AJo, first hand...Played this horrible, and need street by street adv.

[VorShot]

<font color="blue"> Ok, so i just posted blinds, posted them in MP. AJo seemed like a good hand to raise for a "right off the street" hand. I feel like i played this hand horrible. I shouldn't have gotten that crazy with a hand like AJo, but i feel like raising and folding was so weak.

What i'm looking for is comments on all streets (how i should have played it on each street &amp; how i should play each street as played.)

Those of you that say fold preflop, is this because you play tight, or because AJo isn't really a hand you wanna get involved with?

Thanks.</font>


Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $9.95
Hero: $10
CO: $19.80
Button: $1.15
SB: $3.90
BB: $6.15

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $0.45</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to $0.8</font>, 4 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $3.1</font>, CO calls.
<font color="blue"> AJo is a hand i normally just fold preflop, but since i'm going to have to play it, i figured bringing it in for a raise is the only way to play it.
I got Mini raised and everyone folded to heads up. I figured i could help define the hands by raising it yet again, not to mention, if he raises again, i can let this hand go.
Should i have just folded? If i was going to reraise, was this reraise to big (i bet pot here)? The reason i decided to reraise was because i was OOP and i didn't want to call. (Folding or raising seemed the only plays here)But folding to a mini raise just seemed weak here.</font>


Flop: 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif ($6.45, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $3</font>, CO calls.
<font color="blue"> So the flop is out, and i'm figuring I shut down MOST hands here that didn't improve here, which should help narrow down the range again.
Should i instead just have check/folded this flop? I really can't see being ahead of any hand that can call my preflop raise at this point.</font>

Turn: 3/images/graemlins/club.gif ($12.45, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.
<font color="blue"> A brick falls on the turn and i check, and he checks behind. There's no real draw here, so taking a free card to draw seems out of the question.
If he had a hand like AQ, i couldn't see him checking behind here, and a set bets here i suspect as well. It seems like he has a mid strength hand and wants a cheap showdown.</font>

River: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($12.45, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero is all-in $4.35</font>
<font color="blue"> So an ace hits, and i'm ahead of just about everything that's went this far unless someone played AK bad (not that i played this AJ well) So i go ahead and shove the rest in. I didn't include CO's action because all he has left is fold or call, and to be honest, since i'm all in, it doesn't matter.


Comments on all streets PLEASE! </font>

[lacrymosa]

I wouldn't re-raise preflop. AJo isn't a hand you want to take to war because of domination. If you're going to c-bet make it 3/4 or 2/3 pot. I wouldn't double barrel the turn either (leak?). I think the river is a given considering stack sizes and pot size.

[svidrigailov]

Preflop - I will sometimes raise, sometimes fold AJ in UTG+1 depending on how the table is playing. If I'm likely to get tons of callers (been raising a lot, etc.) this is closer to a fold. It may be one of the few hands I would fold even to a min. 3-bet, especially OOP. If villain is a poor player I might call though.

Flop I'm check-folding. You might fold AK with a c-bet but in my experience players at NL10 call way too much even unimproved. Turn check I agree with as played.

River I guess you're ahead of JJ, AT... dunno really. I'd check and probably call getting like 4:1. My river play sucks though. Actually wouldn't be surprised to see AK here.

s

[Panthro]

Meh, not a fan of risking 30% of your stack OOP with a dominated hand like AJo; And after cbetting you're basically pot committed. You don't HAVE to make a move every time you get raised (or minraised).

Also, heed this advice...at MicroLimits, NOBODY folds to a re-re-raise after they've re-raised. NOBODY. So make sure you have a hand when you go crazy preflop. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[CLB]

PF, I think your raise is fine (I play mostly FR, but AJ seems like an OK raising hand 6 handed). Once the CO re-raises I'd probably let it go. You'll be OOP for the rest of the hand and often times you'll be outkicked if an A hits. I do prefer your raise to a call, but I'm folding this almost 100% of time, especially without reads.

On the flop, your bet seems weak. I'd bet closer to 3/4 of the pot. What could he have called PF with that he would fold to that bet now? AK is the only reasonable hand that he could play that way, and often times even AK is called your less than 1/2 pot bet. I'd probably bet it harder here and give up on the turn if I'm called.

