10 years ago), the unabomber's manifesto (http://www.thecourier.com/manifest.htm) helped me turn things around, along with some existential hiking in the mountains for about a month.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if OP is already a keen hiker, but I couldn't agree more. There really is nothing like it for cleansing the soul.

It won't make life's problems disappear, but it gives you a hell of a different perspective.

[Prodigy54321]

don't you enjoy anything?

video games, sports, music, yachting?...

there is no greater meaning to life...but in realizing this, most of us are still happy..because we do what makes us happy..

if your job isn't worth what you get out of the money you make, then stop..perhaps you'd be happier living a simpler life.

as far as finding christ goes...it is certainly not necessary to be happy..bt it does make some people happy..if there is nothing else, then maybe you should try that (note that you should try many religions though). although I'm worried that it will harm society as a whole..if you don't get satisfaction out of knowing that you are not helping to cause harm, then then there's no reason not to try to trick yourself into believing what makes you feel better. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[arahant]

Allow me.
Vultures circle the skies waiting for the smell of a weakened animal, then descend to prey on it.
'You people' circle the forums waiting for a smell of desperation, then offer up 'Jesus is the answer'.

Just as the vulture will never succeed in trying to feed on healthy game, no stable, happy human will ever have reason to cling to superstitions.

See it now?

[51cards]

No OP, you're also turning oxygen into carbon dioxide. Try to have fun in the meantime.

I have fun by beating people at games. Later I'll have kids and beat them at games.

[JohnnyHumongous]

I really have to thank everyone for the terrific replies.

First things first, I'm a straight male for all those speculating. Despite having spent a lot of time in church during my youth and being quite passionate about my beliefs, today I am an atheist because no matter how comforting some belief is I still can't justify believing in it if it's counterintuitive, improbable and illogical.

I really appreciate all the suggestions. I will look into as many of them as I can. Sure I'll try ethnobotanicals, why not haha. Get a more active extracurricular schedule going. I will read the unabomber manifesto as well. I'm even considering doing some writing because some people have told me I have a knack for it, although in college I took Econ and focused on the business side of things.

I hope this will all help me out in dealing with the "unfulfilling modern society" we live in haha. I have a lot of views on that as well but maybe we can discuss that at another time (probably in this forum too).

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

See it now?


[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[Alex-db]

txag007:
[ QUOTE ]
Hi Johnny,

I read the responses to this thread. All of the suggestions like take up a new hobby, start a family, things like that are great, but all they offer are temporary fulfillment. That empty feeling will come back eventually.

What you are missing in your life is a relationship with Jesus Christ. I know from personal experience that allowing Jesus into your heart and living in complete reliance to Him is THE most fulfilling thing in the world.

If you'd like to know more about that, feel free to PM me. It's like Jesus said in the Bible to the woman at the well, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Have a great day!

[/ QUOTE ]

Rev. Lovejoy:
[ QUOTE ]
This so-called "new religion" is nothing but a pack of weird rituals and chants designed to take away the money of fools. Let us say the Lord's Prayer forty times but first let's pass the collection plate!


[/ QUOTE ]

But seriously, and in response to whoever suggested acid, I often feel like you are describing and don't yet have a solution but I highly recommend shrooms. I still think acid sounds too dangerous, but shrooms don't kill people, aren't addictive and the downside is just a possible lower immune system for a while.

The upside (which could last months/years) is a feeling of having done something incredibly philosophically and intellectually meaningful, feeling like you have new perspectives on things, people might say you seem happier, more relaxed and nicer to others. And its also a very good way to spend an evening if the above wasn't true.

I have always assumed these people that hike an indian mountain to meet a shamen and have a mystical experience, end up with something similar in the mysterious tea they drink. I can't back that up, but the accounts sound very similar, except without the cost of the airfare and all the hiking.

[David Sklansky]

You are absolutely right. The vulture analogy is ridiculous. Maybe not for Scientology but certainly for Christianity. And this young fellow was not offended by your and txaq's genuine offers of help.

