**uNL Concept of the week: Week 2, 3-betting light:**

[Dan Bitel]

NL is a complex game. We all know this. Sure, you get 2 cards, but the game is far more than just the 2 in your hand and the 5 on the board. For the next few weeks, uNL is going to have a concept of the week thread discussing a certain concept or theory in NL Hold'em.

In this thread you should post HH's showing situations where the concept was applied effectively as well as examples of poor usage of the concept. Also, please debate over various aspects of the concept and it's pro's and con's.

__________________________________________________ ___

<font color="blue"> Week 2, 3-betting light </font>


What is 3-betting light?

Firstly, I guess, we have to establish what a 3-bet is. Its a term used here to describe preflop (although can also describe post flop). And it is basically just a reraise. So an example is if UTG raises to 4BB and I then in UTG+1 reraise to 12BB, that would be a 3-bet.

OK, next, what is the "light" part about? Well, most players when they start to play poker to a decentish level tend to only reraise (3-bet) very strong hands preflop. Something like QQ+ and sometimes AK and that's about it. 3-betting light means that you do it with some weaker hands as well, like AQ, 66, 78s etc etc.



Why do we 3-bet light?

Theres a few reasons here. The main 2 though are for image/shania/metagame and b/c cbets = $$$$$$.

I'm sure every1 says that pushing a combo draw is so good because now you can play your sets the same way and get looked up light. Now I'm sorry, but this is really a bit of BS. Good players realise exactly what you were doing, so they will think nothing of it. And bad players don't fold TP+ anyway. Not to mention that people are still too scared to play their sets mega fast a lot of the time anyway.

BUT when you 3bet light, it REALLY REALLY affects the way villains view you. When you showdown 79s after 3betting preflop, it make you look like a maniac, BUT they still have no idea how to respond. They start to call you down a lot lighter (so obv you have to readjust your frequencies)

Now onto the cbet=$$$ point. You know how when you raise preflop and cbet the flop normally, you get looked up by bottom pair, gutshots etc. All sorts of trash, after all, you have AK, right? BUT, in rr pots, things work differently. Every1 puts you on AA all of a sudden. So, they call preflop b/c they think they have implied odds and they try and get a good flop with their 78s or their 22. But they c/f the flop all the time unless they flop a set or 2pair or whatever.



Important note on cbeting in reraised pots:

DO NOT BET AS MUCH AS YOU WOULD DO IN A NORMAL POT! Your cbets in reraised pots should be between 1/2 pot and 2/3 pot, NOT more. The reasons for this is that normally you either have air as you're 3-betting light and so we dont have to take it down as often if we bet less. OR we have a very good hand, and due to pot/stack size ratio, we can get AI very easily by not betting all that much.

Who to 3-bet light, with what hands and in what position?

I can't stress how important reads are when 3-betting light. You firstly need to know how light some1 is raising. Theres not point 3betting light, if the guy who raised is a 11/3 preflop type, or even a 60/5 preflop type. The typed you want to go for are the 30/20 types, or even the 22/17 TAGs. Although a 70/50 player will raise too lightly, he'll also be calling raises to light and not folding to cbets, so he's not a good person to 3bet light.

Also, try to get a read on what their calling ranges of 3bets are and how they play postflop after calling. If they call a lot preflop and play fit or fold postflop, 3bet these guys. If they 4bet light and c/r bluff a lot of flops with a good frequency, dont 3bet lighgt these guys.

This is mainly common sence, but is SOOO important.

The hands you should be 3betting with are ones that CAN win you a big pot. So 78s, 33 etc. Also, hands that have good showdown value, like AQ, KQs etc.

Position is also quite important. Remeber that people raise way looser on the button that UTG etc. Also, when you have position, you can check behind some flops for pot control etc.




Anything Else?