The turn check is fine. His turn check makes me wonder. He may have JJ or AK, it seems like AQ, KK, AA would all bet here. Could be slowplaying a set of Qs.

The A on the river wouldn't make me feel a whole lot better, but I think you played it right. JJ and KK are the only hands that stuck with you this long that you're ahead of now. At the same time, I probably wouldn't fold if he puts you all in here, which means you might as well bet it yourself since hands you beat (KK, maybe JJ) may still call but won't bet it for you if you check.

[VorShot]

So, the only REAL bad thing i did was play this hand.

What would you have changed if i had AK?

[demon102]

Ur oop and have AJ, its an ok hand to raise preflop but coming over the top of a reraise without a read on this player is just spewing chips. If opp just called then c-betting is a good move. If u had AK here then thats pretty much exactly how I would have played it, I think there is a better way though. Playing AK just like u played ur hand oop here seems like a leak in my game sometimes and I am now trying to find a better way as building a large pot oop sucks and can cost money.

[svidrigailov]

Re: "What would you have changed if i had AK?"

Good question... I seldom 4-bet preflop (pretty much only vs. calling stations with AA/KK, don't know if this is good but it works alright). With that in mind calling the 3-bet is my standard play.

Flop depends on villains 3-betting range. For many players I find its something TT+/AQ/AK, so playing missed AK in this situation is tough since they will call a flop bet or want to get to showdown a lot. Honestly, I probably check-fold flop expecting a bet postflop to be at least called a majority of the time.

I'd be interested to hear how others might play it. Playing unpaired AK OOP vs. any decent opponent is something I don't do without some sort of big draw (FD + gutshot or overs). Even then I have trouble.

Turn &amp; river I think play basically the same way with AK here (CLB's logic seems sound for riv. push).

s

[ChipStorm]

Early mistakes multiply, and that preflop 4-bet was a doozy.

Your open raise was fine, but when CO reraises you must call or fold. His raise is pathetic, so calling isn't terrible, but I'd still fold. As CLB says, the rest of the hand is just going to be uncomfortable, unless you flop 2-pair or better. Your 4-bet made the hand for stacks, which is the last thing you want.

As played, I check/fold flop and turn, and check/call river. OOP w/ AJo, I'm playing small ball.

[VorShot]

So had i called the .40 preflop, and stuck a raise on the flop, would that have been a better play?

AKs, i would have played the hand the same as i played AJ here.

I'm starting to wonder if i had AK if it would be spew to play this hand like this, even though i think that's my current standard line for AK.

Maybe i should just call and see if i connect and play the hand from there.

[VorShot]

I decided to play AK keeping this AJ hand in mind.
Is this better?

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $10.90
UTG+1: $6.20
Hero: $11.05
Button: $10.40
SB: $14.10
BB: $9.90

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $0.45</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $1.2</font>, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($3.75, 3 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $2</font>, 2 folds.
Uncalled bets: $2 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $3.75

[Big Poppa Smurf]

i don't like the flop donk in hand 2 at all

edit: so check/fold should be your line, most villains at low stakes have super tight 3betting ranges

[VorShot]

[ QUOTE ]
flop donk

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this mean?

[Big Poppa Smurf]

a donk is when you get raised or re-raised preflop and then lead into the preflop raiser

edit: why did you bet the flop?
donk also means donkey as in a fish, but that's not the usage here

[VorShot]

Well i figured i showed strength preflop, even if i did call the 3-bet preflop, i could still have a hand like JJ. And if he raised a hand like AQ, i do have the better hand.

If i get called here, i can assume i'm beat short of getting an A or K on the turn.

Is check/fold really the only good line here? I feel like calling preflop and then betting into the preflop raiser is one of those things that no one really knows what it means.

I normally do it as either a bluff, or a mid strength hand.

(say a hand like 64 on a flop of K64. I don't want any cards to come cheap (like another king or a 5.)

Should i have instead check/raise?

I didn't have a real solid read on this guy, but he had 3-bet twice before and i figured that meant unless he was getting hit with the deck, he was 3-betting light.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

vorshot,

his preflop range is like JJ+,ak/maybe aq+. think about the hands you 3bet, many villains 3bet with less, when flops come like this it's usually just time to give up.

you should bet into pfr's when you flop strong hands like two pair, sets, etc, or huge draws, this way when they raise with their big hand you can 3bet them all in.