But still he said:

"Despite having spent a lot of time in church during my youth and being quite passionate about my beliefs, today I am an atheist because no matter how comforting some belief is I still can't justify believing in it if it's counterintuitive, improbable and illogical."

And here is where I have an issue with you Not Ready. I'm not talking about the fact that you think he is wrong. I'm talking about the fact that you don't realize that his atheism should be thought of and treated differently than the philosophical type. That second type of atheist is, by your standards, more akin to those biblical people you often bring up who knew there was a God and rejected him anyway. But this kid's atheism comes from his understanding of academic disciplines like logic and science. This is not a type of atheism that existed much in biblical days so if you are going to rebut it you should stop using biblical passages that it doesn't apply to.

In the past you have stated that the scientific based atheist is really just rationalizing his need to reject God so therefore he is actually the philosphical atheist with a disguise on. But that is just your human opinion. I don't think the Bible covers this. Most Christians, like BluffThis have no problem distinguishing between the two types of atheists and I don't think you would be untrue to your religious beliefs if you started doing the same thing.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Most Christians, like BluffThis have no problem distinguishing between the two types of atheists


[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to respond to this but I need some clarification. You mention 2 types of atheist and I'm not sure what you mean. Call them

1. Philosophical
2. Scientific

If you could be more specific about the characteristics and differences of each it would help.

And it'll have to be later. Bedtime.

[David Sklansky]

My definition of a the philosophical atheist is someone who is unhappy with the concept of God. More specific I cannot be.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
My definition of a the philosophical atheist is someone who is unhappy with the concept of God. More specific I cannot be.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, Yoda.

Anyway, would I be right in assuming that a "philosophical atheist" would not accept the nature of the Christian God, but seek to redefine the entity in the modern age as something or someone that doesn't micromanage and judge, but lets civilizations and individuals within come to their own intellectual and moral judgments.

And in the process, realize that the existence of one is redundant, and that given time and room to flourish, that it'd be an logical endstate for a civilization, and in effect, become Gods themselves?

Certainly not out of arrogance or a need for omnipotence, but as a solution set to resolve the problem of a finite Universe?

Because personally, that's how I've viewed the issue througout my adult life. The small-scale issues that most people seem concerned with in the 21st century are simply insignificant in the larger scope of consciousness and survival of the species. At least for some.

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
You are absolutely right. The vulture analogy is ridiculous. Maybe not for Scientology but certainly for Christianity. And this young fellow was not offended by your and txaq's genuine offers of help.

But still he said:

"Despite having spent a lot of time in church during my youth and being quite passionate about my beliefs, today I am an atheist because no matter how comforting some belief is I still can't justify believing in it if it's counterintuitive, improbable and illogical."


[/ QUOTE ]
Can I break in here for a second? I'd just like to point out the correlation between Johnny rejecting God and then struggling to find meaning in his life. I think that's very significant.

Carry on.

[CityFan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are absolutely right. The vulture analogy is ridiculous. Maybe not for Scientology but certainly for Christianity. And this young fellow was not offended by your and txaq's genuine offers of help.

But still he said:

"Despite having spent a lot of time in church during my youth and being quite passionate about my beliefs, today I am an atheist because no matter how comforting some belief is I still can't justify believing in it if it's counterintuitive, improbable and illogical."


[/ QUOTE ]
Can I break in here for a second? I'd just like to point out the correlation between Johnny rejecting Barney the Dinosaur and then struggling to find meaning in his life. I think that's very significant.

Carry on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds ridiculous now, doesn't it?

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are absolutely right. The vulture analogy is ridiculous. Maybe not for Scientology but certainly for Christianity. And this young fellow was not offended by your and txaq's genuine offers of help.

But still he said:

"Despite having spent a lot of time in church during my youth and being quite passionate about my beliefs, today I am an atheist because no matter how comforting some belief is I still can't justify believing in it if it's counterintuitive, improbable and illogical."


[/ QUOTE ]
Can I break in here for a second? I'd just like to point out the correlation between Johnny rejecting God and then struggling to find meaning in his life. I think that's very significant.

