.02 nl: AA vs sudden push on river

[Archon_Wing]

Felt kind of nitty this hand:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

MP1 ($1.95)
MP2 ($3.17)
CO ($3.27)
Button ($3.18)
SB ($2.98)
BB ($3.98)
Hero ($3.57)
UTG+1 ($1.26)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. UTG+1 posts a blind of $0.03.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.08</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls $0.08, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls $0.06.

Flop: ($0.28) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.25</font>, MP2 calls $0.25, BB folds.

Turn: ($0.78) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.5</font>, MP2 calls $0.50.

River: ($1.78) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets $2.34 (All-In)</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $4.12

I was hoping to check/call on the river, but suddenly villian, who's just been calling down suddenly decides to get aggressive. Now, I do understand at these limits people will push with all kinds of random crap, but from what I've seen he usually has a hand in a big pot.

I don't know, what do you guys think? Help a newb out here.;p

[lsaw2]

I'd raise slightly bigger PF.
Bet the turn harder, then dependant on reads I might well fold the river. The river card is horrible for you it brings in all the draws from the flop and more. Not a good card for you.

[ajmargarine]

Remember to adjust your PFR amount when you have posters in the hand. Treat them as limpers.

I think the hand is played OK. Flop and turn are good. River, meh. Checking is OK. With his overbet you have to be ahead alot to call. I can see him having a hand like 98 or 56 and have you beat. Probably an OK c/f.

[Archon_Wing]

Thanks for the quick replies

Since I was UTG, I forgot about posters. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Do you think there's any value in trying to bet around $1 on the river? Perhaps he might have a straight but is afraid of a flush or higher straight?

[ajmargarine]

If you bet $1 on the river, you pot commit yourself if he raises. One pair, messed up board, your hand's not so big by the river. I don't mind a check on the end.

[Archon_Wing]

Ok, cool. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[DannieUke]

Wicked -- a fellow player of Parsimony Poker.

I would want to play this hand as you did -- but I'm now in the late stages of that disease that prevents dropping bullets...

I'd put the villain on K/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif -- but there are enough possible hands that could crack your aces. So, it likely makes sense to have put down your hand. You'd have to win the SD about 60% of the time to make this call profitable...

On the flip side -- at the low, low, low-stakes tables -- the "cost" of playing will often dictate donk behavior. To you, the thoughtful player and 2+2 disciple, this is a huge (~90BB) pot that can't be so easily let go. To him, it cost less than the price of a can of soda for the opportunity to bust you with a flush draw.

This would be where I'd want to consider whatever stats I had on the vilain. Got any?

[Big Poppa Smurf]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd put the villain on K/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

why?

[ QUOTE ]
To you, the thoughtful player and 2+2 disciple, this is a huge (~90BB) pot that can't be so easily let go. To him, it cost less than the price of a can of soda for the opportunity to bust you with a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is not good thinking

[DannieUke]

Since I theoretically folded, I'd have to put him on a hand that beat mine. K8s was just a guess that might match his previous calls, i.e.: flops top pair and backs into a flush draw.

Why is the relative weight of the stakes not good thinking? I mean, it's not good reasoning for the astute player -- we try to rationalize probablilties in order to act in a positive EV manner.

I guess it doesn't matter what their motive for being that loose and careless. But don't forget, this is 0.01/0.02. Your BB/100 would have to be an unimaginably high number to make this pursuit anything but entertainment value. When I see yet another maniac saddle up to the table with his five sheet for an hour's fun -- cranking out VPIPs in the mid-80s and higher -- I think it's my responsibility as a good player to recognize the dead money before someone else does...

More clearly: I'm not saying one should play like that, but a number of loose people do.

My excuse for being there is that if I'm gonna climb up the ladder, I start at the first rung. I'm pretty sure that some people at the penny table do not have that same motive...

[Big Poppa Smurf]

dannie,

putting him on exactly k8s is silly. you should try to put villain on a range of hands and assign probabilities to them, like straight 75%, bluff 25% for a simple example.

as for the second part, i think we may have misunderstood each other. relative stakes shouldn't matter because as you move up donks will play the same way. lots of complete donks play as high as they can, and will make stupid bluffs, put lots of money in on bad situations, etc. i wasn't trying to be offensive or anything or make fun of you for playing these limits

[DannieUke]

Hey -- no worries...

If anyone's going to be making fun of me at the penny table, it's me...

Having zero online experience with stakes higher than two cents, I can only theorize that the lower your real money commitment, the more likely you are to attract the beginner. Fortunately, as you point out, donks will float to top of their credit limit -- otherwise they'd all be with me at the two-cent table.