[VorShot]

Calling AK preflop for 1.2 (.75 reraise) and then going check/fold?

I feel like this line is spew and i don't want to say you're not right...just that i don't understand what makes it right.

Would it be to weak/nittish (i think i used that term correct) to fold a hand like AK oop to a 3-better since 2/3s of the time check/fold seems to be the right line when if i'm in position, i can either try and float or buy two cards with a bet.

I think this situation is a hand i have a couple leaks, and if i can find +EV lines, it should help my game a lot.

[VorShot]

BTW, i ended up taking this guy a few hands later
Our 3-betting friend is in the CO this hand...


Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $4.75
Hero: $14.50
CO: $10.35
Button: $15.10
SB: $8.85
BB: $10.75

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $0.35</font>, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: 9/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($1.15, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $1.15</font>, CO calls, SB folds.

Turn: 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($3.45, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $2.5</font>, CO calls.

River: Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($8.45, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $5</font>, CO calls.

Results:
Final pot: $18.45

CO shows K6o?!

[VorShot]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling AK preflop for 1.2 (.75 reraise) and then going check/fold?

I feel like this line is spew and i don't want to say you're not right...just that i don't understand what makes it right.

Would it be to weak/nittish (i think i used that term correct) to fold a hand like AK oop to a 3-better since 2/3s of the time check/fold seems to be the right line when if i'm in position, i can either try and float or buy two cards with a bet.

I think this situation is a hand i have a couple leaks, and if i can find +EV lines, it should help my game a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bumping for this question
(and the fact that i'm headed to bed so i'll have to check in the morning.)

[Big Poppa Smurf]

do you agree with the 3betting range i gave for villain? basically if you lead there you are going to get clobbered by worse hands, possible floated, sometimes when you hit you won't be good, and you will find yourself playing lots of big pots behind and small pots when ahead

[brian8065]

In isolation I really don't have a problem with any of your play. If done correctly, I would bet if you do this 100 times, you would end up winning money or near break even. When you do lose, you have set up an interesting image at the table.

My biggest problem with it is when you did it. To make a play like this you would want to pick a time when you are up against tight players who are willing to fold good hands. From what you have posted you really didn't know the table.

I have read a lot of posts in the past, (and I have started a post), about why a bluff didn't work. This is the same thing. I believe picking your spots is the most important factor in making a move like this.

When I started I said when done correctly. These moves are best done premeditatedly.


I also see that you have made this move and now are second guessing yourself. You have made your justification for every move, and I buy it. I am guessing that it didn't work. It is easy to make a move like this, or a bluff, and critisize yourself when it doesn't work, but not think about it when it does. Everyone should be making moves like this from time to time. Sometimes they will work, sometimes they won't.

[ymu]

Preflop in hand 1 looks horrible without a read. First mistake was posting OOP in a 6-handed game. Why are you paying an extra blind to see a hand in a terrible position when you only have to wait a couple of minutes to get dealt in normally?

For the rest of the hand, it's all been said above, apart from (AFAICS) that a pot-sized reraise preflop would be $2.1, not £3.1 (there's $1.75 in the pot by the time you call his mini-raise of .35, so a PSR is $2.10).

[orange]

PF looks pretty bad. I would probably just call his miniraise, no point in 4-betting. AJ is an awful hand to do it with as well, mainly because you can't expect to improve much in a 4-bet pot (you are dominated throughly). I don't mind the inital raise PF, but just call his miniraise (or just fold PF sometimes).

I think that the flop is okay, I would typically bet maybe $4 but it doesn't matter too much. You don't have to bet as hard in 4-bet pots because the pot is already huge. I might just c/f the flop as well.

I think river is fine (I guess, given the way we got there). We might get a call from a disgruntled KK or whatever. I despise PF really the most, and think thats where you really messed up the hand.

[VorShot]

(Just in case you're wondering...)
Hand one, he called and i beat his JJ.
Hand two, they all folded and i won there too.