Carry on.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is significant, but it doesn't mean the correct course of action for him is to return to a belief in Christian dogmatic practices. It seems to be a common transitory effect for theists becoming rational atheists.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are absolutely right. The vulture analogy is ridiculous. Maybe not for Scientology but certainly for Christianity. And this young fellow was not offended by your and txaq's genuine offers of help.

But still he said:

"Despite having spent a lot of time in church during my youth and being quite passionate about my beliefs, today I am an atheist because no matter how comforting some belief is I still can't justify believing in it if it's counterintuitive, improbable and illogical."


[/ QUOTE ]
Can I break in here for a second? I'd just like to point out the correlation between Johnny rejecting Barney the Dinosaur and then struggling to find meaning in his life. I think that's very significant.

Carry on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds ridiculous now, doesn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, he recently gave up Ayn Rand too.

[madnak]

David,

Stop encouraging txag.

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are absolutely right. The vulture analogy is ridiculous. Maybe not for Scientology but certainly for Christianity. And this young fellow was not offended by your and txaq's genuine offers of help.

But still he said:

"Despite having spent a lot of time in church during my youth and being quite passionate about my beliefs, today I am an atheist because no matter how comforting some belief is I still can't justify believing in it if it's counterintuitive, improbable and illogical."


[/ QUOTE ]
Can I break in here for a second? I'd just like to point out the correlation between Johnny rejecting God and then struggling to find meaning in his life. I think that's very significant.

Carry on.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is significant, but it doesn't mean the correct course of action for him is to return to a belief in Christian dogmatic practices. It seems to be a common transitory effect for theists becoming rational atheists.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you realize all of that is consistent with what the Bible teaches? It takes you a little while to quench the Holy Spirit, and then soon your heart becomes hard and you won't be able to hear Him anymore.

[FortunaMaximus]

txag, I'm not the OP. My best friend's Catholic, rational, doesn't preach. I'm mainly agnostic, and figure there are some valid points that Christianity makes. Suffice it to say I lend more credibility to angels and archangels, and that there's a hierarchy, and that I doubt there's even anybody at top.

But expecting me to prostate and take everything the Bible says as literal or allegorical truth is another thing yet, and is about as likely in probability as India becoming a Christian democracy.

Then again, I look at spacetime and the Universe in general very differently than science does.

So you're both right, you're both wrong.

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are absolutely right. The vulture analogy is ridiculous. Maybe not for Scientology but certainly for Christianity. And this young fellow was not offended by your and txaq's genuine offers of help.

But still he said:

"Despite having spent a lot of time in church during my youth and being quite passionate about my beliefs, today I am an atheist because no matter how comforting some belief is I still can't justify believing in it if it's counterintuitive, improbable and illogical."


[/ QUOTE ]
Can I break in here for a second? I'd just like to point out the correlation between Johnny rejecting God and then struggling to find meaning in his life. I think that's very significant.

Carry on.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is significant, but it doesn't mean the correct course of action for him is to return to a belief in Christian dogmatic practices. It seems to be a common transitory effect for theists becoming rational atheists.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you realize all of that is consistent with what the Bible teaches? It takes you a little while to quench the Holy Spirit, and then soon your heart becomes hard and you won't be able to hear Him anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

everything is consistent with what the bible teaches..

I, for one, had a very different experience...I am not "empty" without god..I lack no "meaning" in the sense that I am content that there is no absolute "meaning"...

god has never spoken to me or "touched" me in any way...and I have made many attempts to "contact" him.

that is not consistent with what is "supposed" to happen..you're supposed to feel empty without god..he is the only way to be truly fulfilled...a relationship with god is the greatest thing...if you speak to god, he speaks back

but you would have an excuse for this..you'd say that I have a "hardened heart" or I am lying to myself...or I don't have a clean heart..or I don't really want to know god.

the bible can "explain" about anything..but so can anything that constantly poisons the well.

a book or person says...this apple is blue,
if you don't see that this apple is blue, there is something wrong with you. (enter "explainations" like the ones of christianity for nonbelievers)

it seems that if a person said, "but wait that apple isn't blue, it's red", you would say, no there must be something wrong with you..you are mistaken..."why?"....because this book or person says so.

there are only two options..seeing things as the book says, or being classified as "wrong".