One of the keys to 3-betting light is playing well is rr pots. This needs reads. You need to understand pot control and your image well. I really recomment that you just have a go and practice makes perfect. Maybe drop down a level if you're a bit scared. And if you need some help on hands in rr pots, just pots them, or PM a few to some1 you respect, and I's sure they'll help you out


__________________________________________________


Here is where we are supposed to put example hands. But the beuaty of 3betting light is that we make most our money when every1 folds preflop or when they fold to a cbet on the flop, so theres littly point me posting those. Instead I will post a few hands that I won BECAUSE I 3bet light. But all, feel free to post hands you won or lost:

This guy is a 23/16 TAG, who I had been 3betting light the whole time, and had finally tilted him:

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $214.90
UTG+1: $142
CO: $218.55
Button: $343.10
SB: $147
Hero: $484.30

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG calls, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $9</font>, SB calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $38</font>, 2 folds, SB calls.

Flop: 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif ($87, 2 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $109</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB calls all-in $109</font>.

Turn: 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($305, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $305)


River: K/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($305, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $305)


Results:
Final pot: $305
<font color="#ffffff">SB showed 9d 8d</font>
<font color="#ffffff">Hero showed Th Jh</font>


Note quite how bad his preflop call is. If I have a big hand, he's screwed, if I have a badish hand, I can still flop better than him and if he doesnt hit the flop (he only hits 1 in 3 times) he's folding to my cbet.


This one is also vs a 22/16 type TAG. I think even a 2p2er. This is a classic example of some1 playing badly in rr pots. Sure I have AA here, but if I wasn't rr 56s and 22 all day, I doubt he would play his hand the same way:

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $42
CO: $254.90
Button: $59.10
SB: $198
Hero: $201.70

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $6</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $18</font>, SB calls.

Flop: T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif ($36, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $25</font>, SB calls.

Turn: 6/images/graemlins/club.gif ($86, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $65</font>, SB calls.

River: 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($216, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero is all-in $93.7</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB calls all-in $90</font>.
Uncalled bets: $3.7 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $399.7
<font color="#ffffff">Hero showed Ad As</font>
<font color="#ffffff">SB mucks Jh Tc</font>


Lastly:

Here's 2 more links on 3-betting light:

By AJFenix (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Board=mlplnl&amp;Number=5615820&amp;Sea rchpage=1&amp;Main=5615820&amp;Words=-%26quot%3BRE%3A%26quot%3B+AJFenix&amp;topic=&amp;Search=tr ue#Post5615820)

By CTS (http://cts687.livejournal.com/#cts68714591)

[orange]

SSNL Jam/db/etc thread on 3-betting (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=5613306&amp;page=0&amp;fpart=1&amp;v c=1)

dan bright and the real blinds (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=7833218&amp;page=1&amp;fpart=all &amp;vc=1&amp;nt=2)

Okay, here are two links that might help. The second one doesn't have to really do with 3-betting as a main point, but rather that the button is the real blind, not the $ you put in. This thought should be taken into account when 3-betting light (your position). sometimes, it isn't as necessary to 3-bet as light in position (as written by dan in his post) as you negate some of your control of the pot when rr-ing. Thats not to say that you shouldnt still be 3-betting light on the button, but that you should maybe take into account what type of hand/opponent/flow your table is.

Don't really have many hands atm, but our next week's topic should be 4-betting light /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[EMc]

thanks DB

[MortenTA]

vnh - gonna try this /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Yaboosh]

Another topic that covers a very very useful tool but can easily be misunderstood and cost people tons of monies.

Be sure to read over this one a few times and understand that this is a heavily situational play that requires some specific conditions, just like floating.

[ama0330]

SHHHHHHHH!!!!!

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
SHHHHHHHH!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]
seriosuly this is gonna lose me soooo much money. using this strategy against regs/semi regs at 50nl works sooo well. np db

[carnivalhobo]

[ QUOTE ]
Another topic that covers a very very useful tool but can easily be misunderstood and cost people tons of monies.

Be sure to read over this one a few times and understand that this is a heavily situational play that requires some specific conditions, just like floating.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree totally, this is a real easy way to light money on fire vs calling station types often found at uNL.

nice post though DB.

[Imrahil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Another topic that covers a very very useful tool but can easily be misunderstood and cost people tons of monies.