Something i'm wondering about though,

Would it be to weak/nittish (i think i used that term correct) to fold a hand like AK oop to a 3-better since 2/3s of the time check/fold seems to be the right line post flop oop, but when if i'm in position, i can either try and float or buy two cards with a bet.

I think this situation is a hand i have a couple leaks, and if i can find +EV lines, it should help my game a lot.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
(Just in case you're wondering...)
Hand one, he called and i beat his JJ.
Hand two, they all folded and i won there too.

Something i'm wondering about though,

Would it be to weak/nittish (i think i used that term correct) to fold a hand like AK oop to a 3-better since 2/3s of the time check/fold seems to be the right line post flop oop, but when if i'm in position, i can either try and float or buy two cards with a bet.

I think this situation is a hand i have a couple leaks, and if i can find +EV lines, it should help my game a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

What you should be taking from Hand 1 -- "Wow, I was really dominated. I sucked out on him SOOO bad. I had 3 live cards. I played that sooo horribly but what a lucky river. I guess there's a reason I shouldn't be playing AJ this way... I can't count on that miracle 3 outer on the river everytime."

[VorShot]

Yeah, because i havn't said in every thread that i played AJo horrible.

But thanks for adding.

What i'm looking for are answers to the question i keep asking.

Folding AK (not AJ...AK) oop to a 3-bet. To weak?

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, because i havn't said in every thread that i played AJo horrible.

But thanks for adding.

What i'm looking for are answers to the question i keep asking.

Folding AK (not AJ...AK) oop to a 3-bet. To weak?

[/ QUOTE ]

That really depends on the opponent and stack sizes. For instance, if a loose shortstack 3 bets me, I push AK everytime.

If a guy with 300 hands with stats like 8%/3% 3 bets me, I have no problem folding.

[VorShot]

[ QUOTE ]
First mistake was posting OOP in a 6-handed game. Why are you paying an extra blind to see a hand in a terrible position when you only have to wait a couple of minutes to get dealt in normally?

[/ QUOTE ]

This just isn't as big a deal to me. Normally, i post in a weird pos, and that might make someone say, "he must not be very good, he can't wait one hand."

I normally also protect my post. Reason AJo got raised preflop is, 72o would have been raised preflop here. (Though i wouldn't have 4-bet most hands)

If i get to showdown, it sets my imaige from the start. I normally play a small pot...this time, i just happened to play a huge one. It normally doesn't happen like that.

I hate the fact that i played AJo for so much, and i think it was just one of those Fancy Play Syndroms that came over me. The advice i get from hands like this....the understanding WHY this was such a horrible play (which i already knew) is what makes my game better. AJo i know i played bad...but had this been AK, would it have been any better?

Would this have been a good line for AK? I'm starting to think not. Everyone always says, reraise OOP, take the hand down...i'm starting to think call/fold is better options...i'd love input...which is what leads me to the question i've been asking again and again.

[ QUOTE ]
For the rest of the hand, it's all been said above, apart from (AFAICS) that a pot-sized reraise preflop would be $2.1, not £3.1 (there's $1.75 in the pot by the time you call his mini-raise of .35, so a PSR is $2.10).

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless Full Tilt's bet pot button doesn't work..that's what i used this time.

[ QUOTE ]
do you agree with the 3betting range i gave for villain?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your right. The range for 3-betting at this level is normally EXACTLY what you say.

[VorShot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, because i havn't said in every thread that i played AJo horrible.

But thanks for adding.

What i'm looking for are answers to the question i keep asking.

Folding AK (not AJ...AK) oop to a 3-bet. To weak?

[/ QUOTE ]

That really depends on the opponent and stack sizes. For instance, if a loose shortstack 3 bets me, I push AK everytime.

If a guy with 300 hands with stats like 8%/3% 3 bets me, I have no problem folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about a hand like AQ.

If he's a loose player with a full buyin? (AK or AQ)
Does he have to be a shortstack as well for you to feel good about it? (AK or AQ)

[kurto]

With a loose shortstack I'm pushing. If we're both deep, I call his reraise and see how the flop goes. (I would also take position into account)

Against a loose/aggressive, I'm not necessarily playing AQ much different then AK... I also take into account they're position and tendency to 3 bet... (for instance, If 2 people limped, I raised with AQ and someone in the small blind reraised me, I give them more credit)