[CityFan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are absolutely right. The vulture analogy is ridiculous. Maybe not for Scientology but certainly for Christianity. And this young fellow was not offended by your and txaq's genuine offers of help.

But still he said:

"Despite having spent a lot of time in church during my youth and being quite passionate about my beliefs, today I am an atheist because no matter how comforting some belief is I still can't justify believing in it if it's counterintuitive, improbable and illogical."


[/ QUOTE ]
Can I break in here for a second? I'd just like to point out the correlation between Johnny rejecting God and then struggling to find meaning in his life. I think that's very significant.

Carry on.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is significant, but it doesn't mean the correct course of action for him is to return to a belief in Christian dogmatic practices. It seems to be a common transitory effect for theists becoming rational atheists.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you realize all of that is consistent with what the Bible teaches? It takes you a little while to quench the Holy Spirit, and then soon your heart becomes hard and you won't be able to hear Him anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's also what happens when you take a child's blanket away. For a while (s)he misses it, then after a few days (s)he grows up and gets over it.

[chezlaw]

but here is where txag's view has some merit. Arguing for religon because of what will happen after you die is risible and has no benefit, but arguing for religon because of benefits to the living makes sense.

alcohol, dope, jesus; all crutches to helps make you happy. The advantage of religon is if not fundementalist it has few adverse effects, the disadvantage is that for many of us (some might blame intelligence and/or education) believing is impossible and operating under the assumption doesn't make us happy.

So we have to face up to the overwhelming likelyhood that those we love will grow old and die, so will we, and we will join the long history that appeared to be leading up to us.

The good news is that thats no reason to be miserable. If you buy the SMP bible the wisdom of this can be written on one of the blank pages.

chez

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

an logical endstate for a civilization, and in effect, become Gods themselves?


[/ QUOTE ]

As the serpent said to Eve

"You shall be as Gods".

The ultimate hope of the atheist.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

an logical endstate for a civilization, and in effect, become Gods themselves?


[/ QUOTE ]

As the serpent said to Eve

"You shall be as Gods".

The ultimate hope of the atheist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice. Whether God's pre-existing or the onus is on atheists to do the legwork themselves, the conclusion is the same, yeah?

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

an logical endstate for a civilization, and in effect, become Gods themselves?


[/ QUOTE ]

As the serpent said to Eve

"You shall be as Gods".

The ultimate hope of the atheist.

[/ QUOTE ]

of course..atheists base their beliefs and hopes on being something that many don't believe can exist... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

these protective statements in the bible simply poison the well..

they shouldn't be considered by any reasonable person.. even christians...they are of no value

and I know of no atheists who hope to make themselves a god.

[FortunaMaximus]

How unambitious.

[CityFan]

[ QUOTE ]
but here is where txag's view has some merit. Arguing for religon because of what will happen after you die is risible and has no benefit, but arguing for religon because of benefits to the living makes sense.

alcohol, dope, jesus; all crutches to helps make you happy. The advantage of religon is if not fundementalist it has few adverse effects, the disadvantage is that for many of us (some might blame intelligence and/or education) believing is impossible and operating under the assumption doesn't make us happy.

So we have to face up to the overwhelming likelyhood that those we love will grow old and die, so will we, and we will join the long history that appeared to be leading up to us.

The good news is that thats no reason to be miserable. If you buy the SMP bible the wisdom of this can be written on one of the blank pages.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Two problems with this though:

First, why is it not possible to be fully content in the understanding that we will indeed die and rot, that no-one living knows what it will "feel like" to die, and that even if there is some kind of after-life experience it will almost certainly be nothing like that described in religious texts?

Second: Okay, so religion may have no adverse effects. Unless, that is, the religion in question makes threatening prophecies towards those who don't "believe" in it, and either tricks or guilt-trips those considering abandoning it (possibly for their own good) by making obvious predictions about how it will feel to leave it behind. Apparently, that is precisely what Christainity does, particularly as taught to the young.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
As the serpent said to Eve

"You shall be as Gods".