Be sure to read over this one a few times and understand that this is a heavily situational play that requires some specific conditions, just like floating.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree totally, this is a real easy way to light money on fire vs calling station types often found at uNL.

nice post though DB.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why you don't do it against guys who are 60/0/.2

[Yaboosh]

We are not questioning the applicability of DB's post. We are questioning some people here and how well they will read his post. You are right, DB did talk about who to do this against, but this is something that many will gloss over.

[Imrahil]

[ QUOTE ]
We are not questioning the applicability of DB's post. We are questioning some people here and how well they will read his post. You are right, DB did talk about who to do this against, but this is something that many will gloss over.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is why I am restating it /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[carnivalhobo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Another topic that covers a very very useful tool but can easily be misunderstood and cost people tons of monies.

Be sure to read over this one a few times and understand that this is a heavily situational play that requires some specific conditions, just like floating.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree totally, this is a real easy way to light money on fire vs calling station types often found at uNL.

nice post though DB.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why you don't do it against guys who are 60/0/.2

[/ QUOTE ]

there are plenty of calling stations with stats 25/15/3

[Imrahil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Another topic that covers a very very useful tool but can easily be misunderstood and cost people tons of monies.

Be sure to read over this one a few times and understand that this is a heavily situational play that requires some specific conditions, just like floating.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree totally, this is a real easy way to light money on fire vs calling station types often found at uNL.

nice post though DB.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why you don't do it against guys who are 60/0/.2

[/ QUOTE ]

there are plenty of calling stations with stats 25/15/3

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't that make their AF smaller?

[carnivalhobo]

im not talking about people that call call call every street, but there are people with tag stats that will call you down right (be it correct or not) if you 3bet them like this. I want to be 3betting light against people who open light but then give up, not people who open light, then call and see a showdown with a pair of 9s. i want a guy who can fold QQ if i 3bet him and lead a K high flop.

[Dan Bitel]

Yaboosh and carnivalhobo,

you are 100% correct. This is a concept that CAN lose you a lot if you misunderstand and misapply it. I strongly recommend that every1 reads the 2 links I posted and the 2 orange did too. And reread my post too. And still, make ure you have reads when doing this. And like I say, maybe even move down when trying this stuff out.

As you move up and try to become a better player, these concepts are definitely very important, but do them properly

[EMc]

These concept threads are meant to expand your game in certain areas and reenforce the ABC's of the game in others. Next week will probably be something more ABC.

[Dan Bitel]

ed,

i think pot control would be a really good idea

[Dave I]

[ QUOTE ]
ed,

i think pot control would be a really good idea

[/ QUOTE ]

[Yaboosh]

Especially the idea that pot control is more than just keeping the pot small...

[Shaddux]

At what limits will concepts like 3-betting light become necessary?

db: I understand that such concepts are largely dependent on opponents, image, etc., but generally speaking, do you do this often at 200NL? How about at 100NL?

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
At what limits will concepts like 3-betting light become necessary?

db: I understand that such concepts are largely dependent on opponents, image, etc., but generally speaking, do you do this often at 200NL? How about at 100NL?

[/ QUOTE ]

This works at NL$100, which is where you will find regular spots to try it. At NL$200 it is very useful against the 23/12ish regulars that seem to live there.

[Yaboosh]

If you are careful, you can profitably do this against many 25NL and 50NL players as well, you just have to be sure you are doing it against the right sorts of folks.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
At what limits will concepts like 3-betting light become necessary?

db: I understand that such concepts are largely dependent on opponents, image, etc., but generally speaking, do you do this often at 200NL? How about at 100NL?

[/ QUOTE ]

i do this against certain people at 50nl a ton. they constantly will either a. fold to my 3 bet prelop or b. call my 3 bet and then fold to a cbet. assuming u have a good read on villian this can make u so much bank against the regulars.

[delta k]

question, what size is good for a rr? 100BB stacks, 100nl, UTG1 makes it $4, I make it...$14? $12? $20?

[kaz2107]

14 sounds good to me

[delta k]

[ QUOTE ]
14 sounds good to me

[/ QUOTE ]

what do we expect him to call/fold? what do we want him to call with/fold?