There are very strange exceptions at these tables -- just like at every level, players multitable to increase their ROI. But there are a handful of people who simul up to a dozen 0.01/0.02 tables and, frankly, it freaks me out. (Why not play .10/.25?) Even with an unthinkably high long-term PTBB/100 of say 50 -- which isn't the case for most nut peddlers -- that juggernaut effort yields a mere $1.00 USD per hour per table. Maybe that's enough profit for them, but that would barely cover what I would have to consume in ephedrine to play at that level of concentration...

And you're completely correct -- I have no idea what this nit has in the hole. I should have said top pair/top kicker instead of exemplifing it as K8s. Either way, it would appear to me that poor Archon is beat...

[VorShot]

[ QUOTE ]
My excuse for being there is that if I'm gonna climb up the ladder, I start at the first rung. I'm pretty sure that some people at the penny table do not have that same motive...

[/ QUOTE ]
Just to add to this...

I started my climb on the now dead to US players, Everest.

They have free limit SNGs where the winner wins .05. That's right... a nickle. So i won 4 of those, and took my .20 to the .02/.04 limit tables.

I managed to grind to $5.
That's right...$5.

$5 went to the $2 NL buyin tables that are on Everest. From that point, i stayed there till i got to $100.
$100 moved to Titan Poker (which i don't know if US players can still go here) in the $5 NL rooms, until i got to $200.

Now at $200, i play $10 NL buyin at Full Tilt and am currently at $390.


Starting at the bottom and climbing...nothing wrong with that.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

vorshot,

that is very impressive. the only problem is if you can afford to start at 10 or 25nl, you skip the weeks or months of grinding up to that point, so you can win a lot more money. i imagine you would also progress more quickly along the learning curve

[VorShot]

Jesus Ferg did it with $1. I wanted to try and beat that /images/graemlins/smile.gif

In all serious though, if you never had to buy in, you could never lose money. Every day i play, i play with someone else's money. When i have a loosing session, it really doesn't bother me at all, because i know that i climbed to here, and i'll be fine.

To be honest, i've also been living kinda paycheck to paycheck (which is why i withdrew all my online bankroll) and because i was unable to deposit for a month there, i decided to start this.

By the time i could afford to buy back online...i didn't need to.

[Scottery]

You played it fine, make it more pf in this game though.

[Archon_Wing]

More discussion? :P Cool.

[ QUOTE ]
Wicked -- a fellow player of Parsimony Poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't know what that means.
[ QUOTE ]

On the flip side -- at the low, low, low-stakes tables -- the "cost" of playing will often dictate donk behavior. To you, the thoughtful player and 2+2 disciple, this is a huge (~90BB) pot that can't be so easily let go. To him, it cost less than the price of a can of soda for the opportunity to bust you with a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're actualy correct in some sense. I have friends that are always like "Why wouldn't you play that hand for 2 cents??" However, I don't want to just beat the penny tables. ;p I've seen players quite bad up to 50 NL. (I played there because I was trying to Party's cashout restricted bonus (No more of that anymore :/) -- at that point I couldn't play micro limits ;/ That's also how I got pokertracker. /images/graemlins/wink.gif) There are obviously thinking players spread around, but it's pretty much donk city. But anyhow, it's a good idea to develop habits on playing well. One cannot beat decent players if they can't play well against bad players. So I am quite aware that grinding from penny tables could be considered a waste of time, one could get a job, but it's also an oppurtunity to learn how to play against weak competition and at mininal risk. Plus br management. ;p
[ QUOTE ]

This would be where I'd want to consider whatever stats I had on the vilain. Got any?

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite donkish (63/6/1.25) But that makes the push a bit more shocking. When passive players make moves like this, they probaly do have a real hand. ;p

[Archon_Wing]

[ QUOTE ]
But there are a handful of people who simul up to a dozen 0.01/0.02 tables and, frankly, it freaks me out. (Why not play .10/.25?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Bankroll requirements do not change with multitabling unless you play so many tables that you can't keep your stacks, but you'd probaly be underbankrolled anyways. They probaly don't have the 500-600 for 25 nl.

It's a good idea to play as many tables as you're capable of to maximize your potential. Of course, this does not mean 12 for everyone. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Perk76]

Friends of mine play some .1/.2 sessions periodically for fun at PS. I try to run 65/40/5 with no consistency on raising. Its fun, wild, and surprising easy to make a profit. I joke with a friend that I wish I had the bankroll to play at the higher levels with no worries about money, and the chips are just chips.

In the OP's regular hand, you obviously are not beating anything, and thats the beauty of this level. You can put certain players on a pretty easy range of hands, hit your 2pair/trips/straight/flush and get paid off by overbetting. I think you can sit with 250bb's? $5.00 in this game?