The ultimate hope of the atheist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Few atheists realistically hope for anything of the sort. Even the Kurzweil kooks don't think it will go that far.

But, um, if it were possible to be like gods, of course we would be. Your foreboding isn't getting you anywhere, here. Do a random poll, among Christians even - if you could have a superpower of your choice, what would it be? See how many answer "nothing at all, for a human to be godlike is inherently horrifying."

Wanting to know as much as possible, be capable of as much as possible, be as happy as possible, and live as long as possible isn't some deplorable evil.

[CityFan]

I'd have the power to make any woman instantly fall in love with me.

Actually, just give me a couple of beers and I'll believe that anyway... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

In the past you have stated that the scientific based atheist is really just rationalizing his need to reject God so therefore he is actually the philosphical atheist with a disguise on.


[/ QUOTE ]

I should clarify something. When I talk about motive I'm not intending to use that as an argument for Scripture except in so far as it agrees with what Scripture says. My intention is to get the individual to ask himself about his motives to determine if they are clouding his judgment, affecting his logic. Rationalization is very easy for humans. I try to guard myself against it at all times by examining my own motives.

I may not have been clear about that in the past. I'm willing to discuss and debate these issues without reference to motive. You say the OP is a "scientific" atheist. That can be debated without reference to motive. That's what I mostly try to do.

As I recall, most of my discussion concerning motive with you has been in response to questions you asked me. "Can't someone be objective and an atheist?" That's generally where I get into the motive question. I don't think anyone is objective. But that's a description of my view of human nature. The other issues can be debated without that concern.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Wanting to know as much as possible, be capable of as much as possible, be as happy as possible, and live as long as possible isn't some deplorable evil.


[/ QUOTE ]

God made us godlike. He created us in His image. The temptation for Eve was to become godlike through illegitimate means, independently of God and in opposition to Him. The goal of Christians is to be Christlike. The word itself means "little Christ".

What I mean by the hope of the atheist is to be free and independent, autonomous.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
What I mean by the hope of the atheist is to be free and independent, autonomous.

[/ QUOTE ]

How sinister.

[A_C_Slater]

I don't make poop. My body has a 100% energy consumption utilization rate. This gives me the edge I need to succede.

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
What I mean by the hope of the atheist is to be free and independent, autonomous.

[/ QUOTE ]

many atheists would like the idea of there being a god..even the christian god (even more than most others actually)..

It's not so much that we HOPE to be "free and independent, autonomous."...

more that we believe that we ARE "free and independent, autonomous."

sure it's possible that every nonbeliever doesn't believe in god because they don't want there to be a god, but there is certainly no evidence that this is true..

FWIW, I'll admit that I don't want the christian god, as he is usually depicted, to be real...he seems like a rather cruel being...

but I try my best, just as you say you do, to minimize my biases...

I feel that I have very little bias because if this..because I feel that I am good at distancing myself from what I think is "good", and what I think is true

[David Sklansky]

"I'd just like to point out the correlation between Johnny rejecting God and then struggling to find meaning in his life."

He didn't "reject" God. He decided that he doesn't exist. And its not surprising that you could be correlated with depression.

The bottom line is if ignorance is bliss, is that a good enough reason to choose it? For most people the answer is yes.

[JohnnyHumongous]

[ QUOTE ]
"I'd just like to point out the correlation between Johnny rejecting God and then struggling to find meaning in his life."

He didn't "reject" God. He decided that he doesn't exist. And its not surprising that you could be correlated with depression.

The bottom line is if ignorance is bliss, is that a good enough reason to choose it? For most people the answer is yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty much the case. I think smart inquisitive people are doomed to a certain degree of misery as a result. But at the end of the day I am more satisfied and contented by the fact that I'm not committed to a myth. I'd rather reach truths and understanding in my life even if it costs me "bliss".

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
He didn't "reject" God. He decided that he doesn't exist.