[redCashion]

I think you should make it $12. 3-betting light is costly enough without making it 3.5-betting.

[munkey]

vnh post dbitel and nice links too orange.

I will digest this l8er and have only recently got into 3betting more, maybe it's because of the NL100 players.

I rrz to 12 or 14 @ NL100 depends, usually 14.

[ QUOTE ]


i think pot control would be a really good idea


[/ QUOTE ]

Someone tell Jam so he can post some sick hands.

[Shaddux]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should make it $12. 3-betting light is costly enough without making it 3.5-betting.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think the "3" in "3-betting" refers to the size of the raise...

[JCCARL]

well done db. Lots of good stuff in OP
Reegards,
Carl

[markum9]

I've started to try this out a little more often at $50NL 6-max. One thing that wasn't mentioned but I believe comes into play is stack-size. If someone's sitting with 40BB, you basically price yourself in by 3-betting if he either 4-bets all-in or leads the flop. Also, certain players seem much more likely to say F-it and push with non-premium hands when short-stacked so you lose some of your FE.

[Dan Bitel]

markum,

sorry. Very good point. Meant to put in in OP, but forgot.

3-betting light should not be done unless stacks are 80BB+ deep

[pureklas]

[ QUOTE ]
SSNL Jam/db/etc thread on 3-betting (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=5613306&amp;page=0&amp;fpart=1&amp;v c=1)

dan bright and the real blinds (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=7833218&amp;page=1&amp;fpart=all &amp;vc=1&amp;nt=2)

Okay, here are two links that might help. The second one doesn't have to really do with 3-betting as a main point, but rather that the button is the real blind, not the $ you put in. This thought should be taken into account when 3-betting light (your position). sometimes, it isn't as necessary to 3-bet as light in position (as written by dan in his post) as you negate some of your control of the pot when rr-ing. Thats not to say that you shouldnt still be 3-betting light on the button, but that you should maybe take into account what type of hand/opponent/flow your table is.

Don't really have many hands atm, but our next week's topic should be 4-betting light /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me Dan's idea contradicts the whole 3 betting theory. In fact he advocates calling in postion.

[Grumbo]

dbitel,

Just a quick question. I assume the overbet of the pot in your example here is because this is now not a c bet but a value bet?

Thanks.


[ QUOTE ]
Important note on cbeting in reraised pots:

DO NOT BET AS MUCH AS YOU WOULD DO IN A NORMAL POT! Your cbets in reraised pots should be between 1/2 pot and 2/3 pot, NOT more. The reasons for this is that normally you either have air as you're 3-betting light and so we dont have to take it down as often if we bet less. OR we have a very good hand, and due to pot/stack size ratio, we can get AI very easily by not betting all that much.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

This guy is a 23/16 TAG, who I had been 3betting light the whole time, and had finally tilted him:

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $214.90
UTG+1: $142
CO: $218.55
Button: $343.10
SB: $147
Hero: $484.30

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG calls, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $9</font>, SB calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $38</font>, 2 folds, SB calls.

Flop: 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif ($87, 2 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $109</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB calls all-in $109</font>.


[/ QUOTE ]

[orange]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SSNL Jam/db/etc thread on 3-betting (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=5613306&amp;page=0&amp;fpart=1&amp;v c=1)

dan bright and the real blinds (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=7833218&amp;page=1&amp;fpart=all &amp;vc=1&amp;nt=2)

Okay, here are two links that might help. The second one doesn't have to really do with 3-betting as a main point, but rather that the button is the real blind, not the $ you put in. This thought should be taken into account when 3-betting light (your position). sometimes, it isn't as necessary to 3-bet as light in position (as written by dan in his post) as you negate some of your control of the pot when rr-ing. Thats not to say that you shouldnt still be 3-betting light on the button, but that you should maybe take into account what type of hand/opponent/flow your table is.

Don't really have many hands atm, but our next week's topic should be 4-betting light /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me Dan's idea contradicts the whole 3 betting theory. In fact he advocates calling in postion.