[/ QUOTE ]
To a certain degree, it's the same thing.

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He didn't "reject" God. He decided that he doesn't exist.

[/ QUOTE ]
To a certain degree, it's the same thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

only IF this god exists, and IF he made it clear that he exists.

otherwise it is in no way the same thing

[ QUOTE ]
and IF he made it clear that he exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would hope that even christians could see that this god doesn't make it clear that he exists...

but I have a feeling they'll just continue to argue that these people who can't clearly see that this god exists are simply lying to themselves.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

but here is where txag's view has some merit. Arguing for religon because of what will happen after you die is risible and has no benefit, but arguing for religon because of benefits to the living makes sense.

alcohol, dope, jesus; all crutches to helps make you happy. The advantage of religon is if not fundementalist it has few adverse effects, the disadvantage is that for many of us (some might blame intelligence and/or education) believing is impossible and operating under the assumption doesn't make us happy.

So we have to face up to the overwhelming likelyhood that those we love will grow old and die, so will we, and we will join the long history that appeared to be leading up to us.

The good news is that thats no reason to be miserable. If you buy the SMP bible the wisdom of this can be written on one of the blank pages.

chez


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Two problems with this though:

First, why is it not possible to be fully content in the understanding that we will indeed die and rot, that no-one living knows what it will "feel like" to die, and that even if there is some kind of after-life experience it will almost certainly be nothing like that described in religious texts?

[/ QUOTE ]
It is possible, religon isn't necessary for everyone to prevent unhappiness and it may not be neccessary for anyone. However that's true of everything including sex, family and even <gasp> cricket. However if it makes someone happy [and a sensible argument can be made that religon makes some people happy] then that's a good argument for being religous.

[ QUOTE ]
Second: Okay, so religion may have no adverse effects. Unless, that is, the religion in question makes threatening prophecies towards those who don't "believe" in it, and either tricks or guilt-trips those considering abandoning it (possibly for their own good) by making obvious predictions about how it will feel to leave it behind. Apparently, that is precisely what Christainity does, particularly as taught to the young.


[/ QUOTE ] True, religon can be a bad thing as well. That's true of everything else as well, done wrong sex (not technique but getting disease, unwanted pregnancy, getting caught etc) also makes people unhappy.

It still leaves much merit in the argument that for some people religon helps make them happy, particularly those made unhappy by a lack of self-importance.

chez

[KurtAngle]

Are you familiar with the double slit experiment? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[CityFan]

[ QUOTE ]
True, religon can be a bad thing as well. That's true of everything else as well, done wrong sex (not technique but getting disease, unwanted pregnancy, getting caught etc) also makes people unhappy.

It still leaves much merit in the argument that for some people religon helps make them happy, particularly those made unhappy by a lack of self-importance.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

So we could prescribe religion to the clinically depressed, maybe?

I can see that religion can help some people to find inner peace. That doesn't justify teaching it to children as fact.

In fact, on second thoughts, I don't think it justifies anything at all. Religion is preached as fact to vulnerable people of all ages. If we take the position that it is not fact (and nor is it even plausible) then I think those people would be better off with alternative therapy.

If you could make a man happy for the rest of his life by convincing him he is a tree, would that be an acceptable thing to do? I think not.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
True, religon can be a bad thing as well. That's true of everything else as well, done wrong sex (not technique but getting disease, unwanted pregnancy, getting caught etc) also makes people unhappy.

It still leaves much merit in the argument that for some people religon helps make them happy, particularly those made unhappy by a lack of self-importance.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

So we could prescribe religion to the clinically depressed, maybe?

I can see that religion can help some people to find inner peace. That doesn't justify teaching it to children as fact.

In fact, on second thoughts, I don't think it justifies anything at all. Religion is preached as fact to vulnerable people of all ages. If we take the position that it is not fact (and nor is it even plausible) then I think those people would be better off with alternative therapy.

If you could make a man happy for the rest of his life by convincing him he is a tree, would that be an acceptable thing to do? I think not.

[/ QUOTE ]
I not justifying teaching it to anyone as fact or convincing anyone of anything to make them a happy. I'm justifying the argument that religon may make some people happier.

chez

[CityFan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
True, religon can be a bad thing as well. That's true of everything else as well, done wrong sex (not technique but getting disease, unwanted pregnancy, getting caught etc) also makes people unhappy.

It still leaves much merit in the argument that for some people religon helps make them happy, particularly those made unhappy by a lack of self-importance.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

So we could prescribe religion to the clinically depressed, maybe?

I can see that religion can help some people to find inner peace. That doesn't justify teaching it to children as fact.

In fact, on second thoughts, I don't think it justifies anything at all. Religion is preached as fact to vulnerable people of all ages. If we take the position that it is not fact (and nor is it even plausible) then I think those people would be better off with alternative therapy.

If you could make a man happy for the rest of his life by convincing him he is a tree, would that be an acceptable thing to do? I think not.

[/ QUOTE ]
I not justifying teaching it to anyone as fact or convincing anyone of anything to make them a happy. I'm justifying the argument that religon may make some people happier.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I can accept that. There are no atheists in a foxhole, after all.

I just don't accept it as a justification, at least not for the beast that is Christianity. Even accepting that some kind of spiritual philosophy might be NECESSARY to man, isn't this one just ghastly?

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
True, religon can be a bad thing as well. That's true of everything else as well, done wrong sex (not technique but getting disease, unwanted pregnancy, getting caught etc) also makes people unhappy.

It still leaves much merit in the argument that for some people religon helps make them happy, particularly those made unhappy by a lack of self-importance.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

So we could prescribe religion to the clinically depressed, maybe?

I can see that religion can help some people to find inner peace. That doesn't justify teaching it to children as fact.

In fact, on second thoughts, I don't think it justifies anything at all. Religion is preached as fact to vulnerable people of all ages. If we take the position that it is not fact (and nor is it even plausible) then I think those people would be better off with alternative therapy.

If you could make a man happy for the rest of his life by convincing him he is a tree, would that be an acceptable thing to do? I think not.

[/ QUOTE ]
I not justifying teaching it to anyone as fact or convincing anyone of anything to make them a happy. I'm justifying the argument that religon may make some people happier.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I can accept that. There are no atheists in a foxhole, after all.

I just don't accept it as a justification, at least not for the beast that is Christianity. Even accepting that some kind of spiritual philosophy might be NECESSARY to man, isn't this one just ghastly?

[/ QUOTE ]
It has many variants and some seem benign to me. I don't find the morality of jesus particularly ghastly but agree with Russell that one reason not to be a christian is that so many christians are ghastly.

personally I reckon a zen like attitude is a much better route to happiness but I suspect its a harder route for the unhappy and ego-bothered.

chez

[Lestat]

Your problem is, you haven't found something you are truly passionate about. I also think you are being too constrictive. Forget work for a sec...

Are you saying that there is nothing in life you get enjoyment from? No hobby that fulfills you? Again, forget making money or doing something that others would think is responsible or even reasonable. There is NOTHING you can do that sates your appetite and leaves you feeling fulfilled?

If that's the case, I'd say you suffer from plain old depression and should see a doctor. But before doing that, you should spend some time thinking about it. Think of things in the past you did. What left you feeling good about yourself? It could be charity, skiing, music, hiking, building a model airplane, ANYTHING!

Get a piece of paper and go crazy! Imagine for a moment there is nothing you can't do! Sailing an ocean, climbing Everest, building a fortune 500 company. Etc., etc., etc. If you can honestly think of nothing, you need professional help.

[Jasper109]

OP,

It took me 20 years longer than it has taken you to reach the same state of mind.

I'm not sure if I'm in awe of you, or feel sorry for you. Probably a bit of both.

All I can suggest is that you only get one shot at this "life" thing, so try to have fun every day and don't necessarily do things that are "expected" of you.

Unfortunately there is no deeper meaning despite what some of the brainwashed idiots in this forum continue to spew. Go out, have fun, get laid, travel, do nice things for people once in a while, contribute to society a bit.

That's really all there is to it dude.