[/ QUOTE ]
He does. Which is why I said to consider your position when 3-betting with less than premium hands. I would say that I definitely 3-bet more frequently OOP than in position.

[Requin]

Nice post. Probably worth mentioning that the deeper you get, the less you want to 3-bet OOP, because as stated in Dan's post position becomes more powerful with deeper stacks. Also, I never saw cts's blog before, I'm glad I wasn't the example of his strategy tilting someone!

[Dan Bitel]

Grumbo,

yeah, its for value

requin,

IMO, the deeper you are, the wider your 3-betting range should be in general

[Ratamahatta]

Good post. I think you forgot to mention that it's not a good idea to 3-bet shortstacks because your c-bet will put them all in, most of the time they will call your c-bet light with bottom pair and because they are idiots.

The stack size is very important as well because you will have a lot of implied odds when hero and villain have 200bb stacks. In this case it is more profitable to 3-bet with 87s.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should make it $12. 3-betting light is costly enough without making it 3.5-betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's not why it's called 3betting

[HouseCalls]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks DB

[/ QUOTE ]

EMC - These concepts threads are very helpful - can we add them as a new section in the "Essential Selection of uNL" thread??

[redCashion]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you should make it $12. 3-betting light is costly enough without making it 3.5-betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's not why it's called 3betting

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, that was mentioned earlier. My bad.

[BalugaWhale]

Dbitel-

This type of pf action is not necessary for generally passive low stakes games. The original raiser will not be raising light enough to make this useful, unless you remember to use it only against TAG's and LAG's with wide and defined PF ranges.

I 3bet a TON in position and to resteal from the blinds in the ridic aggro 2/4 games. I 4bet some. It is NOT something I recommend for 50nl. Its a good post but its better suited for higher stakes imo.

That said microNLers, keep this post in mind as you move up. 3betting is useful at 100nl, very useful at 200nl, and indespensible at 400nl.

[TripleJ]

[ QUOTE ]
In this thread you should post HH's showing situations where the concept was applied effectively as well as examples of poor usage of the concept.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not too many people have posted hand examples, and I want opinions on whether: (1) my PF 3bet was good; (2) the cbet was good; (3) the river call was correct.

My read on villain: probably a 2p2er. raises PF every time in CO or Button if folded to. Almost always takes a shot at my big blind when the table folds to us. Also likes to attack limpers/prevent family pots from the blinds. Postflop, observant &amp; aggressive. Never had to show down a hand in the last hour, which is why I can't say for sure that he's loose, although I suspect he is.

This was my first preflop 3bet of the session (1.5 hours at the time), but I had been caught raising light and cbetting with air a fair number of times.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $24.55
CO: $31.25
Button: $6.45
SB: $42.40
Hero: $26.60

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG folds, CO calls, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $1</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $4</font>, CO folds, SB calls.

Flop: 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($8.25, 2 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $6</font>, SB calls.

Turn: K/images/graemlins/club.gif ($20.25, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $4</font>, Hero calls.

River: 3/images/graemlins/club.gif ($28.25, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB is all-in $28.4</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero calls all-in $12.6</font>.
Uncalled bets: $15.8 returned to SB.

Results:
Final pot: $53.45

[orange]

Triple,
I don't like your 3-bet PF much. KJ is a dominated hand which is hard to play OOP. I would rather 3-bet here with either a very strong hand (ie. AK) or something like a SC.

I think given your PF play, your flop play is standard. Turn is okay, another option is to just shove (he might call with a hand like TT). River is okay, though I can't really see too many hands you beat.

[floppy]

If we're doing this for FE pre-flop and with a cb, why aren't people suggesting doing this with their worst hands? Why make it more expensive to play a hand that has a decent chance of improving on the flop? OOP this makes more sense, per Dan's article that Orange referred to, but in position we can call, and even float the flop if we didn't hit, but think the OOP raiser is FOS.

I realize that this is read dependent, but against fit-or-fold types, shouldn't we strongly consider 3-betting with trash since FE will dominate the money you make?

In a similar vein, how often would you recommend 3-betting light, in proportion to light raises against you?